Speedmaster Stainless Rocker Arm Issues

[mshred]

Wondering if anyone is running the stainless rocker arms that Speedmaster sells on a Speedmaster, Edelbrock or other stock type replacement head, and if they have any issues with rocker body to spring retainer clearance? Was watching a video on Youtube where someone had setup the stainless rockers on a set of assembled speedmaster heads and there was obvious retainer interference issues as is. The rockers in question are below

Mopar Chrysler SB 318 340 360 1.6 Ratio Stainless Steel Roller Rocker Arm Set

I have already purchased the assembled SM heads and rockers linked above (yet to have in my hands to check myself though) and I am wondering if others have had this issue and what can be done to correct it? Shims of some sort maybe?

Any experience with these parts or suggestions is appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Demonracer]

Get with B3 to correct the geometry, he may be able to shed some light on the problem.

 

[mshred]

Get with B3 to correct the geometry, he may be able to shed some light on the problem.

Who is that? A member here?

 

[rumblefish360]

Mike at B3 racing. @B3RE - when he comes back he’ll be notified via the @ sign in front of his name. Click the name and see if he has his web site posted under his name or on his FABO page.

In the case of Edelbrock heads, Harland Sharp as designed a set specifically for that head for us.

Sometimes cheap is t where it’s at.

That said, I have PRW rockers @ 1.6 on my TF heads and Mike at B3 said I can order a shim from him that will make it perfect. The PRW rockers are very good geometry wise on my set up and technically I can get away without a shim. The shim is very thin and offers a slight adjustment to get them dead on. And so I did.
It just makes it that much better on an engine I really never want to ever touch again. It’s in the wife’s Barracuda.

On a set of Edelbrock heads I’m working on now, with Hughes 1.6 rockers, in order to get the action and sweep of the rocker right, it took a .040 shim relatively straight up & moved to one end a bit.

 

[rumblefish360]

Wait, better yet ….

B3 Racing Engines LLC - Performance Engine Building and Mopar Valvetrains

He is an excellent guy, super cool and willing to chat a bit if he has the time. Mike is a geometry freak and builds engines. Very detailed work.

Mike gets a big thumbs up approval from me and look forward to working with him again in the future. It’s a no brainer.

 

[mshred]

Mike at B3 racing. @B3RE - when he comes back he’ll be notified via the @ sign in front of his name. Click the name and see if he has his web site posted under his name or on his FABO page.

In the case of Edelbrock heads, Harland Sharp as designed a set specifically for that head for us.

Sometimes cheap is t where it’s at.

That said, I have PRW rockers @ 1.6 on my TF heads and Mike at B3 said I can order a shim from him that will make it perfect. The PRW rockers are very good geometry wise on my set up and technically I can get away without a shim. The shim is very thin and offers a slight adjustment to get them dead on. And so I did.
It just makes it that much better on an engine I really never want to ever touch again. It’s in the wife’s Barracuda.

On a set of Edelbrock heads I’m working on now, with Hughes 1.6 rockers, in order to get the action and sweep of the rocker right, it took a .040 shim relatively straight up & moved to one end a bit.

Thanks, I will check out his profile.

Did you see the link I posted, are your PRW rockers the stainless variety as well? Interesting that they clear what I imagine is a dual spring on your TF heads but not the dual spring as setup on the speedmaster heads, atleast according to Youtube.

I will worry about pattern once the rockers actually fit lol. But I am aware that shims can help both, I will have to see.

 

[rumblefish360]

Thanks, I will check out his profile.

Did you see the link I posted,

I think I missed it.

are your PRW rockers the stainless variety as well?

Yes

Interesting that they clear what I imagine is a dual spring on your TF heads but not the dual spring as setup on the speedmaster heads, atleast according to Youtube.

I don’t remember the diameter of the TF springs. They cleared.

I will worry about pattern once the rockers actually fit lol. But I am aware that shims can help both, I will have to see.

I’m sure you got this. It’s not hard but it’s annoying to keep checking and adjusting until there right.

 

[mshred]

Wait, better yet ….

B3 Racing Engines LLC - Performance Engine Building and Mopar Valvetrains

He is an excellent guy, super cool and willing to chat a bit if he has the time. Mike is a geometry freak and builds engines. Very detailed work.

