Trans-Am info for the 1966 Barracuda

[Chris Robson]

Hello All,

Our team is considering building a 1966 Plymouth Barracuda to run in the Historic Trans Am Series.

From some limited research it appears that 3 cars were built and raced. The "factory" car was run by Team Starfish with Scott Harvey as their driver. In addition to Scott Harvey, Bruce Jennings and Charlie Rainville also drove. It appears that Al Shall and Steve Durst drove a car at limited events during the 1967 season along with at least one, or both of the other Barracudas participating in both East and West coast events. There is even a reference of Richard Petty driving one during the 1966 season. I do not know if he prepared and drove the car, or if he was a "guest driver".

So here are my questions:

Does anyone know any of the above people and have contact information?

Does anyone know of any of these cars whereabouts?
Here is one in the Pacific Northwest
[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/vintage_racer/sets/72157606722666020/"]1966 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S - Team Starfish - a set on Flickr[/ame]



Has anyone built, or is in the process of building one of these cars?

Does anyone know what engine they ran? Was it the 273, or was it something else?

...and finally,

I would love to hear from all of the drag racers, Stock car racing and road race people out their on how to modify/adapt and keep a 273 alive for road racing. What is the most HP you can get out of these (Trans Am could only run a single 4bbl, I am not sure of the size, or make)

Thanks in advance,

I look forward to hearing your comments and suggestions.

Chris Robson
R Motorsports

 

[JBurch]

Here is what little I know:

Sadly, Scott Harvey is dead.
The engines they ran were built 273's, as rules did not allow for de-strokeing, and the block's didn't allow for an over bore to reach the 5 liter limit.

A 273, built to "D" Dart specs would be a good starting point, with the application of "peroid" hot rodding.

One of the Team Starfish cars ended up with a gentleman who's last name is Martin; he wrote a book on how to make Mopars handle, published by SA Designs, now out of print. A friend has/had a copy, I will check. He raced it in GT 1 category for a while, then went back to vintage Trans-Am (I think). No idea where he or the car is.

From what I've seen (I'm 45 minuits from Watkins Glenn Internationl Race way) when I go up for Vintiage week end, there seems to be a semi loose interpertation of "peroid" correct, ie Camaro's with NEW Bowtie blocks, Boss 302 Ford's with new Ford motorsport Boss blocks. To be sure, there are some cars still with honest peroid equipment.

Go for every loop hole you can find and use them!!!!!!

Bob Tulius of Group 44 fame race a 66 Dart, and even won the Riverside race in 67.

Hope this helps.

 

[Chris Robson]

Thanks,

Every bit of info helps. We have a few vintage cars already and am (unfortunately) quite familiar with how rules are interpreted... (only cheating if you're caught takes on a whole new level)

With that said, I would like to be as close as possible to the original rules. I will however make exceptions with regard to safety (rollcage, brakes, glass, etc..) Our race shop is run by the engineer who built all of the Boss 302's at KarKraft in the '70's so we have some inside info on period correct "speed secrets"

I would love to get my hands on a copy of the book you mentioned (or a copy of a copy). What we are trying to evaluate right now, is rear ends, transmissions, and engine specs. As for the chassis, a little acid dipping and seam welding with a strong NASCAR cage and we should be about as good as anyone else.

 

[autoxcuda]

Thanks,

Every bit of info helps. We have a few vintage cars already and am (unfortunately) quite familiar with how rules are interpreted... (only cheating if you're caught takes on a whole new level)

With that said, I would like to be as close as possible to the original rules. I will however make exceptions with regard to safety (rollcage, brakes, glass, etc..) Our race shop is run by the engineer who built all of the Boss 302's at KarKraft in the '70's so we have some inside info on period correct "speed secrets"

I would love to get my hands on a copy of the book you mentioned (or a copy of a copy). What we are trying to evaluate right now, is rear ends, transmissions, and engine specs. As for the chassis, a little acid dipping and seam welding with a strong NASCAR cage and we should be about as good as anyone else.

I don't think the Martin Book will help you much for what you are doing with your experiance level. Maybe some very rough parts ideas. Pictures would be the most interesting thing. But there's a lot on the internet.

Dick Ross up at Firm Feel http://www.firmfeel.com/ in Vancouver Washington will probably be your source for torsion bars. He will be a great help for parts and ideas too.

Contact Mike Ritz at [email protected]

They do make Detroit Lockers and Torsen rear ends for Chrysler 8 3/4 rears. Contact Cass at: http://www.doctordiff.com/

Jamie Passon at www.passonperformance.com will be a good source for 4 speed parts/setup/service. He sells a aluminum case for a 4 spd that looks stock and I think if FIA legal anyways. Guys with road race Chrysler 4 speeds have been happy with his rebuilds.

