Vacuum advance tuning to maximize cruise MPG?

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mderoy340

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Looking to optimize the vacuum advance for max fuel mileage at highway cruise.
I'm thinking I need to install a vacuum gauge and tune to max vacuum at cruise.
Would like to hear from folks who have gone through this procedure. I'm not sure how far to safely push the advance up.

My setup:
73 Dart Sport 340 rebuilt with old TRW forged pistons 9.5:1, J heads, 270H cam, 727/3.23/29.1" rear tire/2600 RPM @ 70MPH
71 440 TQ dialed in with 14.5 - 14.8 AFR at cruise. Functional dual snorkel scoop with air cleaner sealed to hood.
Old MSD 6A, Autolite 65 gapped to .045, OEM dist recurved with welded up advance slots.
Current Timing at crank 24* Initial, 34* Total Mechanical
Vacuum Advance 14*@14" Vacuum advance can connected to full manifold vacuum.

I run 93 pump gas and have no ping or starter kick back. Touch the key and the car lights off immediately cold or hot.

Thanks for any input.
 
You really need to have efi with 3D fuel and ignition tables, to optimally tune. Then you can monitor things you need to know when tuning. Important things like RPM, MAP, ignition timing, fuel pulse width, AFR, and temperatures.

You may find with the mechanical advance distributor, too much timing advance when coasting down at light throttle, results in a lope. You may also notice ping at light throttle that goes away if you get into it. Connecting the vacuum to manifold may result in run away idle return, and other problems.

The adjustability of the vacuum advance can be monitored using timing light and mightyvac. Hook the hose to it, apply vacuum, then record and plot timing/vacuum. You will find where the advance starts, stops and slope of the ramp, plot that. Then carefully turn the adjustment, see again what that does. If you are good with trig math, and measuring, you can scribe marks on advance plate and distributor, or use dial indicator and measure degree travel of advance plate vs vacuum. Crank degrees is twice that.
 
Well EFI is not in the budget so the TQ has to stay.
Thanks for the adjustability tips, I plan to do some tuning today.
 
Ended up with 24*/38*/56* full manifold vacuum, 14" vacuum full canister travel 22*
No detonation, 16" vacuum at 2600RPM/70MPH
One thing I noticed is engine braking is less when you decelerate; which is a good thing from everything I've read.
I need to go on a long cruise this weekend and see if the MPG gets better.
 
Have you re-adjusted the idle speed and the idle mixture? That may help with coast down. Typically set lean mixture to curb the idle speed 30 to 50 RPM from max. Too lean results in a miss and increased HC. It may be necessary to re-adjust speed and mixture since they are inter-related. The throttle stop (idle speed screw) must stop the throttle plates from contacting and wearing the bore. Plate alignment and throttle shafts need to be free of wear related leaks, or it is difficult to meet desired idle speed with advanced timing.
 
I actually had to reset curb idle down a little ( about 50RPM) and readjust idle mixture when I bumped up the vacuum advance. My cheap Tach is not the greatest.
The RPMs are not higher when decelerating then before the change; the engine brake is just less.
 
Md
-I cant help you with the 440, as Ive never owned a BB.

