valve chatter 360 magnum

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Abodysrule

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My 360 magnum crate engine is a BEAST in my '67 dart. It dyno'd at 375hp, 420 lb-ft torque (builder was Performance Injection Equipment). I have 2.76's (cruiser) in the 8.75 chunk (posi) and if I hit the gas a bit too much when the light turns green, it spins both 215 60R/15 rear tires. My A904 builder (A&A Transmission) put a lower 1st and 2nd gear in there to compliment the 2.76 rear (and it is a very nice compliment).

Anyway, I notice that my engine has what I recognize as valve or lifter chatter. I thought it sounded like the passenger side, and when I moved over there it sounded like the driver side, and then I settled on the middle, where the lifters are, under the intake. Anyway, I consulted the builder and got, "it's common for the 360 magnum to have this noise." I did some digging online and indeed many report this issue, some saying it's a lifter preload issue, often with much adjusting they can't solve the noise, although a few succeeded (I admit I don't understand this as these are hydraulic lifters). Some said that they got rid of the noise by using a heavier weight oil. I mentioned that last bit, because I also noticed that the oil pressure in my engine is like 60 psi when cold, but after it's all warmed up, it's more like 10 psi/1000 rpm. So, for example, when cruising at 2500 rpm the oil pressure is 25 psi. I guess that's OK, but lower e.g. than my slant six was, which ran, warmed up, at closer to 20psi/1000 rpm (also using an A904). Do 360 magnum's run at lower oil pressure? My engine builder added, unrelated to the valve noise issue, but rather directed to the oil pressure question, "...you can run heavier weight oil if you're uncomfortable with the oil pressure..."

So, what are your thoughts on the lifter chatter issue with the magnum engines? I currently use Lucas Hot Rod oil 10W-40, as recommended by the engine builder. Anyone use heavier weight oil to address either lower oil pressure or lifter chatter noise in a 360 magnum? I live in a warm climate, California, so heavier weight oil shouldn't be an issue for me. I don't mind the noise if it's not damaging the engine. It's not extreme, but from years of experience with many many engines, I immediately recognized it and would otherwise find it annoying.

Thoughts?

Brian
 
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The crank bearing clearance is too loose or the crank and/or bearings are damaged (from improper installation or use), causing a big leak into the pan before oiling the valvetrain, which is not adjustable. Thicker oil is a band aid until you can fix the bottom end, then change the oil and filter every 3000 and don't hammer on it cold.
 
You have an oil pressure issue. Could be one of several issues. Bad or wrong lifters. Worn lifter bores, Oil passage plug at the end of the lifter galley was not installed<<< Common for shops to forget this plug. Stop running that engine until you look at things. Cut the filter apart and see if you already damaged the engine

1721899447949.png
 
Abodysrule said:
My 360 magnum crate engine is a BEAST in my '67 dart. It dyno'd at 375hp, 420 lb-ft torque (builder was Performance Injection Equipment). I have 2.76's (cruiser) in the 8.75 chunk (posi) and if I hit the gas a bit too much when the light turns green, it spins both 215 60R/15 rear tires. My A904 builder (A&A Transmission) put a lower 1st and 2nd gear in there to compliment the 2.76 rear (and it is a very nice compliment).

Anyway, I notice that my engine has what I recognize as valve or lifter chatter. I thought it sounded like the passenger side, and when I moved over there it sounded like the driver side, and then I settled on the middle, where the lifters are, under the intake. Anyway, I consulted the builder and got, "it's common for the 360 magnum to have this noise." I did some digging online and indeed many report this issue, some saying it's a lifter preload issue, often with much adjusting they can't solve the noise, although a few succeeded (I admit I don't understand this as these are hydraulic lifters). Some said that they got rid of the noise by using a heavier weight oil. I mentioned that last bit, because I also noticed that the oil pressure in my engine is like 60 psi when cold, but after it's all warmed up, it's more like 10 psi/1000 rpm. So, for example, when cruising at 2500 rpm the oil pressure is 25 psi. I guess that's OK, but lower e.g. than my slant six was, which ran, warmed up, at closer to 20psi/1000 rpm (also using an A904). Do 360 magnum's run at lower oil pressure? My engine builder added, unrelated to the valve noise issue, but rather directed to the oil pressure question, "...you can run heavier weight oil if you're uncomfortable with the oil pressure..."

So, what are your thoughts on the lifter chatter issue with the magnum engines? I currently use Lucas Hot Rod oil 10W-40, as recommended by the engine builder. Anyone use heavier weight oil to address either lower oil pressure or lifter chatter noise in a 360 magnum? I live in a warm climate, California, so heavier weight oil shouldn't be an issue for me. I don't mind the noise if it's not damaging the engine. It's not extreme, but from years of experience with many many engines, I immediately recognized it and would otherwise find it annoying.

Thoughts?