Milodon just came out with a small block road race oil pan. Same workings/sump as thier Chevy and Ford road race pans you probably are familiar with.

You have to use cast iron cly heads. I'd suggest W-2's. Or if they won't fly, contact Brian at http://www.immengines.com/ for a replacement head with 1966 style valve gear geometry and I/E port shape.

Headers might start of with Dougs or TTI brands for 64-66 A-bodies, but I bet you will be modifing them to get ultimate ground clearance. Probably custom set of headers realistically.

 

[Chris Robson]

All this is great info. We have a lot of experience with Formula cars and Sports Racers, but not MOPAR vehicles, so every bit of info with regard to transmissions, engines, rear ends, etc. is awesome.

We have two projects to go before we can get this one started, but I need to start my research and begin the search for parts and suppliers.

Chris

 

[autoxcuda]

Might consider running a Ford 9" bearing housing on the end of your 8 3/4 rear. You will probably run a custom width rear anyways. Consult Dr Diff on that.

Or might consider running a floater setup but that would put you with 1970 rules??

Mopar Performance offers a aluminum rear end housing. They do not look stock at all. And I don't think ever was "legal" in Trans Am. Even though I was told by Gurney team members they ran aluminum housings sprayed with cast iron to be magnetic.

I'd think whomever your car builder uses for Ford/Chevy road race leaf springs can make a set for this Barracuda. They are just unequal length with the front segment shorter than the rear. Some advantages to that, but same theories apply.

Also you will convert the car to 4.5 x 5 wheel lug pattern. The 73-76 A-body spindles have the larger bolt pattern and have a larger inner bearing. You will need 73-76 A-body upper control arms if you have to stay stock uppers, or plenty of tubular aftermarket choices. Or just build your own. There is also a disk spindle for F/M/J bodied Mopars that is a little taller and a little lighter.

Both those spindles accept the common racing K727 upper ball joint. So they take a $12 screw in receptacle from Circle Track supply houses. From the Circle Track industry you can buy rebuild-able upper ball joints which you can change the ball joint pin height to effectively change the spindle upright height geometry.

 

[hemicop]

A few months back, one of the Mopar magizines did an interview with Bob Terrozzi which ranged from Nascar to Drag to Trans-Am stuff as he was involved with it all. He's obviously still alive & if I was that comitted to the project, I'd be hunting him down. Another possibility is to look for some lesser-known, yet still knowledgable guys from back then. There was a guy herein town that worked for Mopar & had some very strange pieces he claimed he got while working in Detriot. HUGE ported smallblock heads that had old casting numbers on them, odd, alloy stuff that I never saw before, that sort of thing.
If it were me, & given the "loose" interpretation of the rules, I'd build a stroker smallblock with a block "lightened" by way of grinding at the exterior (elininates all casting numbers) and try running that. Acid ported heads, odd firing engines, hidden fuel tanks, hidden nitrous & ridiculously lightened parts are all in that infamous "gray area" that, in talking to a former Penske team memeber from back than were all done that were just looked at as acceptable modifications (until you were caught )

 

[autoxcuda]

I've talked to Bob Torrozzi in person. He did help with the Team Starfish factory effort. Sort of an after hours from work deal. It sounded like he didn't help that much with that effort. I got the impression he wasn't really turned on by it.

 

[JBurch]

Mike Martin is the guy who wrote the book, I could loan you the book if you think it would be useful.

Let me know.

 

[Chris Robson]

Thanks guys,

With the above info, I think we can start to evaluate what we need to do to build a car. Our shop is just out side of Detroit so we have a lot of resources at our disposal.

Keep the info coming and when we start the project I will post on this site.


Thanks,

Chris Robson
R Motorsports

 

[dirty white boy]

racing leaf springs ant no problum to find,..most circle track cars thats still on leafs use mopar no matter if its a mustang or a camaro less rules dont allow it,..afco an landrum has them in mono,stacked an even carbon fiber if ya like an choice of spring rates too...

 

[Brewtus]

With that said, I would like to be as close as possible to the original rules. I will however make exceptions with regard to safety (rollcage, brakes, glass, etc..) Our race shop is run by the engineer who built all of the Boss 302's at KarKraft in the '70's so we have some inside info on period correct "speed secrets"

If I'm not mistaken, Lee Dykstra ran the Trans-Am Mustang effort out of Kar Kraft for the Bud Moore team in 1970. If he's the guy in your shop, I'd say you have a distinct advantage already! :thumbup:

 

[JTT]

HI Chris,

I'm currently preparing a Dart '65 to '66 FIA group 2 specs, which is basically the same as the early Trans Am. It's got 273, A-833 and 8.25 with 3.91:1 ratio and LSD. The suspension springs are from FFI and shocks are Konis. Front brakes are the homologated KH discs and rears are standard 10" drums. Wheels are 15" x 7".