-But, I may be able to help you on the 340.I have for 14 years striven for mpgs with my combo;360,10.7c/r, closed chamber eddies, .035quench, At that time;Hughes 223*flat tappet cam, 1.6arms,AG,Holley 600V-sec.I will tell you what worked for me, and you can take it from there.
-This assumes that the current tune is sharp.I see you have a 270* advertised cam, and 9.5 c/r. I see you have 24* initial and 34* total, and a 14* can.
For yours,if the the 34 is all in by2600(not likely) and the cruise vacuum is greater than 14", then the max timing available would be 34 + 14 = 48. For economy this is at least 10* short. My closed-chamber tight-quench Eddies liked 60ish degrees on 87 octane. Remember that 87 burns faster than 93, and open chambers like more timing than closed. I have been shopping for years for a 20* plus can, without luck. My timings were 14initial/34@ 3600, so at a cruise rpm of 2200, getting 60* was impossible.I think I was getting about 38*cruise timing, at the start. To overcome this I did 3 things. 1) modded my can,and 2)modded my mechanical curve, and 3) bought a dash mounted electronic dial-back advance unit.
-As to the can. This involves carefully grinding the stops back.I did this many years ago, so dont remember how much I got. Ima guessing 4*. So that got me an 18* can.
-As to the dial back device, theres only 15* max in it.
-So by now I was getting about 42*, at 2200rpm. The engine wanted more. I went back into the dizzy. I played around with springs for quite a while. i finally was able to build a 2 stage curve using a little spring and a big fat one with a long area where it didnt do anything. This gave me a very fast 16 *, and then the last 4* didnt come in til much later. So now I had 48* max. Still a lot short of what the engine was looking for.
The only option I had at this point was to increase the initial, bit by bit until the engine started complaining.But I had to bear in mind that power timing was running higher as well, so I would have to keep my foot out of it. To that end I blocked the secondaries disabled. This testing often went on for weeks so I wasnt sure if Id remember to not floor it. So what I discovered was the engine kept responding positively to more and more timing.Eventually it peaked around 56*.
-Now heres how I let the engine tell me what she wanted.Once I had the 2-stage curve in the dizzy, and verified that it wasnt detonating, and the can adjuster set full soft, I would pick a number out of a hat like 38*. Then with everything hooked up, and the dial-back device set to the midpoint of its adjustment,I just revved her up to 2200 and set the timing to 38*.Then with a large face vacuum guage installed in the cab, I would drive it.
-Oops I forgot to mention; I had previously fabricated a 2-stage throttle spring device that would work like normal and let the engine pull to 64mph(2200rpm)on the stop. Then I had a second stiffer spring engage from that point on. With this device I could always find the exact same throttle setting.
-So away I went. I had previously chosen a flat level stretch of highway, on my way to work.So every time I entered this stretch, I would check my v-gauge and mph.Then I would crank in 1/2 of the remaining travel on the D-back(about4*), and watched the mph.Honestly the V-gauge didnt help, so it didnt take long and I ditched it. The speedometer on the otherhand, told the story right off. So if the mph went up, I knew I was making more torque.So I would repeat this every day for a week and if the results were the same, then I would readjust the throttle stop the next week to get the mph back to the start mph. At the end of the week I would return the D-back to central and retime the engine another 4*.The following week was a repeat of the first and so on. As the weeks went by gains were harder to get and harder to verify, so I backed up to the last test that had good results. Then for weeks I drove with just playing with the D-back. Eventually, after 2 summers, or more, I came up with a number.
-Now lest you think that the secondaries were blocked the whole 2 summers, and I never had any fun,no not at all. There were lots of weekends in between where I returned the timing to the norm and blasted away on it.
-I should also mention this. I had previous to that time a selection of pumpkins to play with.The way I chose one for this test was; With a vacuum gauge hooked to manifold vacuum, and a fully warmed up engine, and all timing systems hooked up, I simply slowly reved the engine up until it vacuum-peaked.I reasoned that when this peak happened,reversion in the manifold had quit and now the engine was beginning to become more efficient.There would be no benefit, I reasoned, to gear it to run any slower than that,at cruise speed. The number was around 2200 so thats what I geared it for.This happened to be my favorite gears, the 3.55s, with a GearVendors O/D unit, behind my 3.09/Direct box.
So now I knew where the timing needed to be.Now I had to play with the Holley.The leaner I made it the earlier I had to start the fire.Thats how I ended up at 60* and 32 mpgUS, on a 600V-sec.
-Carb-tuning;Whole new story. But you have a TQ, which is way more adjustable in those circuits.
-So thats my story, as best as I remember.Hope it helps.
 
I would put as much in the vacuum advance as it can stand as long as there's no detonation.
 
I'm open to suggestions.
Car runs great and I'm taking a trip this weekend and will see what MPG is with the changes I did today; at least I'll have a baseline to work from.
I recently bought an MSD 8680 from another member and when it arrives I will install it. After install I'll be able to retard and advance the 6AL box while driving and see how the motor reacts. Plus for the 8680 box is I may be able to dial back and run reg or mid grade for hwy cruise.
I looked at the vacuum advance plate today and it looks like I can drill and tap a 10/32" hole and install a screw to limit plate travel. This would allow max degree adjustment stop. The 3/32 allen adjustment in the can would be used to adjust inches of vacuum to move it there.
I took the 3.91s 16 MPG HWY out and installed 3.23s. I drive my car almost everyday and I'm planning a trip this summer to see my grandsons in SD.
In FL you need to run at least 70 on the Interstate or you'll get run over. Car is pretty original and I don't want to cut it up to fit an overdrive tranny.
Gas prices are down but it's only a matter of time before it gets out of sight again. Recent refinery explosion and striking workers and it's already going up.
 
