Sniper EFI and ignition type

[JRapley]

In the midst of hooking up a Sniper EFI and have ran into some questions about which method to hook up the ignition wiring to it. My main issue is with what kind of box my MSD 5300 is.

Here’s my ignition setup:

Ignition control Unit: MSD 5300 (like an orange box, has the stock Mopar plug)
Coil: Blaster 2 coil
Rest of the ignition is stock Mopar wiring except the ballast resistor is removed.

Issue is I can’t find any info on the MSD 5300 box, Holly tech line had no info or suggestions other than to buy a 6AL. They said the 5200 is a similar box (inductive type) and won’t work with the Sniper system. I asked why not, because the yellow wire just hooks to the coil -ive on an inductive type setup. There really was no answer for that question other than they had no information and to buy a new box.

I need to know if the MSD 5300 keeps the ignition system as an inductive type or if it’s a capacitive discharge style box. This will help me decide if I wire the Sniper yellow to coil -ive or use the jumper wire and tap into the tach output from the MSD 5300.

anyone had experience with the MSD 5300?

Thanks

 

[67Dart273]

No CD type ignition has a "coil trigger" appearance such as breaker points, stock Mopar ECU, or HEI on the coil NEG. On any CD, the coil NEG is grounded, and the coil PLUS receives the high voltage pulse from the CD. This is why conventional tachs won't work on CD CD ignitions operate quite differently from a Kettering or "switched" ignition

(I guess they/ you are thinking "inductive?" No, both are CD boxes)

I would think that you should be able to compare the wiring of this box to an MSD and devise a way to adapt it, might need a tach adapter

That is, this box and the more universal MSD all have the same basics...power-- trigger--and coil PLUS and coil NEG

 

[67Dart273]

Can you post a link to the Sniper destructions, and maybe the detail to hookup an MSD?

EDIT this it?

https://documents.holley.com/199r11031r.pdf

EDIT You may not get this to work as is

This is what Holley shows for MSD6 setup only your Mopar box DOES NOT HAVE the points wire. What they are doing is feeding a dist. magnetic trigger (Mopar breakerless) into the Sniper, then triggering the MSD 6 through the MSD white "points" trigger wire

 

[67Dart273]

What is the "coil driver module" they are talking about in some of those pages?

More nonsense LOL

What is the Sniper Coil Driver for?

 

[rmchrgr]

What is the "coil driver module" they are talking about in some of those pages?

More nonsense LOL

What is the Sniper Coil Driver for?

Its just produces a signal to tell the ECU when to fire the coil. If you use the Holley ignition the coil is wired directly to both the ignition box and the ECU - problem solved.

If it were me, I’d forget about using anything other than a Hyperspark ignition box, distributor and coil. Yeah its another cash outlay but it will make life easier. It also gives you the ability to control timing which is a really nice feature. Besides, Holley owns MSD so if they have no info on that part it’s probably not worth trying to use.

Also, AFAIK The blaster coil is a canister style coil and is really not great for EFI because of the electromagnetism. Sniper is susceptible to RFI which can cause all sorts of drivability issues.

It would be preferable to use an “E” coil or a Ford TFI coil. Holley sells one but if you don’t want to spend the money for the Holley branded one, get a parts store TFI coil, same thing.

Cobbling an EFI system together with parts that were never designed to work together is going to be an uphill climb.

 

[JRapley]

Thanks for all the replies guys, it appears there's still much more for me to dive into this project than initially anticipated. I was under the impression these things setup fairly easily, but maybe there's more hiccups with a Mopar setup?

@67Dart273 , that manual is the one I am using yes. Page 22 & 23 to be exact are what I'm referring to. I initially though I'd be hooking it up just like the bottom picture on page 22. But doing some reading on page 23 and talking about how you can fry the ECU if you hook up the yellow to coil on a CD system got me worried. Then I got questioning as to whether or not this MSD box is CD or not, or if it would be messing with coil -ive in a bad way and damage something. I'm more worried about damage than anything at this point.

If it makes may difference, this 5300 box does have a tach signal spade coming out of the opposite side (green wire in picture) which is currently hooked up to my aftermarket tach. I wondered if I could hook up there like on page 23 without issues?