I'm a bit in the same situation that I've been road racing other cars for 20 years, but haven't any experience of this kind of beast.

The plan is to get the car to somewhat driveable condition for the next summer. It'll be interesting to see how it behaves.

I'm looking forward to see how your Barracuda proceeds.

Regards,
Jari from Finland

 

[JTT]

Hi again,

This may be interesting to you as well: http://www.earlycuda.org/members/jberner.htm

I bought a Barracuda ´65 from Juha last year, and we have been in frequent contact as he had a Valiant '66 historic rally car project, which is now ready.

 

[Chris Robson]

Hi Jari,

Great to hear from you. We are currently performing the final assembly on a 1964 Autodynamics Formula Vee for the 50th anniversary celebration. In addition I have some work to perform on a March 783 Formula 3 car.

We picked up a 66 Barracuda, 273 4bbl, 4-speed car and it is sitting in the shop. The only issue at the moment is that the car we got is an original matching numbers car and much nicer than we originally thought. We might actually keep it and restore it for the street, rather than chop it up...

I hope to get this project started by the end of the summer and build it through the winter.

I look forward to seeing your progress.

Chris

 

[Mattax]

A lot will depend on exactly which sanctioning organization(s) you will be running with. Vintage racing in North America is done under at least a half dozen different groups each with their own rules. The FIA homogolation papers are a starting point for many but not all of the groups. AFAIK all require additional (anachronistic) safety items.

You may want/need a clean body with all the trim. OTH you may do just as well with a something a little rougher so you won't feel bad when you stretch the fenders. Depends on the group and the class you will be running with.

Currently running in vintage racing is Mike Ritz's Team Starfish car (not an original survivor btw) and Mapes's Zebra Dart (East Coast). There are a few others that run in more open classes. You may have seen the Benson's in Sportscar last year - they are running a '66 Dart and Barracuda. Closer to you there is second generation Barracuda that's made a few mid west council events.

Historically, for the first generation a-bodies, look at the Monte Carlo entries, and in the US/Canada at the Shell 4000, as well as the Trans Am efforts by Group-44, Brock Yates, and the factory teams already mentioned.

 

[Chris Robson]

Our intent is to participate in the Historic Trans Am series that runs in the US. I am speaking with a few competitors who currently run this series. I currently run in the Monoposto 70 and BOSS series. The cars I currently run have their FIA papers and/or Passport (one car was actually accepted to run at the Monaco Historics F3 event).

What I am currently trying to ascertain is what is accepted vs what was allowed during the era vs what I would do for safety measures.

Chris

 

[67Dart273]

"Some of the rest of us" have been reading this thread, too!!

Is this the book?

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Suspensions-Complete-Building-Street-Autocross/dp/B001BIXK34"]Mopar Suspensions; Complete Guide For Building Mopar Suspensions For Street, Autocross and Road Racing: Mike Martin: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

 

[Mattax]

Our intent is to participate in the Historic Trans Am series that runs in the US. I am speaking with a few competitors who currently run this series.

I thought that might be exactly what you meant. As best I can tell that series is restricted to original race cars, but it didn't sound like your a little too clean '66 is. In any event, my impression is they keep the rules and race details to the membership - you won't find it discussed out on public forums like this. Your doing the right thing talking to current participants and then the organization people.

Is this the book?

There's also a second release title "Super Street".
Ouch on the 'zon price.
It's not that specific on trans-am racing. More like Fred Puhn's How to Make Your Car Handle but focused on mopars.

 

[Chris Robson]

It is a little "tricky" with original cars vs "tribute" cars vs period correct vehicles, but a lot has to do with what your intentions are. I have some contacts within the series and am discussing how best to prepare/present a car for this series. Worst case scenario, I will just run with the SVRA/HSR. They have a great endurance series including a night event during the Sebring Historics.

Chris

 

[JTT]

On this side the pond, FIA solved the problem of originality by introducing Historic Technical Passport (HTP). This means that basically there is no requirement of any originality, as long as the car is technically according to the period specs. So for example you can convert an ordinary Ford Cortina to a Lotus Cortina (which was actually done in period as well...), or make a GT40 even from old shovels, as my good friend said...

There are pros and cons in this approach. It stopped the tricky playing with the orignal papers and chassis numbers, but it also meant that new "continuation" cars were brought to races. These are built from scratch today, with no real history at all. The development now seems to be that the original cars collect dust in museums while the newbuilds are raced.

 

[Mattax]

Jari, Thanks for posting the link. I have an article about Juha written in Finnish I think. I couldn't find anyone to translate!