Great thread,,Has anyone had or noticed a surge at cruise while dialing in max vac advance?
Just asking as I swapped out a lean burn for factory electronic ignition. Factory spec was 16 degrees initial and at cruise say 45-60 it was surging.Took some initial timing out about 8 degrees,ok for now but need to get back into it and dial it in correct.
I hear ya,, gas went up 55 cents in 8 days here.
 
Ended up with 24*/38*/56* full manifold vacuum, 14" vacuum full canister travel 22*
No detonation, 16" vacuum at 2600RPM/70MPH
One thing I noticed is engine braking is less when you decelerate; which is a good thing from everything I've read.
I need to go on a long cruise this weekend and see if the MPG gets better.

If 24 is your initial timing 38 is your total timing wants 56?
 
Md
-I cant help you with the 440, as Ive never owned a BB.

-But, I may be able to help you on the 340.I have for 14 years striven for mpgs with my combo;360,10.7c/r, closed chamber eddies, .035quench, At that time;Hughes 223*flat tappet cam, 1.6arms,AG,Holley 600V-sec.I will tell you what worked for me, and you can take it from there.
-This assumes that the current tune is sharp.I see you have a 270* advertised cam, and 9.5 c/r. I see you have 24* initial and 34* total, and a 14* can.
For yours,if the the 34 is all in by2600(not likely) and the cruise vacuum is greater than 14", then the max timing available would be 34 + 14 = 48. For economy this is at least 10* short. My closed-chamber tight-quench Eddies liked 60ish degrees on 87 octane. Remember that 87 burns faster than 93, and open chambers like more timing than closed. I have been shopping for years for a 20* plus can, without luck. My timings were 14initial/34@ 3600, so at a cruise rpm of 2200, getting 60* was impossible.I think I was getting about 38*cruise timing, at the start. To overcome this I did 3 things. 1) modded my can,and 2)modded my mechanical curve, and 3) bought a dash mounted electronic dial-back advance unit.
-As to the can. This involves carefully grinding the stops back.I did this many years ago, so dont remember how much I got. Ima guessing 4*. So that got me an 18* can.
-As to the dial back device, theres only 15* max in it.
-So by now I was getting about 42*, at 2200rpm. The engine wanted more. I went back into the dizzy. I played around with springs for quite a while. i finally was able to build a 2 stage curve using a little spring and a big fat one with a long area where it didnt do anything. This gave me a very fast 16 *, and then the last 4* didnt come in til much later. So now I had 48* max. Still a lot short of what the engine was looking for.
The only option I had at this point was to increase the initial, bit by bit until the engine started complaining.But I had to bear in mind that power timing was running higher as well, so I would have to keep my foot out of it. To that end I blocked the secondaries disabled. This testing often went on for weeks so I wasnt sure if Id remember to not floor it. So what I discovered was the engine kept responding positively to more and more timing.Eventually it peaked around 56*.
-Now heres how I let the engine tell me what she wanted.Once I had the 2-stage curve in the dizzy, and verified that it wasnt detonating, and the can adjuster set full soft, I would pick a number out of a hat like 38*. Then with everything hooked up, and the dial-back device set to the midpoint of its adjustment,I just revved her up to 2200 and set the timing to 38*.Then with a large face vacuum guage installed in the cab, I would drive it.
-Oops I forgot to mention; I had previously fabricated a 2-stage throttle spring device that would work like normal and let the engine pull to 64mph(2200rpm)on the stop. Then I had a second stiffer spring engage from that point on. With this device I could always find the exact same throttle setting.
-So away I went. I had previously chosen a flat level stretch of highway, on my way to work.So every time I entered this stretch, I would check my v-gauge and mph.Then I would crank in 1/2 of the remaining travel on the D-back(about4*), and watched the mph.Honestly the V-gauge didnt help, so it didnt take long and I ditched it. The speedometer on the otherhand, told the story right off. So if the mph went up, I knew I was making more torque.So I would repeat this every day for a week and if the results were the same, then I would readjust the throttle stop the next week to get the mph back to the start mph. At the end of the week I would return the D-back to central and retime the engine another 4*.The following week was a repeat of the first and so on. As the weeks went by gains were harder to get and harder to verify, so I backed up to the last test that had good results. Then for weeks I drove with just playing with the D-back. Eventually, after 2 summers, or more, I came up with a number.
-Now lest you think that the secondaries were blocked the whole 2 summers, and I never had any fun,no not at all. There were lots of weekends in between where I returned the timing to the norm and blasted away on it.
-I should also mention this. I had previous to that time a selection of pumpkins to play with.The way I chose one for this test was; With a vacuum gauge hooked to manifold vacuum, and a fully warmed up engine, and all timing systems hooked up, I simply slowly reved the engine up until it vacuum-peaked.I reasoned that when this peak happened,reversion in the manifold had quit and now the engine was beginning to become more efficient.There would be no benefit, I reasoned, to gear it to run any slower than that,at cruise speed. The number was around 2200 so thats what I geared it for.This happened to be my favorite gears, the 3.55s, with a GearVendors O/D unit, behind my 3.09/Direct box.
So now I knew where the timing needed to be.Now I had to play with the Holley.The leaner I made it the earlier I had to start the fire.Thats how I ended up at 60* and 32 mpgUS, on a 600V-sec.
-Carb-tuning;Whole new story. But you have a TQ, which is way more adjustable in those circuits.
-So thats my story, as best as I remember.Hope it helps.

