Small Block Oil Pick Up Tube Question

-
grimreaper

grimreaper

Cross Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
3,550
Reaction score
1,191
Location
Gillette, WY
Can anyone provide information on what modifications have been used to allow a greater flow of oil into the oil pump? I have applied several oiling system modifications thanks to the great write up by Guitar Jones but I have a mid sump pan in a passenger car so there is no room for the pick up tubes from Canton or Champ with the tube going into the bottom plate of the pump. I have a Moroso and a Miodon pickup tube which are suppose to be high capacity but they both neck down to a small diameter to fit the 3/8 NPT pump threading. I can drill them to 7/16" but that is still the bottleneck in the system when everything else is opened to 1/2". Has anyone got some creative ideas to get a proper amount of oil into the pump other than drilling the pump and brazing a 1/2"ID tube in?
 
Hamburger or somebody use to make a set-up that had a second pick-up fitting in the oil pump cover for one of their oil pans. It had a hose connecting it and the 2nd tube from the pick-up. The primary tube "may" have been solid. But with this and any other custom set-ups, you have to worry about the tube possibly breaking from vibration. I don't remember if it had any kind of support bracket, but a well thought out support bracket would be a good idea anyway.

I believe the Milodon SS pan has a set-up with a bigger feed hole from the cover, but it may go straight down for the rear sump.
 
When i got my Kevco pan it claimed to have better flowing pickup, do to thinner side wall. and it is better than the stock pickup............but at the end of the day, a 3/8 pipe thread is still 3/8.

At that point you have to be a fab guy or find one that will fab up a larger pipe and go drilling on the oil pump.

I was a little bit worried about it cracking going to the next size.....so i settled for the kevko pan and pickup.
 
The suction side is big enough unless you have an open oil passage somewhere in the block. Opening the ports leaving the pump are to the filter . You don't want to suck the pan dry. No oil is worse than to little oil.
 
Belt driven pumps are for Hi rev motors such as a sprint car or nascar. your stock pickup should be big enough for a street car or a 1/4 mile
 
Locomotion said:
Hamburger or somebody use to make a set-up that had a second pick-up fitting in the oil pump cover for one of their oil pans. It had a hose connecting it and the 2nd tube from the pick-up. The primary tube "may" have been solid. But with this and any other custom set-ups, you have to worry about the tube possibly breaking from vibration. I don't remember if it had any kind of support bracket, but a well thought out support bracket would be a good idea anyway.

I believe the Milodon SS pan has a set-up with a bigger feed hole from the cover, but it may go straight down for the rear sump.
Click to expand...

I called Milodon this past week they no longer make the pump kit with the pickup on the bottom. part # 19000 I think it was.

Personaly I want my pump to have oil waiting to go in the 1/2 in passages. Not the passage sitting there saying hey send me up some more oil would you.

The Guitar Jones oil mods are a part of the old kit car engine mods. At the time Mopar sold the dual line kit that bolted to the bottom and also used the stock location of the pump. Of course there went the way of the doedoe bird. The second pickup had a rubber hose so you could screw in the pipe to the stock location. Then slip on and clamp the second one.
 
When I did the engine for my old 77 W150 it was easy because of the rear sump. I just got a pick up from Champ Oil Pans which has the large tube mounted to the bottom plate and modified it just a little. Of course that didn't really even need much for oil mods as it only rapped to about 6200. But, I always prefer to err on the oily side!
 
If you want oil immediately you might want to look into an accumulator system.
They store oil in a spring loaded tank so when you turn the ignition on it pushes the stored oil into the engine passages before it even starts.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
The suction side is big enough unless you have an open oil passage somewhere in the block. Opening the ports leaving the pump are to the filter . You don't want to suck the pan dry. No oil is worse than to little oil.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but you are just dead wrong.

You can't get the inlet side big enough. There are published tests out there. That is why the Milodon SS pan had a rear sump and the big single pick up in the cover. If you are going to wind it up, you need to use the big tube in the cover and a second pickup that is 3/8 and goes into the original threaded hole in the pump.

You can't suck the pan dry unless you have no oil control. It's practically impossible.
 
grimreaper said:
Can anyone provide information on what modifications have been used to allow a greater flow of oil into the oil pump? I have applied several oiling system modifications thanks to the great write up by Guitar Jones but I have a mid sump pan in a passenger car so there is no room for the pick up tubes from Canton or Champ with the tube going into the bottom plate of the pump. I have a Moroso and a Miodon pickup tube which are suppose to be high capacity but they both neck down to a small diameter to fit the 3/8 NPT pump threading. I can drill them to 7/16" but that is still the bottleneck in the system when everything else is opened to 1/2". Has anyone got some creative ideas to get a proper amount of oil into the pump other than drilling the pump and brazing a 1/2"ID tube in?
Click to expand...

I got this idea from Rapid Robert to drill the pickup passage to 11/16 and tap it with a 1/2npt tap. You have to have a pump housing that the pickup hole is in the center an not drilled off to one side to do this.

