Roller Cammed 318/360

[LJS30]

Since I own a vehicle with a 5.0HO I know that one of the aspects of that engine that make it a good street performer bone stock is the fact that it is roller cammed. I have heard that roller cams allow for more aggressive cams with a better idle and overall more efficiency than the other cam designs. With that said I don't hear about too many roller cammed engines on this board. I have read about alot of hot setups but none really focused on the roller cammed aspect. Is this correct? Or am I missing something, which could be a possibility considering I am a rookie.

 

[BJR Racing]

Theres nothing wrong with a roller cam, other than the expense, and there are plenty of grinds other than a roller that will make the same power or more for less $$$$$. Most people dont have the patients to handle a high maintaince engine that the roller will need. Most like to have sound and good performance and not mess with it all the time IMO.

 

[rumblefish360]

Well, the Hyd. rollers should not be high maintaince.

LJS30, the "LA" S/B engines were roller for a very short time. Only a couple of years and not massivly produced. Also, mostly in a 318 size, but the 360 also did come as a roller motor. These were stopped when the change of head design went to the Magnum style. Basicly, the Magnum engine is a slight mod. of the "LA" and that lasted only a few years. There just starting to become cheap enuff to get from a wrecker.

Most guys shy away from paying 3 times the money for a cam than they noramlly would. Also, like BJR was saying, the Hyd. cams can be had with a very steep ramp. The secrect is the .904 lifter. It can handle a ramp nearly as steep and quick as a roller. Key word, nearly.
When the cams reach a track only useage level, like a race only cam, not just a really big whooping street/strip[ cam, but a race cam, the roller has the advantage of course, but not even then there not normally used even when chasing the money. It isn't a mandatory change/mod to do.

Theres also more to making use of a roller than just slipping it in like a 5.0 engine. It is an involved issue for not really much more power. The old Mopar books have the mods spelled out. Drill and the peen the oil passage way and the peen is used down the lifter bore to clearance the tube thats inserted in the oil passage you drilled. Bushing lifters are a mods also sometimes done. To correct angle and safe guard the lifters and oil pressure in case of failure.
It's alot of work.

Just until recent, the cam companys came out with retro fits. I think there 20 years late on this issue and will have to understand that they'll probably not turn a profit on something this late in the game no matter how much they think there the cats meow.

The nice thing about the Fords and there stangs is they come equiped with many things we just simply do not have and pay alot for.
Excellent for the time and allways getting better fuel injection and ignition thats computer controled and good aftermarket support on mods. 5 spd tranny, roller cam in a car called a "Sports car" were the MoPar camp doesn't have a V-8 sports car. Oh wait, we don't have one since what????????' 1974 when the Cuda and Challenger went away?

Sorry guys, the later 4 bangers just don't cut it. While not bad at all for what they are, they are what they are. Sport cars on a everyday passenger car platform. OR, just not up to task.

 

[LJS30]

Well, the Hyd. rollers should not be high maintaince.

LJS30, the "LA" S/B engines were roller for a very short time. Only a couple of years and not massivly produced. Also, mostly in a 318 size, but the 360 also did come as a roller motor. These were stopped when the change of head design went to the Magnum style. Basicly, the Magnum engine is a slight mod. of the "LA" and that lasted only a few years. There just starting to become cheap enuff to get from a wrecker.

Most guys shy away from paying 3 times the money for a cam than they noramlly would. Also, like BJR was saying, the Hyd. cams can be had with a very steep ramp. The secrect is the .904 lifter. It can handle a ramp nearly as steep and quick as a roller. Key word, nearly.
When the cams reach a track only useage level, like a race only cam, not just a really big whooping street/strip[ cam, but a race cam, the roller has the advantage of course, but not even then there not normally used even when chasing the money. It isn't a mandatory change/mod to do.

Theres also more to making use of a roller than just slipping it in like a 5.0 engine. It is an involved issue for not really much more power. The old Mopar books have the mods spelled out. Drill and the peen the oil passage way and the peen is used down the lifter bore to clearance the tube thats inserted in the oil passage you drilled. Bushing lifters are a mods also sometimes done. To correct angle and safe guard the lifters and oil pressure in case of failure.
It's alot of work.