AJ/FormS Thanks for taking the time to type all that info. I will definitely do some readings today with this info. I was actually planning to grind the can stop today to increase the 22* I now have at the crank.
 
md
Are you saying that your current can has 22* in it? Is that before modding? Me want,one! There should be a number on the arm; any idea what it is. Whats it out of? Im so jealous.
 
md
Are you saying that your current can has 22* in it? Is that before modding? Me want,one! There should be a number on the arm; any idea what it is. Whats it out of? Im so jealous.

All my #s crank degrees. Can is marked 11 for dizzy degrees, but I'm really only getting 9 from it. I'm going to grind the stop down today.
 
Ok,now Im confused. In post 14, you say increase the 22 at the crank you now have. How does that apply to the 18* in the can, now?
EDIT
Ok, gotcha. Still, any idea what that can is out of?
I had a bunch of cans. I sacrificed one of them, and cut it open, to see how the mechanism worked. Theres quite a bit of room to mod the external stop, before running into limits inside the can. I believe my first attempt got me plus 4 degrees. There was a time I went too far and the rotor started to fire to the wrong towers under full vacuum advance. I had to rephase the reluctor. Its a large window but a trick to get centered in it when getting up near 60*. For a while I kicked around the idea of getting a MicroSquirt and support works,to computerize the timing.But in the end I got everything pretty close, and so abandoned the idea.
As I was tuning this can, I discovered that under light loads and throttle settings, the engine responded well to the extra timing while just tooling around.The off idle response was much smoother and the engine became torquier.
Some guys talk about lack of engine braking while tuning this can. Well Im not buying that its can related. Reason being that as soon as the butterflies return to idle the can is out of the circuit. I think they may be starting with too much initial. Thats why I tuned mine from 14*initial. So if you run into that and it becomes objectionable, you might consider backing up your initial some, and filing your stops back. With a manual trans, I really like my engine braking. Passengers hate it.They dont like more than a couple of bunny-hops. I, at least, have the steering wheel to hang on to. My wife wont ride with me much,anymore.
 
Nice topic.
Didn't read it indepth yet but I did notice mderoy has his vacuum hooked up on full intake vacuum, while AJ/Forms has it connected to ported vacuum.
 
md
Are you saying that your current can has 22* in it? Is that before modding? Me want,one! There should be a number on the arm; any idea what it is. Whats it out of? Im so jealous.

marked 11R on the arm
77 Dodge B200 360 2brl 10-12*@12.5" dizzy #3874115
 
BBM; yes Im hooked to the spark port.

md;
thanks for the pn.Unbelievably, I have a complete 360 sitting here from a 77 van. I will cross reference and see if maybe I have had one on the yard here for 10 years already.
-Ok, Thanks to BBM for pointing out that you are hooked to full manifold vacuum. I missed that. Partly because of the way Ive been reading your posts. Are you still running it that way?
-The reason I ask is because it may limit your total possible advance.Let me explain. Lets take as givens; theres 18*@14" in the can, initial is 24*, and power is 34*, and it idles at 11inches.
So lets say at 11 inches the can pulls 14* OF THOSE 24 INITIAL measured on the timing lite. That means 24 less 14 = 10 actual initial. Since we know 34 is the max also measured the same way; then there is 10* in the dist.cam. So then when the vacuum drops out at WOT, theres only 10 + 10=20* of power timing. And the max cruise timing would be 38*( 10+10+18=38 ). I think Im reading your post wrong, somehow.
-Im wondering if you didnt actually set the timing with the can out, at 24* and then hooked the can back up and are then idling at 24 +14@ 11"Ima guessing at this number)=38*. Power would still be 34* and cruise could be as high as 46@ 2600, assuming 6* centrifugal of the 10* comes in that early.So as to the 56*, I am again bewildered.My math works out to (24+10 mechanical)+(18 max in the can)=52.