The hole is not deburred in the center picture yet.

I'm using a Small Block 727 dipstick tube to make my new pickup at the moment but will probably cut the end off of the Milodon pickup then thread it, screw it in to the coupler and weld it to it.

I also did the Guitar Jone mods and use a stock center sump pan.

OK now everybody tell me how it won't work and will suck my pan dry.
 

Attachments

  • 1stacked.jpg
    23 KB · Views: 610
  • 1big hole.jpg
    43.5 KB · Views: 627
  • 3 tubes.jpg
    25.6 KB · Views: 613
Oldmanmopar said:
The suction side is big enough unless you have an open oil passage somewhere in the block..................
Click to expand...

yellow rose said:
I'm sorry but you are just dead wrong.

You can't get the inlet side big enough. There are published tests out there. That is why the Milodon SS pan had a rear sump and the big single pick up in the cover. If you are going to wind it up, you need to use the big tube in the cover and a second pickup that is 3/8 and goes into the original threaded hole in the pump.

You can't suck the pan dry unless you have no oil control. It's practically impossible.
Click to expand...

That is basically what he said. "unless you have an open."

You NEVER want to restrict the inlet to any pump. This can cause cavitation, among other things.
 
Did you just sort through pumps until you found one you could drill and tap? I've got seven housings and every one is offset far enough that it could not make room for 1/2 pipe. I tried the best one a few weeks ago to make sure, and it was far too thin on one side. Do I just need to keep looking at parts houses? Seems like someone would make a pump to solve the problem. :-(
 
I drilled one and brazed in a larger tube grafted to a Milodon pickup. Thanks for the 727 dipstick tube idea! Does the crank throw clear the bell reducer? Is your engine a stroker? Mine is pretty close to the larger tube as it is with a 4.125 crank so I drilled the hole a bit slanted to tip the tube away from the crank where it leavesthe pump.
 
IMHO, the thin side of the housing tapped by Jadaharabi looks to have the major thread diameter almost through the housing. Not to mention the fact that pipe thread has to be tightened to hold and seal, and that exerts a lot of outward force on the female threads. I'd be welding/brazing some reinforcement around that area, as well as paying attention to strongly supporting that very heavy piping used for a pickup. A decent sized pothole will put a big shock on those threads with all of that weight hanging out there.
 
nm9stheham said:
IMHO, the thin side of the housing tapped by Jadaharabi looks to have the major thread diameter almost through the housing. I'd be welding/brazing some reinforcement around that area, as well as paying attention to strongly supporting that very heavy piping used for a pickup. A decent sized pothole will put a big shock on those threads with all of that weight hanging out there.
Click to expand...

^^ This ^^

I'd fabricate at least two supports for the tube, no way I'd want any load from the tube on that pump housing.
 
You do realize that the pickup is not the bottleneck right?
The bottleneck is actually the limitations of the pump GPM and the ability of the pump drive gear and shaft.
You are working with hydraulics, so you could suck 500 gallons a minute through a 1/4 inch pipe as long as the pump GPM and the system driving the pump is up to it.
By adding another pickup you are doubling the volume the pump has to move before the oil gets to the pump gears and the engine gets oil pressure at all.

Sorry to sound like a killjoy, but the laws of physics are not changeable.
 
I'm not quite understanding this point on the pickup size being a problem.... The weight of the oil that has to be lifted to get to the gears seems negligible. If we were talking a water well pump pulling up from 200' below ground level then yes, but we are lifting oil maybe 6" or 8"?? You fight the weight of the oil, which looks to be very small in this case, and also to flow resistance/pressure drop through the tubing. A larger tube would offer lower pressure drop into the pump.

I have to wonder if the point of dual pickups in the past has been more to avoid complete starvation with the oil sloshing around.....
 
I always thought that having two pickups was ridiculous.
It doesn't switch the flow from one to the other tube depending on which one is in oil.
The pickup tube that isn't will just suck air, and the one in oil will quit pulling oil even if it is still in oil.

Put two straws on your mouth (one in each corner) and suck up a little water with both straws at the same time.
There will be less resistance because you have two straws and double the volume.
Now put only one of the straws in the water and the other out of the water and see what you get.

Air.

Same with two pickups, so you can actually oil starve the motor by trying to double the volume of oil by using two pickups because they won't both always be in the oil all the time unless they are right together in the bottom of the pan.
THEN you have a pump that only pumps a set amount of GPM anyway and that is actually more of a limitation than a single pickup tube.
 