Just until recent, the cam companys came out with retro fits. I think there 20 years late on this issue and will have to understand that they'll probably not turn a profit on something this late in the game no matter how much they think there the cats meow.

The nice thing about the Fords and there stangs is they come equiped with many things we just simply do not have and pay alot for.
Excellent for the time and allways getting better fuel injection and ignition thats computer controled and good aftermarket support on mods. 5 spd tranny, roller cam in a car called a "Sports car" were the MoPar camp doesn't have a V-8 sports car. Oh wait, we don't have one since what????????' 1974 when the Cuda and Challenger went away?

Sorry guys, the later 4 bangers just don't cut it. While not bad at all for what they are, they are what they are. Sport cars on a everyday passenger car platform. OR, just not up to task.

Thanks for the explanation guys. The idea just hit me the other day while thinking about mods for my 5.0HO. The thought of a roller cammed 318 sounded very intriguing yet somewhat elusive since most of the experienced guys weren't really doing the roller cammed route.

 

[ramcharger]

Everything above is correct and I might add that aftermarket roller cams were not known for thier reliability on the street. Thier needle bearings relied on oil splash from the cam which is non-existant at idle, hence many guys found themselves with a motor full of needle bearings and a trashed cam. That's a very, very expensive repair, not to mention the tow bill. If the lifters were replaced on a regular basis, these problems could be minimized, but that's still an expensive and maintenance intensive proposition as BJR had previously mentioned.

As Rumblefish said, retrofit roller rockers are available now for the LA series engines that now have oil passages to supply pressurized oil to the roller bearings that should negate the extended idle reliability problems that had previously plagued this style of lifter. There is also a company that makes a roller lifter that rides on a ceramic bearing surface, negating the exploding roller bearing problems.

OK, that being said, the power gains that would be seen on a street Mopar with a hydraulic roller lifter is not as much as would be seen on a Chevy or Ford due to the Mopar's .904 lifter that allows it to run a cam with more lifter acceleration. In the hydraulic rollers lifters favor, you have a bit more power and a broader torque curve, the ability to swap cams without installing lifters, no oil additive worries, no cam break in and reduced friction.

Where a solid roller cam really shines is in a race or radical street/strip application where you can run insane valve spring pressures (read 6500+rpm style builds) that would tear up a flat lifter cam in no time flat.

So, now you have to decide what's important to you in a street engine. $1000 for cam, lifters and bronze oil pump/distributor gear for maybe 20 ft lbs of torque and 15 hp but no oil or cam break in worries, or less than $200 for really good performing street cam but with the usual oil and break in routine?

 

[LJS30]

Everything above is correct and I might add that aftermarket roller cams were not known for thier reliability on the street. Thier needle bearings relied on oil splash from the cam which is non-existant at idle, hence many guys found themselves with a motor full of needle bearings and a trashed cam. That's a very, very expensive repair, not to mention the tow bill. If the lifters were replaced on a regular basis, these problems could be minimized, but that's still an expensive and maintenance intensive proposition as BJR had previously mentioned.

As Rumblefish said, retrofit roller rockers are available now for the LA series engines that now have oil passages to supply pressurized oil to the roller bearings that should negate the extended idle reliability problems that had previously plagued this style of lifter. There is also a company that makes a roller lifter that rides on a ceramic bearing surface, negating the exploding roller bearing problems.

OK, that being said, the power gains that would be seen on a street Mopar with a hydraulic roller lifter is not as much as would be seen on a Chevy or Ford due to the Mopar's .904 lifter that allows it to run a cam with more lifter acceleration. In the hydraulic rollers lifters favor, you have a bit more power and a broader torque curve, the ability to swap cams without installing lifters, no oil additive worries, no cam break in and reduced friction.

Where a solid roller cam really shines is in a race or radical street/strip application where you can run insane valve spring pressures (read 6500+rpm style builds) that would tear up a flat lifter cam in no time flat.

So, now you have to decide what's important to you in a street engine. $1000 for cam, lifters and bronze oil pump/distributor gear for maybe 20 ft lbs of torque and 15 hp but no oil or cam break in worries, or less than $200 for really good performing street cam but with the usual oil and break in routine?