Mike gets a big thumbs up approval from me and look forward to working with him again in the future. It’s a no brainer.

His website won't load on my computer for some reason. Ill try messaging him on here.

Also just curious if any others have ran the SM assembled heads and their Stainless rockers and if they had any interference issues and what they did to rectify it

 

[rumblefish360]

@mshred are those rockers bushed on the shaft?

 

[Newbomb Turk]

His website won't load on my computer for some reason. Ill try messaging him on here.

Also just curious if any others have ran the SM assembled heads and their Stainless rockers and if they had any interference issues and what they did to rectify it

You need to move the shafts up and away from the valve. It’s so common that just about everything can use a correction.

 

[CRUZE 418]

Those rockers look to be identical to my PRW', except for the holdowns are different. I have mine on Trick Flow heads. Got all of it and the correction kit from Mike at B3.

 

[RustyRatRod]

You need to move the shafts up and away from the valve. It’s so common that just about everything can use a correction.

This ^^^^^ Even stock engines can benefit from moving the rocker shafts to get them dead right.

 

[mshred]

My last LA builds used Hughes and T&D rockers and I shimmed them as necessary, so I am well aware that rockers are not just a bolt on and go item. However, I am just wondering how much "shim" per say is needed with these rockers and a dual valvespring setup, as I see it there is a big difference in shimming for geometry vs shimming for interference..

 

[toolmanmike]

My last LA builds used Hughes and T&D rockers and I shimmed them as necessary, so I am well aware that rockers are not just a bolt on and go item. However, I am just wondering how much "shim" per say is needed with these rockers and a dual valvespring setup, as I see it there is a big difference in shimming for geometry vs shimming for interference..

I sure like beehive springs for that reason. A friend bought a set of those rockers and they were a long ways off on his Edelbrock heads. He ended up with Hughes and I think without shimming. His issue was alignment and not spring/retainer interference though. Makes me wonder how good the Edelbrock rockers are their own heads.

 

[rumblefish360]

My last LA builds used Hughes and T&D rockers and I shimmed them as necessary, so I am well aware that rockers are not just a bolt on and go item. However, I am just wondering how much "shim" per say is needed with these rockers and a dual valvespring setup, as I see it there is a big difference in shimming for geometry vs shimming for interference..

This will vary on the blocks height, gasket used, head milled or not, actual placement of the fulcrum point, rockers placement of the tip and adjuster end and where the actual placement of the ball or cup end is, valve spring dimensions and there placement on the head in relation to the rocker arm and finally, the camshaft itself.

Fun fun fun…..

 

[pittsburghracer]

His website won't load on my computer for some reason. Ill try messaging him on here.

Also just curious if any others have ran the SM assembled heads and their Stainless rockers and if they had any interference issues and what they did to rectify it

Not sure why his site says not secure. His number is on here. Give him a call. Great guy.

 

[RustyRatRod]

While I agree the beehive springs can certainly solve the issue with contact between the rockers and springs, they don't solve the problem that causes it.

 

[toolmanmike]

While agree the beehive springs can certainly solve the issue with contact between the rockers and springs, they don't solve the problem that causes it.

Mismatch of parts or poorly designed rockers is the cause of the problem. Beehive springs are a sidestep fix just like shimming (for clearance) and grinding. If the rockers were right from the start those fixes wouldn't be necessary.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Mismatch of parts or poorly designed rockers is the cause of the problem. Beehive springs are a sidestep fix just like shimming (for clearance) and grinding. If the rockers were right from the start those fixes wouldn't be necessary.

The root cause is the rocker shaft not in the optimum location from the factory. There's a lot of good info on Mike's site. It's worth a read. If the rocker shafts were optimally located by Chrysler, none of that would be necessary. Mike has one simple measurement you can take that will show you that basically none of the stock engines has the rocker shafts in the right place. I've measured several big block, small block and slant 6 heads and they are all out of spec for what is considered optimal. Mopar guys have dealt with rocker to spring interference for decades. Mike just figured out why and offers a correct fix.