In a standard volume pump, the pickup size is not really a problem. When the high-volume pump is used, the inlet size which is the same as the standard volume, becomes the restriction. That was why Milodon had the cover-fed version. That is still the best path, and not hard to fabricate but as noted - you need the oil pan for it.
So the question becomes do you really need all that volume?
In regard to the the modified pickup - if it could be done reliably, some team over the past 50 years would have done it. I would be careful and support that new tube with couple brackets to the main studs because it is thin, and IMO will fracture. The coupler is probably not the best idea either. Have a welder join the threaded end in the pump to the tubing.
 
grimreaper said:
Did you just sort through pumps until you found one you could drill and tap? I've got seven housings and every one is offset far enough that it could not make room for 1/2 pipe. I tried the best one a few weeks ago to make sure, and it was far too thin on one side. Do I just need to keep looking at parts houses? Seems like someone would make a pump to solve the problem. :-(
Click to expand...

Look at the picture of the two pumps the one has the hole over to one side the other doesn't. My modified pump has just as much material in the side as it does.
The pump on top is the pump with the Milodon pickup adapted to it.

My final picture with the Milodon pickup cut, then tapped, then mounted. I did not cut it off pass the insert so I have to drill it out to 5/8in.
 

Attachments

  • bad hole.jpg
    44.1 KB · Views: 533
  • bad pump2.jpg
    29.8 KB · Views: 491
  • 1a hv.jpg
    22.9 KB · Views: 503
  • 1a hv bottom.jpg
    24.4 KB · Views: 512
nm9stheham said:
IMHO, the thin side of the housing tapped by Jadaharabi looks to have the major thread diameter almost through the housing. Not to mention the fact that pipe thread has to be tightened to hold and seal, and that exerts a lot of outward force on the female threads. I'd be welding/brazing some reinforcement around that area, as well as paying attention to strongly supporting that very heavy piping used for a pickup. A decent sized pothole will put a big shock on those threads with all of that weight hanging out there.
Click to expand...

The threads are not almost through the housing. Not to mention the fact that the original pickups are also a pipe thread with less contact area. The pipe nipple is screwed in a full inch so the thinner out side portion of the pump is not all that is holding the pipe into the pump. The tubing, not the pipe nipple and coupler, is thinner than a stock pickup so weight is not an issue. The end of the pickup is also lighter than the stock flying saucer that mopar uses. My plan is to machine down the coupler to get rid of some weight.
I'm using a stock stroke with a windage tray so i may make a bracket to support it anyway. On your advise I will miss as many potholes as I can.
 
TrailBeast said:
I always thought that having two pickups was ridiculous.
It doesn't switch the flow from one to the other tube depending on which one is in oil.
The pickup tube that isn't will just suck air, and the one in oil will quit pulling oil even if it is still in oil.

Put two straws on your mouth (one in each corner) and suck up a little water with both straws at the same time.
There will be less resistance because you have two straws and double the volume.
Now put only one of the straws in the water and the other out of the water and see what you get.

Air.

Same with two pickups, so you can actually oil starve the motor by trying to double the volume of oil by using two pickups because they won't both always be in the oil all the time unless they are right together in the bottom of the pan.
THEN you have a pump that only pumps a set amount of GPM anyway and that is actually more of a limitation than a single pickup tube.
Click to expand...


Then you need to look at the area a dry sump has.

You can't get enough area on the suction side of the pump. This has been published for decades.
 
TrailBeast said:
I always thought that having two pickups was ridiculous.
It doesn't switch the flow from one to the other tube depending on which one is in oil.
The pickup tube that isn't will just suck air, and the one in oil will quit pulling oil even if it is still in oil.

Put two straws on your mouth (one in each corner) and suck up a little water with both straws at the same time.
There will be less resistance because you have two straws and double the volume.
Now put only one of the straws in the water and the other out of the water and see what you get.

Air.

Same with two pickups, so you can actually oil starve the motor by trying to double the volume of oil by using two pickups because they won't both always be in the oil all the time unless they are right together in the bottom of the pan.
THEN you have a pump that only pumps a set amount of GPM anyway and that is actually more of a limitation than a single pickup tube.
Click to expand...


It is not a 2 pickup system it is a 2 line system that uses 1 pickup. Mopar has been using it for years especially on the big blocks. So it has been proven to work over and over again. Mopar used it on the small block kit car engines unfortunately the pickup was dropped when the kit car was discontinued. it won;t work with a stock pan anyway.

Which is the question here what to do to increase the flow on the pickup side of the pump with a stock pan. Not should I increase the flow but How do you increase the flow. If anyone has a better idea than drilling out the passage for a bigger pickup tube I'm all ears.
 
If you are stuck with the center sump pan, you are doing all you can do, and it will work. And help. I have posted it before but the style of pump that Chrysler used is the best pump at moving oil, but it has quirks that should be addressed in a performance application. Because of the rotor and scroll, the pump output is very spiked. In a spur gear pump, the output is smooth but the MoPar pump puts out big gulps of oil. And because of that, the pump needs more cross section in the pick up tube.

You will never err in getting a bigger suction side tube on the pump. The best situation is a rear sump with a 1 inch (IIRC) inlet to the pump.

A ford guy I know has custom built pick up tubes that doubles the cross section. It rid him of many oiling issues he was fighting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top