I see, point taken.

 

[rumblefish360]

Nice addition there buddy, er ramcharger.

The thing with the roller cam in the past, also, is there were no real street grinds. Only the brave or crazy did them. And they were large cams even by todays standards. Poor idle quality and power bands that start @ 4,000. Hell, the assoc. parts made for a real mean machine power plant, but not exactly what 90% of the people are looking for that monster.

Todays roller cams for the street will out power the similar solid or quick ramp Hyd. cams like said above, but the best thing about them is they do give out a better nicer broader torque curve that has very real world useage. The argument on roller vs. quick ramp Hyd. is often a bitter one when engauged. Both sides make very valid points to there use. It now becomes tasters choice.

Now, Crane and Comp to a degree offer smaller rollers for everyday useage in power bands that start as low as 1500 rpm's and emissions leagal cams that have starting rpm point as low as 800.

Another porblem with the MoPar camp is the corp. (Chrysler) did not make very flexable computers for cam changes or much anything else. Ealy Dakotas and Rams where you could find roller motors were held hostage to the computers narrow parameters and the tail pipe emission testers. Re-flashing or replacement was out. No such or true rare animal.

The future of these truck Magnum engines are junk yard or possible hot rod truck. The hot rod truck will have to wait until there in excess of 25 years old in New York to be exempt form tail pipe testing and free to hot rod as seen fit. Once there this old, there computer can be tossed/replaced or reinvented.
It is a long time to wait.

 

[ramcharger]

The future of these truck Magnum engines are junk yard or possible hot rod truck. The hot rod truck will have to wait until there in excess of 25 years old in New York to be exempt form tail pipe testing and free to hot rod as seen fit.

Or.....you could get the Magnum out of a truck and drop it into the 25 year old or older a-body of your choice! Might be a cheap way to get a roller cam engine? What do you think Rumble?

 

[dgc333]

Since I own a vehicle with a 5.0HO I know that one of the aspects of that engine that make it a good street performer bone stock is the fact that it is roller cammed. I have heard that roller cams allow for more aggressive cams with a better idle and overall more efficiency than the other cam designs. With that said I don't hear about too many roller cammed engines on this board. I have read about alot of hot setups but none really focused on the roller cammed aspect. Is this correct? Or am I missing something, which could be a possibility considering I am a rookie.

I believe the 5.0 went to a roller cam about the same time (maybe a year or two earlier) than mopar went to a roller cam in the 5.2 and the 5.2/5.9 lasted beyond when the 5.0 was replaced with the 4.6 mod motor.

The OEM's went to a roller cam as much for friction reduction for improved economy & longevity as for any performance improvement. The roller cams in 5.0's and mopar 3.9/5.2/5.9 engines are quite mild compared to the flat tappet cams we typically use in our engines.

 

[340mopar]

There is one simple reason the 5.0 roller was popular and the Mopar rollers weren't, the Mustang. Ford had a rear wheel drive pony car and Mopar didn't. People and the aftermarket aren't going to build engine stuff for a Diplomat or a truck but there is a market in the Mustang.


Chuck

 

[66dartgt]

The only thing stopping you from doing a roller hydraulic cammed motor relatively cheaply is finding a 360 or 318 that was built stock that way to begin with. I did it with an LA headed 360 about 7-8 years ago. At that time there was little in the way of hydraulic performance roller cams for small block mopars, so I was kind of in uncharted waters.

After studying cam profiles and talking with comp cams about the project, I made some choices. Their thought was that the stock mopar roller tappets would be fine but the big key was getting the correct valve spring open and closed pressures.

The cam I used was a custom grind from comp cams - the springs were a little tricky. After alot of digging - I found some Isky springs that fit the bill for my grind that did not require spring pocket machining. Used the stock mopar roller hyd lifters and went with adjustable valve train. Custom length pushrods were neccessary. Again - This was a LA headed engine.

You may end up spending around 200-400 bucks more doing it this way, assuming that you would end up using adjustable valve train anyway with other types of perf cams. You could also have the original roller cam reground to a new profile as well to maybe save some $. Hughes engines used to offer this service.