 

[rumblefish360]

Mismatch of parts or poorly designed rockers is the cause of the problem. Beehive springs are a sidestep fix just like shimming (for clearance) and grinding. If the rockers were right from the start those fixes wouldn't be necessary.

No one has rocker set up right for all occasions.

 

[toolmanmike]

No one has rocker set up right for all occasions.

True that but some are miles off and on their own heads.

 

[RustyRatRod]

No one has rocker set up right for all occasions.

Right, because of lousy casting and machining tolerances from Chrysler, no two heads have the rocker shafts in the same place.....let alone in the right place.

 

[Bobzilla]

Also just curious if any others have ran the SM assembled heads and their Stainless rockers and if they had any interference issues and what they did to rectify it

I am just wondering how much "shim" per say is needed with these rockers and a dual valvespring setup, as I see it there is a big difference in shimming for geometry vs shimming for interference..

I will try to be more clear or complete.

The Speedmaster heads are basically copies of Edelbrock LA heads. The rocker shaft stands are in the same location as the Edelbrock heads.
The Speedmaster stainless rocker arms are basicaly copies of the Comp Cams stainless rocker arms. I have both sets, measured them for comparison, and they are dimensionally the same.

The retainer contacting the rocker arm happens on Edelbrock heads with Comp rocker arms too. So this is NOT specific to Speedmaster parts.

The reason previous posts said to correct the geometry first using a kit from B3 racing is because the rocker shaft stand positions the rocker shaft too close to the valves and too low FOR A ROLLER ROCKER ARM. That is usually the only cause of the interference. So if you get the measurements from B3 Racing website and call Mike with that info he can make the kit properly. It is not just shims. It is usually an offset shim to move the rocker shaft up and away from the valves a specific amount based on your measurements. Some are considerable. Once kit is installed you can double check for the interference. Usually there will be plenty of clearance there with the kit installed, no rocker arm grinding, no beehive springs and no small retainers.

The Trick Flow heads moved the rocker shaft position. That is why guys with Trick Flow heads are not reporting all the clearance issues. They require much less correction.

Lastly, once you install the correction kit you will likely have to add clearance for the pushrods in the cylinder head.

Sorry for the long post. Just trying to be clear and cover it all in one spot.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I will try to be more clear or complete.

The Speedmaster heads are basically copies of Edelbrock LA heads. The rocker shaft stands are in the same location as the Edelbrock heads.
The Speedmaster stainless rocker arms are basicaly copies of the Comp Cams stainless rocker arms. I have both sets, measured them for comparison, and they are dimensionally the same.

The retainer contacting the rocker arm happens on Edelbrock heads with Comp rocker arms too. So this is NOT specific to Speedmaster parts.

The reason previous posts said to correct the geometry first using a kit from B3 racing is because the rocker shaft stand positions the rocker shaft too close to the valves and too low FOR A ROLLER ROCKER ARM. That is usually the only cause of the interference. So if you get the measurements from B3 Racing website and call Mike with that info he can make the kit properly. It is not just shims. It is usually an offset shim to move the rocker shaft up and away from the valves a specific amount based on your measurements. Some are considerable. Once kit is installed you can double check for the interference. Usually there will be plenty of clearance there with the kit installed, no rocker arm grinding, no beehive springs and no small retainers.

The Trick Flow heads moved the rocker shaft position. That is why guys with Trick Flow heads are not reporting all the clearance issues. They require much less correction.

Lastly, once you install the correction kit you will likely have to add clearance for the pushrods in the cylinder head.

Sorry for the long post. Just trying to be clear and cover it all in one spot.

Exactly right! Since roller rockers severely reduce the contact patch of the rocker to the valve tip, the incorrect sweep is much more evident. The factory used rockers with HUGE contact areas, so the inconsistencies with where the rocker shaft didn't make a lot of difference. Even still, with the stock parts, the rocker geometry would have been more correct had Chrysler been more precise with rocker shaft location. It could have even led to a touch more power output, since the valves would have been operating correctly. IMO, it's a pretty important thing to correct, as the cost is somewhat minimal in comparison to the correction it offers.

 

[rumblefish360]

Right, because of lousy casting and machining tolerances from Chrysler, no two heads have the rocker shafts in the same place.....let alone in the right place.

And every aftermarket head as well, but we know this.