Time for today's brake related question...Disc/drum combo

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dusterdoug

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I have upgraded to front discs on my Dart, and original 9" drum car. Also added 10" drums in the rear.

I have upgraded to the MP lightweight master cylinder.

Question: Do I need an adjustable proportioning valve?? Some say yes, others no. I am being told with this MC, I don't. Anyone have any real world experience either way?

My one experience with this was once I added OE disc brakes to the front of a 73 Ebody (race only) and no stopping issues what-so-ever with out one.
 
I've done a lot of different brake size changes over the years and have had to change the porportioning valve a few times. But have yet to do what you have done. So I'm realy instrested if someone can give you a definite answer. You may have to drive the car and test it. That's what I did. If one end dose all the braking without much help from the other end your going to have to do something with the valve.
 
The thing that most people don't understand about the disc brake proportioning valve is that it is not merely setting a proportional relationship between the front and rear braking force. That is what a "brake bar' in a race car does. But unless you have 4-wheel disc brakes, that is not what the PV is for.

The main function of the PV in a disc/drum system is to mitigate the problem that occurs because drum brakes are "progressive" and disc brakes are "linear".

Drum brakes are designed in such a way that as the shoe contacts the drum, the rotation of the drum makes it grab tighter. So the braking action is progressive -- you apply X amount of force to the pedal, and you get X times 2 braking action (or some other proportion -- 1.5, or 2.3, etc.).

Disc brakes, on the other hand, are linear -- you apply X amount of force at the pedal, and you get that same amount of force on the pads.

So, you can see that the PV is not just sending say, 60% of the force to the front, and 40% to the back, because that would rapidly be overwhelmed by the doubling action of the drum brake. That type of "proportioning" (60/40 split) is built into the braking system design: the size of the rear wheel cylinders, the swept area of the brake linings, the diameter of the disc, weight distribution of the vehicle -- all these factors.

What the factory PV contributes is a "non-linear" adjustment of the rear (drum) braking force. As pedal pressure increases, it "tapers off" the amount that goes to the rear brakes, applying a crude "response curve" (more like a straight line with a big kink in it).

When you adjust the PV (assuming you have an adjustable type, like on the 67-72 K-H brake package), you are changing the point at which the "kink" takes effect. This is not the same thing as changing the overall braking effect from front to rear, or rear to front.

So when people tell me they have converted to front discs, didn't add a PV, and don't have any problems with their brakes, I am guessing they just haven't tried a full range of braking scenarios from soft, feathered stop to hard high-speed braking to full-on panic stop. Because without a functioning PV, you aren't going to get optimal braking performance under all these conditions.

I really don't know anything about the design of the Wilwood or other aftermarket PVs. For all I know, they may be optimized for 4-wheel disc systems.

The non-adjustable PVs in the 73-76 A-bodies should be a reasonable match for the typical conversion setup ("slider" front discs and 10" drums). This is built into the brake junction block or "safety switch" on the disc brake cars. The 67-72 disc brake cars had a separate adjustable PV in the rear brake line.
 
i think the 73-up disc brake proportioning valve will work fine with it.. thats what i'm running with disc up front and 11" drums in the rear. only difference is i'm using the wilwood lightweight master cyl. car stops awesome..
 
When you adjust the PV (assuming you have an adjustable type, like on the 67-72 K-H brake package), you are changing the point at which the "kink" takes effect. This is not the same thing as changing the overall braking effect from front to rear, or rear to front.

So when people tell me they have converted to front discs, didn't add a PV, and don't have any problems with their brakes, I am guessing they just haven't tried a full range of braking scenarios from soft, feathered stop to hard high-speed braking to full-on panic stop. Because without a functioning PV, you aren't going to get optimal braking performance under all these conditions.
Thanks for saying and explaining this. There is a lot to setting F/R rear brake bias that a simple adjustable prop valve won't do. To the OP, yeah, there is tons of real world experience and good knowledge in this area but a lot of shortcuts are taken with using adjustable PV's; they will typically give you the right F/R proportioning over a relatively narrow range of braking system pressure, and fall outside of a good proportioning range with higher or lower system brake pressures. If you always drive on flat, smooth, dry pavement, the tire traction is good over a broad range which will tend to cover deficiencies in brake proportioning; throw in a rough road/pavement and some rain or loose gravel with a panic stop situatoin, and all of a sudden you will find out what improper proportioning is, perhaps in a bad way.

I would follow this statement: "The non-adjustable PVs in the 73-76 A-bodies should be a reasonable match for the typical conversion setup ("slider" front discs and 10" drums). "
 
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