Rollout vs ET

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  1. LowDeck451

    LowDeck451 Well-Known Member

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    Wondering what difference in ET you guys have seen in shallow staging vs deep staging in let’s say, 12-13 second cars (and faster cars if you want to comment, tall tires vs short tires etc. that would be interesting too). Is it a whole tenth? More? Less? I’ve always wondered but never made enough runs to be consistent enough to try it.
     
  2. 318willrun

    318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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    I always shallow stage for my "rolling 6" start". I usually do it because I'm foot braking and when I lift the brakes, I'm trying to give them an extra 100th of a second to release... LOL I've not seen a tenth....
     
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    • 413

      413 Well-Known Member

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      Tenth and a half on the same day. 12.80 to 12.95. 27” tall front tire, 1.90 60 foot. High 12 sec ETs at 107 mph. The car is consistent, slow moving at the hit and pulling at the finish line. I raced full tree pro bracket and a pro tree bracket in the same day so I was staged shallow on full tree and deep staged top bulb out on pro tree.
      So it’s a tall tire and a slow moving car with top end power. Your mileage may vary if you have a 1.70 sixty foot.
       
    • LowDeck451

      LowDeck451 Well-Known Member

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      For sure, I always shallow staged the handful of times I’ve run at the track to get the little ‘run at the starting line’, just wondering how much difference it might make. A couple years ago my buddy was trying to crack into the 11s, as he got against the converter, he crept deeper into the beams, then went 12.05. I told him “I bet that was your 11 if you hadn’t pushed in deeper.”
       
    • LowDeck451

      LowDeck451 Well-Known Member

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      Wow, that much. That’s interesting, thanks.
       
    • B3422w5

      B3422w5 Well-Known Member

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      I always get in shallow bracket racing on a full tree. Just barely popping on the bottom bulb.
      The reason is because that is the only spot that is repeatable, you know exactly where the car is that way. Any place else you dont( at least in a door car)
      I try to get as deep as i can on a pro tree, to react quicker..
      Less distance to break the beam.
      That all said, in all my years of racing, never seen more than a couple or three difference.
      Its only 8 inches, it cant be more than that, otherwise you have changed something
       
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      • Locomotion

        Locomotion Well-Known Member

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        I don't have specific numbers, but since quicker and consistent RT's win more races than faster ET's, I always focused on the RT's. However, I have staged shallower than normal and other changes for a few heads-up races over the years.

        Nibbling away for better RT's is similar to trying to take 100 lbs out of a car to gain a tenth in ET. (i.e.: take 1 lb out of 100 locations.) Physics guarantees an improvement, but it's not obvious till you start adding up the 1 lbs. Carb response, converter, traction, suspension tuning, staging/launch rpms, etc. are all factors. But there are more! Higher tire pressures (within reason), solid motor mounts, poly trans mounts, aluminum spring eye bushings, frame connectors and properly triangulated roll bar/cage also help. The less WASTED movement there is (flex, twist, mount compression, etc.), the more efficient the car will be at moving it forward. *****A note on the tires - more air pressure actually raises the tire off the ground showing less distance front-to-back at the photocell level, so it leaves the beams quicker. On the flip side, a tire with lower pressure, flat as an extreme example, provides more distance from front-to-back at the photocell level, so it takes a little longer to leave the beams. I know some people who actually vary their rear tire pressure for more or less wrinkle (wasted motion), but without compromising traction. Air pressure is a good fine tuning aid.

        Also, it's best to do your comparisons at the same track. RT's can vary due to the track! Different timing systems, slight photocell height variations, track wear and rubber build-up can all make minor differences. There are tracks that can have .05 or more differences compared to other tracks. Some even have a few hundredths between lanes.....at the same track! Lots of variables to be aware of.
         
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        • LowDeck451

          LowDeck451 Well-Known Member

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        • LowDeck451

          LowDeck451 Well-Known Member

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          I’ve wondered why Stock Elim. guys run the tall front tires when RT is so important. I can see why the Super classes want the short tire, I would think the Stockers would too, unless they’re racing class or chasing a record and want every bit of run at the tree they can get.
           
        • LowDeck451

          LowDeck451 Well-Known Member

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          B3422w5
          Never more than two or three ‘hundredths’ in ET? I’d have guessed more.
           
        • 70aarcuda

          70aarcuda Master Hoader of SBM FABO Gold Member

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          The roll out helps there ET....you just leave at a different spot on the tree...
           
