I agree that wear pattern is very strange , more than spring pressure involved here the guy making that cam was eating shrooms orsomething
Solid cam damage diagnosis help
- Thread starter Lil Demon
- Start date
-
Lil Demon
Well-Known Member
Update: I measured several times and even had one of my techs measure to make sure what I was seeing was correct. Taper was all to the same side as predicted. Average taper as measured on the lobe base circle was .007! Average!!! Crazy stuff. After consulting with my pillow last night, I decided I am going to reassemble and check for coil bind since I don't have the tools to measure it unassembled. I just have a feeling that the lifter might have been chattering at the top of the lobe as well. Thanks for all the helpful advice thus far and feel free to chime in on my next move planned if anyone feels I'm going on a tangent.
PRH
Well-Known Member
There you have it.
A defective cam.
I assume by the pattern that all were tapered in the same direction?
If so, that’s two manufacturing problems.
It would have failed prematurely no matter how it was broken in.
Check the new cam before installing.
Usually anything over about .0025-.0030 taper will start to show the pattern running off the side of the lobe.
Sure, that really makes the lifters whip around, but the contact pattern is narrower...... so it wears out quicker.
Also, it should have the taper staggered.
What this incident tells me is...... there doesn’t appear to be any kind of post-grinding QC process.
Last edited:
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Boy, PRH called that, didn't he.
Hope the new one is within spec. This thread's been very informative. One more thing to put on the list to check when building an engine.
Hope the new one is within spec. This thread's been very informative. One more thing to put on the list to check when building an engine.
justinp61
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
- Messages
- 3,056
- Reaction score
- 4,039
Sadly this is true. If you ever question his methods, theory or product quality he becomes very defensive and you become a dumb ***.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
the engle lobes mentioned are not engles high rate lobes
they are actually rather conservative
Engle has at least 3 lines of mopar lobes
do talk to engle
and/or our crower poster
btw
the reasons Isky megacams last is because they are so very mild
you can over rev them and they keep running
that's why some dirt track guys like them
but Joe sherman switched because the old herbert and isky grinds were down on horsepower big time
In chevies
would be down more in a mopar
Chet herbert did have a line of mopar masters
Isky for a long time and maybe still only had ONE mopar master
The one he developed and we tested in our max wedge 3 speed car great cam this was early 60s
disclaimer
I was an isky WD easy cams less warranty problems rev like crazy on yesterdays springs
they are actually rather conservative
Engle has at least 3 lines of mopar lobes
do talk to engle
and/or our crower poster
btw
the reasons Isky megacams last is because they are so very mild
you can over rev them and they keep running
that's why some dirt track guys like them
but Joe sherman switched because the old herbert and isky grinds were down on horsepower big time
In chevies
would be down more in a mopar
Chet herbert did have a line of mopar masters
Isky for a long time and maybe still only had ONE mopar master
The one he developed and we tested in our max wedge 3 speed car great cam this was early 60s
disclaimer
I was an isky WD easy cams less warranty problems rev like crazy on yesterdays springs
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
PRH
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to call Howard’s and quiz them about how much lobe taper should there be on a cam they ground for Hughes.
Maybe Hughes wants some extra taper??
Maybe Hughes gets a break on the grinding price if they (Howard’s) don’t have to dress the wheel so the cam has the staggered taper??
Be interesting to see how that conversation unfolded.
I realize Howard’s name isn’t likely on the cam anywhere....... but it seems like it’s fairly common knowledge where the Hughes cams come from.
I know if I were a cam grinder....... I wouldn’t want a cam with .007” lobe taper floating around in car hobby land.
And if I had one like that....... I’d hang on to it and use it as an example of why you need to check stuff.
Maybe Hughes wants some extra taper??
Maybe Hughes gets a break on the grinding price if they (Howard’s) don’t have to dress the wheel so the cam has the staggered taper??
Be interesting to see how that conversation unfolded.
I realize Howard’s name isn’t likely on the cam anywhere....... but it seems like it’s fairly common knowledge where the Hughes cams come from.
I know if I were a cam grinder....... I wouldn’t want a cam with .007” lobe taper floating around in car hobby land.
And if I had one like that....... I’d hang on to it and use it as an example of why you need to check stuff.
Last edited:
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Lil Demon
Well-Known Member
I just got off the phone with Chris at Engle. Great guy and very helpful. He even offered to fix the Hughes cam. I decided to just order the KV2 from him. Hughes was a 242/246 duration and 564/576 with a 108 LSA,
the KV2 is a 245/245 duration and 560/560 with a 107 LSA. I decided not to go KV3 or bigger being that I have a T56/4.10 combo that tends to cruise in the 2200 rpm range so I wanted to avoid the low speed bucking/surging. As for Hughes, Tim responded via email and assured me it was my fault and said the speckles of metal on the journals were likely from my bearings coming apart. I reminded him of the brilliant machining that was done and stated that the metal speckles were more likely all the metal coming off the cam lobes but yes they had already circulated through my engine and was causing damage to my bearings. I guess it was the expected reply. Live and learn. What do you guys think of my cam choice with Engle?, did I give up performance?? Chris did say he felt it would be up on power and more than anything longevity. Howards asked for 360 lbs pressure open where as Engle calls for 320. Chris said there was no need for so much pressure and try to adjust my springs to be closer to 320 if possible.