@rmchrgr , short of shelling out a whole wack load more of cash, is there anything preventing me from using the stock Mopar electronic ignition module (get rid of this MSD unit) and just hooking the sniper up to the coil -ive? Yes the Blaster 2 coil is canister style, but I have made sure to route all my wires and stuff away from any sources that could cause interference. I have read that people have successfully used the Sniper system with the Mopar orange box ignition system. Obviously this doesn't give me timing control and perhaps is limiting what the EFI is capable of, but I wasn't looking for an all out performance/tunability build anyways. This is just a daily driver I was wanting to add EFI to.

It's understandable that shelling out all the money for everything that works together and basically just plugs in is the best option and will perform the absolute best. In my case being up in Canada we get screwed with exchange and shipping. I'd be into well over $800 just for parts without shipping. Not trying to be cheap, just realistic about building costs. Surely people have used a Sniper system with a stock ignition setup?

Thanks again for all the helpful info, gives a lot to think about.

 

[67Dart273]

Then I got questioning as to whether or not this MSD box is CD or not,

If it makes may difference, this 5300 box does have a tach signal spade coming out of the opposite side (green wire in picture) which is currently hooked up to my aftermarket tach. I wondered if I could hook up there like on page 23 without issues? .

The 5300 is for certain CDI. I believe that diagram would work but IT WILL NOT give you timing control. Now I ran my Holley HP setup that way before I tore my car apart, but will not do so in the future.

 

[JRapley]

The 5300 is for certain CDI. I believe that diagram would work but IT WILL NOT give you timing control. Now I ran my Holley HP setup that way before I tore my car apart, but will not do so in the future.

And that was my whole dilemma yesterday when going over all my checks before doing initial, was "if this MSD 5300 is a CDI box, and I've hooked up to coil -ive, I'm about to fry my Sniper". Holley had no idea about this box and it was hard to find anything online, and if I did find anything it was contradicting. I've also read stuff saying that the 5300 is like a 5200 or a 5C which were for use only on inductive style systems. Which got me thinking that coil -ive hookup would be fine.

Did you have major driveability or tunability issues running without timing control?

I believe my best bet at the moment is to swap this box out for a stock unit and put the ballast resistor back in, hook to coil -ive and give it a go. The it's back to bone stock ignition.

Second option would be use the MSD box and hook it up like the image below. I suppose the 'good' thing about trying the below hookup method is that there's no risk of frying something. It's only if you hook it up the other way and its the opposite type ignition that it will do damage.

Does all that make sense, or am I paddling up the wrong river here?

Thanks again everyone

 

[67Dart273]

I was going to suggest you consider using a GM HEI module which would be very similar to using Mopar ECU

On a side note I still have one of those MSD 5300 series units, which I used to run on my beat up SB Mopar swapped Landcruiser. The hood leaked like a sieve, and you'd get snow/ water/ mud up from underneath, so I mounted the box and coil on the inside of the firewall and ran the coil and trigger wires out through grommets in the firewall.

Part of this was "inspired" because earlier, using a Mopar box, I got enough dirt and water up under there that it missed and ran poorly BECAUSE IT GOT DIRTY CONDUCTIVE WATER all over the "hot" (electrically hot) transistor on the box!!!

 

[JRapley]

Well, I got it all buttoned up tonight. I initially switched the ignition all back to stock and had issues getting power across the ballast resistor. Dunno why, but it would have power on the hot side for both pins, but only power on the opposite side on one pin. So coil wasn’t getting power in start or run. Which was strange because the resistor ohmed out fine on the meter.
So I abandoned that idea and put the MSD 5300 back in, unhooked yellow coil -ive, wired the Sniper in like the picture above with the purple tach adapter wire to the MSD box and she fired right up after going through the wizard.
Running great so far, couple things to tidy up but so far very impressed with the EFI vs the old carb. Only thing…the in line fuel pump sure is loud! Ah well, future upgrade maybe to in tank pump.

 

[67Dart273]

Pay attention to how you have it mounted and line connections. Rubber mounts? Rubbing somewhere? Metal line? Makes a huge difference. "In the old days" I used to have to work on a few oil furnaces. If you weren't careful, the metal supply line to the burner pump would become a VERY loud telegraph for pump noise

 

[rmchrgr]

Well, I got it all buttoned up tonight. I initially switched the ignition all back to stock and had issues getting power across the ballast resistor. Dunno why, but it would have power on the hot side for both pins, but only power on the opposite side on one pin. So coil wasn’t getting power in start or run. Which was strange because the resistor ohmed out fine on the meter.