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          • 318willrun

            318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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            It's enough to get a 14.00 car into the 13's.... 13.98
             
          • LowDeck451

            LowDeck451 Well-Known Member

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            LOL I’m just looking for opinions because I’ve never tried it. Big difference between a couple hundredths and a tenth and a half though! ‍
             
          • famous bob

            famous bob mopar misfit

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            bottom line is , run the tallest/lightest tire on the front u can find, longer in the beam, so u can get a run at the tree - leave earlier and not redlight .
             
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            • flyfish

              flyfish C8H18+N2O = :-D

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              ^^^^This, 100%. Shallow is the only repeatable way to go (although putting out the top bulb is reputable, some places won't honor deep staging).

              The only time I go deep is on 0.400 Pro tree and Instant Green tree races....and then it is only to help my reaction time. If I go deeper the car slows a few hundredths of a second (low 10 second car).....the pro tree and instant green stuff is usually index, so I'm driving the stripe.
               
            • thesiren74

              thesiren74 Well-Known Member

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              Yep.
               
            • pittsburghracer

              pittsburghracer Well-Known Member

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              Watching a local “hitter” I know for a fact it’s more than a .10 in a ten second 6.60 car. His Dad gets pissed when he does it because as an engine builder he would rather see the performance out of the engines he builds for him. But it works for him. He does his burnout and coasts through the beams like a dragster. The he slowly back up till BOTH lights are on then bumps in DEEP. (Legal as last move is forward) He and many other racers do this so they know exactly where their car is in the beams.
               
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              • 413

                413 Well-Known Member

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                It’s good to know ALL the details of the car VS how much change for deep or shallow. How tall of a tire, ET, and the 60’ times are a must to compare this. Add in the rear gear ratio and if it’s a 2 speed or a 3 speed.

                It depends what the SLR is and how fast it moves at the hit.

                Huge rollout difference between a 24” and a 28” front tire.

                Many variables
                 
              • 33IMP

                33IMP Well-Known Member

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                The stock/super stock guys run the tall tires because yhey give more rollout, making the car appear faster. They adjust when they leave on the tree to account for it.
                I run 23x5 frontrunners on a protree car, partly because they fit (very small front wheelwel), but mostly for reaction time. I have 165x15 on the full tree car, but leaving on the light where im comfortable gets me too many red lights, so im gonna try 235/75x15s. They are almost five inches taller. Reaction time will be slower, car will appear faster. If i dont like the change, easy to change back.
                 
                Last edited: Mar 19, 2021
              • flyfish

                flyfish C8H18+N2O = :-D

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                Its interesting to see what is allowed at various tracks...if anyone in a door car did that at my local track they would get thrown out (no joke). They don't let door cars do burnouts over the start line (no John Force style burnouts for door cars)....and if ANY car (door car or dragster) goes over the staging beams the starter will make them back COMPLETELY out of the beams before staging.
                 
              • pittsburghracer

                pittsburghracer Well-Known Member

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                Don’t read anymore into what I said please. They do their burnout and coast past the beams. All of our local east coast tracks allow one back-up for the faster classes and they are putting this rule into play. Do I do it??? No Sir.
                 
              • flyfish

                flyfish C8H18+N2O = :-D

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                Not reading anything into it, I just find it interesting how different tracks have very different rules surrounding staging. :thumbsup:
                 
              • 33IMP

                33IMP Well-Known Member

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                Yep . Around here deep stage on a pro tree is strictly verboten.
                 
              • Ceedawg

                Ceedawg Well-Known Member

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                They’re two stepping, reacting on last bulb, reaction time slow, adjust the rpm. Nothing but a bracket race, bag till you run someone in your class. Some adjust brake pressure, using a switch off the brake pedal. High or low pressure changes rt. Also changing air pressure in tire will move it around. Back in the day racers would stagger the front wheels as much as 3” lol leave on the first bulb. Timer don’t start till you break the beam so one heck of a jump start, some would put the car in on an angle, then get the car to pull hard in that angle.i keep remembering this junk lol
                 
                Last edited: Mar 19, 2021
              • Ceedawg

                Ceedawg Well-Known Member

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                Way back in the day my Max wedge was slow off the line, couldn’t afford a good vert. On a whim I pulled thru the light then backed up till the bulb came on, I anticipated the green bulb went four rounds that nite. ET difference was almost 2 tenths for my car! But high gear was hold on Nellie.
                 
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