-Consider how it works when youre bombing around.
-It kinda works ok, except under light throttle, low rpm, the advance is always going the wrong way.The advance provided by the can is falling with falling manifold vacuum just when it needs to be rising with rising vacuum that would be provided by the spark port.
-You have to understand how the sparkport vacuum works compared to manifold vacuum.If you installed 2 V-gauges and put them in the cab,you will quickly see what Im getting at.
-Try to imagine some driving situations, and you will soon see what Im talking about.These situations must involve part throttle accelerations going to light cruising, and the reverse thereof.Then when you stand on it a little harder, say at 10"vac. there is way too much timing in it. Only when you go to WOT does the V-can finally go to near zero advance.
So it works at idle and WOT and maybe a few places in between, but a lot of the time, say between 4" and 10" vacuum the engine will be seeing too much advance.
-Your combo might be Ok with it (9.5c/r iron open chambers), But I know my Eddies at 11.2c/r, did not like it.
-Another thing I did was map out my ignition curve and can curve.This so I knew exactly how much advance I had at any rpm and vacuum at the sparkport.(with a vacuum gauge teed into the sparkport line).I strongly urge you to do the same.Then you will quickly see what i may not be explaining that well. Then you may decide to put the vacuum source back on the sparkport.

-Youve got some great ideas, and are pretty focused about it, even to the extent of purchasing the dial back timing device.Your way will lead to better economy,thats for sure, but using the sparkport will get you the exact same cruise timing, and not be risking your bearings.Having said that, I can see you are no newbe at this, so if it works for you,( that is; detonation free ), then I will have learned something along side of you, and will return the thanks.
Alright, enough for now. My head hurts.
Did I read you were going on a roadtrip? Well then; Have a nice trip.
 
My motor likes a lot of initial timing with a fast curve. I did not build this motor it cam with the car and is #s matching. I crudely degreed the cam using a dial indicator and readings off the crank. It's around 270 duration and has .435 lift at the valves. I check the timing chain by watching the rotor as I rotated the motor CW, then CCW and the chain is not worn out. The motor starts to make real power around 2300 and I suspect it has a cheater cam in it.
I've thought about swapping in another cam, but decided to tune what I have. I have a 67 Dart that is almost done for a drag car so the Dart Sport is my DD cruiser.

I'm running full manifold vacuum, engine idles in Neutral and Drive at 700 rpm 15" Vac

All timing #s are at the crankshaft
Initial mechanical at idle 24* + 14* mechanical = 38* total mechanical, all in by 2200 RPM
Vacuum advance 22* @ 15"

With vacuum advance connected at idle 24*I+22V* = 46*
With vacuum advance connected at and above 2200 rpm 38*TM+22*V = 60*

Yesterday I did not have Vacuum can setup right so I pulled it off this morning and grouund the mechanical stop. Put it back in and know have 28*V at the crank in max allen screw adjust.

The motor did not like it and I kept decreasing the adjustment and rechecking with my Mighty Vac pump, and settled at 22*V@15"

As AJ mentioned I did have to tune the can to 15" to keep my initial timing bumped up at idle since I'm using full manifold vacuum as my source.

After getting the vacuum advance set to 22*V I had to reset the idle air fuel ratio and primary mixture screw on the TQ tree. With the wideband it's a piece of cake.

Took it for a ride an gained an 1.5" vacuum at highway cruise. I also took AJs advice and watch the vacuum gauge peak at 2500 rpm. The motor is putting out more torque and I felt it during the up shifts. My trans has a TF2 shift kit and does not slip; I took 1 turn out of the throttle valve linkage.

I think I'm dead nuts on or very close to a good street car tune. When I get the MSD timing box I'll do the adjusting from the dash and watch for the MPH change.
 
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