the KV2 is a 245/245 duration and 560/560 with a 107 LSA. I decided not to go KV3 or bigger being that I have a T56/4.10 combo that tends to cruise in the 2200 rpm range so I wanted to avoid the low speed bucking/surging. As for Hughes, Tim responded via email and assured me it was my fault and said the speckles of metal on the journals were likely from my bearings coming apart. I reminded him of the brilliant machining that was done and stated that the metal speckles were more likely all the metal coming off the cam lobes but yes they had already circulated through my engine and was causing damage to my bearings. I guess it was the expected reply. Live and learn. What do you guys think of my cam choice with Engle?, did I give up performance?? Chris did say he felt it would be up on power and more than anything longevity. Howards asked for 360 lbs pressure open where as Engle calls for 320. Chris said there was no need for so much pressure and try to adjust my springs to be closer to 320 if possible.
PRH
Well-Known Member
Did you mention the .007 taper to either Hughes or Engle?
Hughes to get the denial reaction........and Engle to hear the chuckling on the other end of the line.
I think you’ll be fine with the Engle.
Still check the taper, and verify the taper is staggered before installing.
Hughes to get the denial reaction........and Engle to hear the chuckling on the other end of the line.
I think you’ll be fine with the Engle.
Still check the taper, and verify the taper is staggered before installing.
Lil Demon
Well-Known Member
Haha yes, Hughes just scoffed at the fact and Engle said someone must be smoking something to put Chevy taper on a Mopar LOL. Definitely will check taper from here on. Like I said as much as I want the vehicle running I also want to learn from this. PRH and all others you guys have been VERY helpful
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I like the single pattern better anyway.
Hughes either needs to grind their own cams of fire Howard’s because evidently Howard’s doesn’t give a **** what they send out in a Hughes box.
If you are paid to do a job, you need to do it and it appears Howard’s isn’t doing it.
I personally looked at a Hughes cam where the core was flat JUNK. Hughes didn’t want to hear about it and Howard’s said Hughes sends pallets of cores and they just grind them.
When I hear **** like that I refuse to do business with either.
If Howard’s is getting paid to grind cams and they have that attitude they can pick sand.
512Stroker
We are all here because we are not all there.
Who's lifters are you going to pair up with your new Engle cam?
Lil Demon
Well-Known Member
I ordered from them, but I think he said they're Speed-Pro?? I could be way off but I do remember it being a common brand. Said theyve been using them for decades and have no issues. He said they were solid shaped lifters. I can't remember the brand.
PRH
Well-Known Member
No oil band(smooth body) means no edm hole.
Not that it necessarily “needs” the hole.
But...... if you want the hole......you need the oil band of the AMC lifter to have a way to get the oil inside the lifter to feed the EDM hole.
Not that it necessarily “needs” the hole.
But...... if you want the hole......you need the oil band of the AMC lifter to have a way to get the oil inside the lifter to feed the EDM hole.
Lil Demon
Well-Known Member
now you have me worried about my Hughes cam , only have about 1000 miles on it now , i'll be keeping a close watch on the oil between changes and any strange drops in performance gas mileage and wgatever else .
Not impressed with the response from Hughes or the lack of cam quality
PRH
Well-Known Member
I’m going to say you actually are impressed......just not in a positive way.
Lil Demon
Well-Known Member
I never thought I’d be that guy. I’ll let the email conversation speak for itself.
PRH
Well-Known Member
I’m sure that “duly noted” was very satisfying.
I still say a call to Howard’s would be interesting.
Tell them you’re not looking for restitution, since you didn’t buy the cam from them, but that you’d like some clarification on how much lobe taper you’d expect to see if you ordered a new cam from them...... and whether or not it would have the lobe taper in the same direction on all lobes or not.
I’d let them tell you what the taper should be before you offering up what it is.
You know what can create a lot of heat?
Rubbing something with all the load concentrated to a very small area......... like you get when there is excessive lobe taper.
I still say a call to Howard’s would be interesting.
Tell them you’re not looking for restitution, since you didn’t buy the cam from them, but that you’d like some clarification on how much lobe taper you’d expect to see if you ordered a new cam from them...... and whether or not it would have the lobe taper in the same direction on all lobes or not.
I’d let them tell you what the taper should be before you offering up what it is.
You know what can create a lot of heat?
Rubbing something with all the load concentrated to a very small area......... like you get when there is excessive lobe taper.
Last edited:
Lil Demon
Well-Known Member
I did buy it from them along with a lot of my engine stuff from them. I did talk to them twice between the emails. Showed as much enthusiasm to do right as he reflects in his email. Disgusted to say the least. I'm glad I decided to pull my motor apart even though it all seemed well.
Sorry I thought you meant Hughes. Yeah a call to Howards would be interesting
PRH
Well-Known Member
I thought you bought the cam from Hughes?
Lil Demon
Well-Known Member
PRH
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to hear their response to the .007” taper.
Like I said earlier....... if I were a cam grinder...... I wouldn’t want that thing “out there”.
As it sits right now, the way I see it..... you’ve been given the green light to post those pics and findings on every Hughes cam post you stumble across.
-