In the US it is not so simple. SCCA is usually acknowledged as the setting the rules standard for amatuer autocross, rally, and roadracing. But they have little interest in vintage and historic competition so sanctioning is like the many statesand provinces - each has its own rules.

Most of the vintage groups are not limited to original race cars. SVRA is one of the groups that is restricted to original racecars but they do make an exemption for under represented cars. The 64-66 Darts are now given that allowance, thanks to Dave at Lame Horse Racing.

SCCA does have a few places to play for a older sedans/saloons - some regions have a vintage class and some owner/drivers choose to run in the newish SPO class. That has many allowances as its a relatively open class.

All this means is a lot of decisions early on about which set of rules to build to.

 

[modestojim]

Has anyone built, or is in the process of building one of these cars?

Does anyone know what engine they ran? Was it the 273, or was it something else?

In 1968 or so I worked on a Trans-Am Barracuda that ran in the San Francisco Region SCCA Series. It was an ex-factory car and had been acid dipped to make it lighter. I'm almost 70 years old now, so I probably have lost a few details and what ever I say should be taken with a grain of salt, but here goes. The engine we used was a 304 CID. Some calculator work can verify this. I think it was a 273 block with a 340 crank. Remember the class was 5 liters or 305 CID. I think we ran a 4 bbl Holly on a high-rise manifold. The headers were full length tube and what I always complained about was that they were almost half crushed under the car because it was so low. I can't remember the owners name, but it seems he could not afford to replace the exhaust system. The rear end was a 8-3/4 Sure-Grip modified with Lincoln Continental discs. I think it had 4.10 gears. The doors were welded shut, and people were always pulling on the handles so the handles stood out about a half inch or so from the thin door panel. All of the glass was faired in with body putty. This car at the time was what I called Petty Blue, and I want to say it had a white racing stripe over the drivers side, but it's been too long to be sure. In my opinion the operation was under funded and I never saw it run well enough to decide if the driver/owner was talented. I was associated with the group for about a year, maybe less, then moved out of the San Jose area. With a growing family at the time I soon had other priorities.

After reading through this whole thread, I remember that we had FIA documents on the car and every component was called out in the docs. The oil pan looked stock from the outside, and had a windage try in it.
Good luck on your project, it's interesting, that my previous project to the Barracuda was also a Formula Vee.

 

[Rat Patrol]

From "Vintage Motorsports" - They did a series of 5 articles on Trans Am....not a lot of tech info in this unfo.......

 

[CPDave]

Hi Chris,

This is a great project to take on. The early Barracudas and Darts are actually a better place to start to build a road race car than the Mustang (having built/tuned on all three I speak with a little experience: [ame]http://users.erols.com/dmapes/[/ame] ). Most of the vintage rule sets out there, for US sanctioning bodies, are based upon the SCCA 1967 GCR ([ame]http://www.scca.com/assets/UpdatedVintageGCRRuleBook.pdf[/ame]) with added "allowances" for safety, reliability, and parts availability.

Correcting Matt's post, above, SVRA used to have a requirement that cars running their Group 6 (BP, AS, TA, etc...) have an actual racing history prior to 12/31/1972, but that rule was dropped in 2006 after a vintage-car race in mid-July of 2005 at Road America in Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin, where there was an awful pileup: http://www.caranddriver.com/news/vintage-racing-takes-a-big-hit-car-news

So there is now a good deal more acceptance at SVRA for correct "tribute" recreations. SVRA is a good place to start looking for rules guidance:
http://www.svra.com/rules/

And their MOPAR specific allowances: [ame]http://www.svra.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chrysler_Corp-MoPar_64-66.pdf[/ame]

(I took the liberty of writing / negotiating the SVRA allowances when I noticed they did not have any posted for MOPARs :iconbigg: )

As is usually the case HSR has their own rules that conflict to some degree with SVRA and SCCA: [ame]http://www.hsrrace.com/Rules/FIA_CLASS_SPECIFICATIONS-2013.pdf[/ame]

Somebody noted that people were running updated blocks and other parts. Yep the TRULY correct parts are getting WAY too rare and expensive to use at the race track. Why risk an OEM K-code 289 block when you can get a much tougher FMS Boss casting and reduce your chances of cross ventilating in in the braking zone for turn one. Nothing quite like trying to haul a car down from 150 MPH after you've covered the tires & brakes with mix of hot oil and water. Same reason I'd use a replacement 340 block if I could afford it. Same goes for cranks, rods, pistons, and valve gear.

I like and observe the HSR rev limit rule even though my engine (0.045" over 318 ) is too big to run with them. Combined with good parts, that assures a lot of track time between rebuilds.

Dave