Personally i found the exercise of piecing this thing together an interesting project and the result was quite good. Car runs well and has tons of torque - which is what I wanted.

 

[rumblefish360]

Or.....you could get the Magnum out of a truck and drop it into the 25 year old or older a-body of your choice! Might be a cheap way to get a roller cam engine? What do you think Rumble?

66dartgt, ramcharger; Yes and no. You can roller a non roller block. Not thinking about expense here. The expense just sucks when all you have is lint. He he he. But getting a Magnum engine and sliding out the OE shft in favor of a Crane Comp , that'll work. Just gotta make sure you get a short snout cam or have the thicker timing cover on hand.

I myself have a late 80 early 90 non-Magnum roller block I'm waiting for funding for. It's an ill machined MP 10-1 short block that had poor work and clearances done on it.

 

[ramcharger]

66dartgt: Good for you man! As hot rodders, we are really scientists transforming theorem into fact, with the dragstrip, garage and the seat of our pants as the lab. Crane as well as Comp will make any cam for us, as long as we have a a few extra bucks mixed in with the lint (as Rumble so aptly put it!). The last engine I built (the one in my avatar) for my Ramcharger is an experiment and I probably have more time in the heads and valve train than the rest of the engine. Custom pushrods, custom rockershaft spacers (no spring spacers for me!), lifter preload on the button at .040, and the closest to vertical pushrod angle I could manage without installing pushrod tubes, plus more than I can mention on this post.

Rumble: I would think the machine work that may be reqiured would easily offset the cost of retrofit lifter. Of course I'm sure that that's what you're thinking too! I'm guessing that you dont want to go with a true Magnum block due to the head limitations? Fill us in! Could there be a way to tap into an oil galley and still run W-2's, W-5's etc?

 

[rumblefish360]

Rumble: I would think the machine work that may be reqiured would easily offset the cost of retrofit lifter.

I'm missing something. Extra ( $$$$) machine work to fit in a roller? Some or all blocks require clearanceing for the lifters. I'm not to up on what lifters need what or how much of anything.
Lenwiler (SP?) is doing a R block with roller cam. Look at his thread.

Could there be a way to tap into an oil galley and still run W-2's, W-5's etc?

The machine work on a Magnum?
On a Magnum engine block, you can drill out the oil passage way to oil feed a "LA" head. This is not a problem so long as the drill bit is long enuff. ;)

The Machine work to my non-magnum roller block.

The machine work required for my MP short block will start with re-decking the block and finishing up with a full blue printed block. I guess I could cheap out.....he he he.
From there, I hope the decks aren't in the basement as such to cause extreme head milling. I'd like to be able to just swap intakes at will if I could.
Also, if I had it my way, it would be LP Comandos on top of a roller cammed engine. But it is just a pipe dream at this point.

I'm guessing that you dont want to go with a true Magnum block due to the head limitations?

They can be overcome I believe. But with the amount of "LA" head gear I have, why bother at this point.
I would get a Magnum engine and drill it out and go from there.
You could slip in a older engine block roller cam and just fit a older cover. (Thicker than a magnums)
To add mech fuel pump, just follow the rest of a OE style set up of the older engines.

 

[ramcharger]

I'm missing something. Extra ( $$$$) machine work to fit in a roller? Some or all blocks require clearanceing for the lifters. I'm not to up on what lifters need what or how much of anything.

You had mentioned that you have a pre-magnum roller block that had been poorly machined and not properly clearanced. Therefore, the machine work required for this block would be less than the cost of retrofit lifters, which would be needed on a older LA block that did not need any machine work. Does that make sense? :sign6:

I was pretty tired last night, worked on the truck till midnight. I apologize if I wasn't being clear.

 

[koryliss]

Heads up on your machining issue - some blocks do not allow it. Attached is a picture of a resto 340 block (similar to R3) that was ruined by such an attempt!
(the threaded hole between the lifter bores was for ceramic lifters .... another story!)

Other point is Mopar's large diameter lifters - you can run fairly aggressive ramps without needing a roller.

Kory