The Scientific Method

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canyncarvr

canyncarvr

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What it is: The scientific method starts when you ask a question about something that you observe. That's what google tells me anyway.

I bought a Pertronix coil some time back. I wired it in just to see if it worked. It did. I took it out, put it away for a later install date.

Just put the coil in today. Installed as instructed...bypassed the ballast. I have it mounted on the passenger side inner-fender flat. That's where my Acell 140001 has lived for decades.

Ran the car for a bit, checked the timing, hooked up a new diagnostic tach, did some carb adjustments.

That's when 'The Question' came up. I felt the Pertronix...and it was hot as hell!! 150º as measured with my non-contact IR gun. I didn't expect that...the coil having over TWICE the primary coil resistance the Acell has I figured it would sink considerably less current.

I patched the Acell back in, simply sat it a bit further back on the inner fender. I ran the car for the same amount of time I'd run the Pertronix. Checked the Acell; it was 120-130º. AHA! The Pertronix is just running too damn hot!

Here's the punchline: I happened to put my hand on the disconnected Pertronix. It was still/again too damn hot! Checked it with the temp gun...150º!

Huh?

Common sense would tell you that an operating coil would be warmer than a non-operating coil. Common sense MIGHT also tell you that if a coil ran cool under use but just happened to be sitting in a HOT place...you couldn't tell the difference between its operating temp and its 'just sitting there' temp!

And there 'ya go. What I observed told me that the Pertronix was running hot. That it was sitting adjacent to #4-6 header pipes (MUCH hotter than #2 or #8) didn't enter my mind. That's where the coil has been for many years.

Who cares about this silly story? It probably interests about zero persons. BUT...it should give the reader pause to consider how they observe things and the conclusions they come to. The Scientific Method did not work in this case. Why? Because I didn't follow it!!
 
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I'm glad you posted this. We all go round and round chasing our tails looking for the hard explanation when the answer is right there.

KISS!
 
halifaxhops said:
Which Petronix did you instal I, II, or III Each uses a different coil ohms.
Click to expand...

Ha! Using 'The Scientific Method', I must infer! (which makes this response another 'Did Not Use The Scientific Method' situation)

It's the Pertronix coil that came with an FBO kit, which they say is a 40011. It does measure 1.5-ohms. That number matches the 40011 specs on the Pertronix website. On the coil label it says '1.5-ohms'. The label does NOT show a 40011 number.

I am currently using a Standard LX-101 4-pin box.
 
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Apples to oranges comparison. Internal construction of the coils could be different, wire diameter & number of turns could be different. Oil filled..or not oil filled. Same type of oil, same volume of oil.....etc.
 
Bewy said:
Apples to oranges comparison. Internal construction of the coils could be different, wire diameter & number of turns could be different. Oil filled..or not oil filled. Same type of oil, same volume of oil.....etc.
Click to expand...
There was no comparison made. The 'difference' between the two coils is meaningless to the point attempted to have been made.
 
Post #1 was not comparing the operating temp of Accel & Pert coils? What was it then?
 
No. It was not a comparison. There were facts stated concerning temperatures of two coils...but those facts were not a comparison between the two coils.

The OP (original post) has to do with noticing how hot a coil got when in use...but the same coil in the same location in the same situation (engine running for a specific period of time) got just as hot when it was disconnected and NOT in use.

Your perception of the situation as stated in the first post is incorrect.
 
I was testing an MSD digital 6AL the other day and had it running at 9,600 RPM for 30 minutes. That box and coil was hot as hell when I touched it. I did not hit it with the temp gun, but I know the box was over 140 degrees. Coil was about 120.
 
mopar head said:
Scientifically the pertronix coil got just as hot disconnected as it did connected.
That`s what this valleybilly gathered:)
Click to expand...

...and the valleybilly wins a cupie doll! ...scientifically speaking of course.

As the thread title might suggest, the post is about applying logic to a problem: 'The Scientific Method' if you like. It is not A Tale of Two Coils.

If a car part gets hot under use/operation it would be easy to *assume* that it gets hot because of that use. Makes sense donut?

Except...that is exactly what did NOT happen in this case.

What's the point you are trying to make here?
Click to expand...

I am a good bit wondering why that is a question.

Note the *assume* part. I am not trying to make a point. I am making a point.

During the course of working out a problem, there is a correct and an incorrect way to go about it. *Assuming* anything will maybe get you in 'misunderstand' territory. Your diagnosis will be wrong. The problem you are trying to resolve will likely still be present...and not resolved. That will not happen when 'The Scientific Method' is properly applied. ...you can substitute 'Logical Thought Process', or any other number of descriptive phrases you like.