Good decision because Sniper + ballast resistor = bad.

Holley specifically states in the instructions that the ECU needs 12V in both crank and run which basically renders the ballast resistor useless. To do that though, you must “tie the IGN1 and IGN 2 circuits together” somewhere behind the switch so it acts as one switch position that receives a constant 12v.

In the OE format when the engine is off and you turn the key to start, there is no voltage to the run circuit. When cranking the coil gets “full fielded” to aid startup. Once the car starts, you release the key back to run and there is no voltage in the start position because the alternator is providing the juice to keep it running.

Originally, the ballast resistor’s main function was to limit voltage to the coil in run or you’d burn up the points in short order. Not sure why it was kept that way when they went to electronic ignitions in the ‘70s but that’s a different thread.

Either way, the Holley stuff is designed to have the full 12v in both crank and run. That’s why it’s best to use the Hyperspark ignition components because while the ECU may “work” with other ignition pieces it wont be optimal.

 

[JRapley]

Good decision because Sniper + ballast resistor = bad.

Holley specifically states in the instructions that the ECU needs 12V in both crank and run which basically renders the ballast resistor useless. To do that though, you must “tie the IGN1 and IGN 2 circuits together” somewhere behind the switch so it acts as one switch position that receives a constant 12v.

In the OE format when the engine is off and you turn the key to start, there is no voltage to the run circuit. When cranking the coil gets “full fielded” to aid startup. Once the car starts, you release the key back to run and there is no voltage in the start position because the alternator is providing the juice to keep it running.

Originally, the ballast resistor’s main function was to limit voltage to the coil in run or you’d burn up the points in short order. Not sure why it was kept that way when they went to electronic ignitions in the ‘70s but that’s a different thread.

Either way, the Holley stuff is designed to have the full 12v in both crank and run. That’s why it’s best to use the Hyperspark ignition components because while the ECU may “work” with other ignition pieces it wont be optimal.

Good info there, thanks for that rmchrgr.

I've most definitely got a full 12V in crank and run. Main power goes right to the battery, and my switched pink wire is on a relay that has its own feed directly from the battery also. I didn't want to chance anything with the wiring and being under-supplied for voltage.

Funny thing is, on the first cruise it was showing I wasn't charging (on both the Sniper screen and my aftermarket volt gauge) so I thought I had royally screwed something up. Good thing was, it was only a field wire had come off at the alternator during the install and I hadn't noticed because it was under heater hoses. Simple fix, but it sure had me worrying!

Thanks again for all the help and advice, now to put some miles on and see how things progress!

 

[67Dart273]

Good decision because Sniper + ballast resistor = bad.

Holley specifically states in the instructions that the ECU needs 12V in both crank and run which basically renders the ballast resistor useless. To do that though, you must “tie the IGN1 and IGN 2 circuits together” somewhere behind the switch so it acts as one switch position that receives a constant 12v. An added diode or two or relay and off you go

In the OE format when the engine is off and you turn the key to start, there is no voltage to the run circuit. When cranking the coil gets “full fielded” to aid startup. Once the car starts, you release the key back to run and there is no voltage in the start position because the alternator is providing the juice to keep it running.

Originally, the ballast resistor’s main function was to limit voltage to the coil in run or you’d burn up the points in short order. Not sure why it was kept that way when they went to electronic ignitions in the ‘70s but that’s a different thread.

Either way, the Holley stuff is designed to have the full 12v in both crank and run. That’s why it’s best to use the Hyperspark ignition components because while the ECU may “work” with other ignition pieces it wont be optimal.

Frankly this is a flawed argument. "There ware ways" to supply 12V and still run a ballasted ignition. I DO agree that ballasted ignition systems are generally "somewhat dated."

One of the main reasons that ballasted ignitions came about---and all the big "3" as well as the "4th" (AMC) --all of them used coil resistors--was so that it could be bypassed in start and therefore still have a good hot spark in "start." Remember the start of the 12V era was also "about" the time that higher compression engines came about, and they need a good spark, whereas the older '50's low compression stuff can get by with a lot less spark.