To *assume* is not part of a method that works very good. It doesn't work very well, either!

Holey Moley. This dead horse has been beaten quite enough. To anyone yet to understand 'the point' of this thread, please: Just let it go. Understanding it is evidently not in your future.
 
canyncarvr said:
What it is: The scientific method starts when you ask a question about something that you observe. That's what google tells me anyway.

I bought a Pertronix coil some time back. I wired it in just to see if it worked. It did. I took it out, put it away for a later install date.

Just put the coil in today. Installed as instructed...bypassed the ballast. I have it mounted on the passenger side inner-fender flat. That's where my Acell 140001 has lived for decades.

Ran the car for a bit, checked the timing, hooked up a new diagnostic tach, did some carb adjustments.

That's when 'The Question' came up. I felt the Pertronix...and it was hot as hell!! 150º as measured with my non-contact IR gun. I didn't expect that...the coil having over TWICE the primary coil resistance the Acell has I figured it would sink considerably less current.

I patched the Acell back in, simply sat it a bit further back on the inner fender. I ran the car for the same amount of time I'd run the Pertronix. Checked the Acell; it was 120-130º. AHA! The Pertronix is just running too damn hot!

Here's the punchline: I happened to put my hand on the disconnected Pertronix. It was still/again too damn hot! Checked it with the temp gun...150º!

Huh?

Common sense would tell you that an operating coil would be warmer than a non-operating coil. Common sense MIGHT also tell you that if a coil ran cool under use but just happened to be sitting in a HOT place...you couldn't tell the difference between its operating temp and its 'just sitting there' temp!

And there 'ya go. What I observed told me that the Pertronix was running hot. That it was sitting adjacent to #4-6 header pipes (MUCH hotter than #2 or #8) didn't enter my mind. That's where the coil has been for many years.

Who cares about this silly story? It probably interests about zero persons. BUT...it should give the reader pause to consider how they observe things and the conclusions they come to. The Scientific Method did not work in this case. Why? Because I didn't follow it!!
Click to expand...

Science is mostly failures. You observe something, you "test" it, you get a result you didn't expect. Technically your test failed, but really science just showed you all the ways your original test was flawed.

In this case, you discovered an additional variable you didn't originally account for (heat from the headers), and unintentionally added an additional variable (moving the coil to what may be a cooler location)

Now, if you swap the coil locations and check the temperatures of both coils again while operating them and not, you may discover your second coil location is better for radiant heat than your original was. Or you may discover one of your coils absorbs and retains heat better than the other one. Really you still have too many variables, but getting closer.

And yes, your example is an excellent reason not to immediately believe every jack wagon on the internet that says "I did this thing and it worked!" without evidence that what worked was really what they thought it was, and not just dumb luck or a consequence of something completely unrelated.

Bewy said:
Post #1 was not comparing the operating temp of Accel & Pert coils? What was it then?
Click to expand...

It can't be, because he changed variables by mounting the coils in different locations when he took the temperatures. And he hasn't even begun to determine the operating temperature of either coil, because parking the coil next to a header tube is a bigger heat source than the internal resistance is. Realistically with how he took the measurements he's probably just found his under hood temperature at two different locations, since an IR gun just measures surface temperature and it's readings can be greatly effected by the actual surface it's pointed at.

If you want to actually compare the operating temperatures of the coils due to their difference in internal resistance, you'd have to eliminate all the external heat sources. Even if you just wanted to compare them head to head in the engine bay, you'd have to mount them in the same location to make a comparison. But even then you could be inadvertently testing whether a yellow coil or a black coil absorbs more radiant heat (or is read differently by IR!), or how a larger oil capacity effects heat/lag time.

And since we haven't even measured discharge voltage yet nothing that's been measured may mean a single thing with regard to how the coil actually functions

All reasons why anecdotal evidence isn't worth a hill of beans! Which was the actual point of post #1. If you read that post and didn't realize he never made a like to like comparison then you made his point for him.
 
So, you have established that the temperature of the coil remains the same regardless of the under hood temperature whether it is hooked up and functional or benign just sitting on the inner fender in the same location.
A true scientific method would be to move each coil around to different locations and record the temperature and output results from each change.
By doing this, you could establish a premium location for the coil and then test the output etc, relating to each change and plot it on a graph.
High end racers and vehicle designers have spent countless time and dollars doing this exact same thing.
Different coils, different locations, wire lengths, and such.
And the compromises to achieve the best results based on budget, output, and reliability factor into it all.
And that's the true scientific method you speak of.
 
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