Brian
Click to expand...
Does it make this noise after an aggressive launch and you lift off the throttle a little bit... that's when the noise occurs? Kind of like loose rocker arms?

Reason why I'm asking is I hear a similar noise in my engine and I cannot figure this out...
 
OK, so the noise is at idle, when I throttle it I don't hear it. It's very slight, just noticeable. No, he didn't forget the galley plug or oil would be pouring out of the back, no? Incidentally, my 90 degree oil filter adapter had a leak early on, after a few tuning sessions, and I ended up pulling it off and reinstalling with a different seal; out of curiosity I cut that filter and it was clean as a whistle.

It's a 360 magnum with roller rockers, not sure which cam, but it's new and new lifters. It also has a double roller timing chain.

The oil pressure when I first start it is 60 psi, and it holds while driving for a bit, but after the oil gets hot it drops. At cruise on the highway, it's just under 30 psi, so I was estimating about 10 psi/1000rpm, might be a bit higher but certainly not 15.
 
So
Abodysrule said:
OK, so the noise is at idle, when I throttle it I don't hear it. It's very slight, just noticeable. No, he didn't forget the galley plug or oil would be pouring out of the back, no? Incidentally, my 90 degree oil filter adapter had a leak early on, after a few tuning sessions, and I ended up pulling it off and reinstalling with a different seal; out of curiosity I cut that filter and it was clean as a whistle.

It's a 360 magnum with roller rockers, not sure which cam, but it's new and new lifters. It also has a double roller timing chain.

The oil pressure when I first start it is 60 psi, and it holds while driving for a bit, but after the oil gets hot it drops. At cruise on the highway, it's just under 30 psi, so I was estimating about 10 psi/1000rpm, might be a bit higher but certainly not 15.
Click to expand...

On the drivers side oil gallery there is an external and internal plug. You can leave the internal plug out and not have an external leak.

That’s the plug they are talking about.
 
Abodysrule said:
OK, so the noise is at idle, when I throttle it I don't hear it. It's very slight, just noticeable. No, he didn't forget the galley plug or oil would be pouring out of the back, no? Incidentally, my 90 degree oil filter adapter had a leak early on, after a few tuning sessions, and I ended up pulling it off and reinstalling with a different seal; out of curiosity I cut that filter and it was clean as a whistle.

It's a 360 magnum with roller rockers, not sure which cam, but it's new and new lifters. It also has a double roller timing chain.

The oil pressure when I first start it is 60 psi, and it holds while driving for a bit, but after the oil gets hot it drops. At cruise on the highway, it's just under 30 psi, so I was estimating about 10 psi/1000rpm, might be a bit higher but certainly not 15.
Click to expand...
10 PSI per 1000 RPM is a bare minimum. I'd want it higher. I wish I was of more help.
 
With a stock oil pump, the pressure is fine. I agree with your builder, put some 20w50 in there if it bothers you. Will probably clear up the chatter you are hearing at idle.

Comparing it to a slant oil pump is apples to oranges as the stock slant six oil pump is “high volume”. Also if Dutra worked his magic on the oil pump, it was higher than stock anyway.
 
Abodysrule said:
My 360 magnum crate engine is a BEAST in my '67 dart. It dyno'd at 375hp, 420 lb-ft torque (builder was Performance Injection Equipment). I have 2.76's (cruiser) in the 8.75 chunk (posi) and if I hit the gas a bit too much when the light turns green, it spins both 215 60R/15 rear tires. My A904 builder (A&A Transmission) put a lower 1st and 2nd gear in there to compliment the 2.76 rear (and it is a very nice compliment).

Anyway, I notice that my engine has what I recognize as valve or lifter chatter. I thought it sounded like the passenger side, and when I moved over there it sounded like the driver side, and then I settled on the middle, where the lifters are, under the intake. Anyway, I consulted the builder and got, "it's common for the 360 magnum to have this noise." I did some digging online and indeed many report this issue, some saying it's a lifter preload issue, often with much adjusting they can't solve the noise, although a few succeeded (I admit I don't understand this as these are hydraulic lifters). Some said that they got rid of the noise by using a heavier weight oil. I mentioned that last bit, because I also noticed that the oil pressure in my engine is like 60 psi when cold, but after it's all warmed up, it's more like 10 psi/1000 rpm. So, for example, when cruising at 2500 rpm the oil pressure is 25 psi. I guess that's OK, but lower e.g. than my slant six was, which ran, warmed up, at closer to 20psi/1000 rpm (also using an A904). Do 360 magnum's run at lower oil pressure? My engine builder added, unrelated to the valve noise issue, but rather directed to the oil pressure question, "...you can run heavier weight oil if you're uncomfortable with the oil pressure..."

So, what are your thoughts on the lifter chatter issue with the magnum engines? I currently use Lucas Hot Rod oil 10W-40, as recommended by the engine builder. Anyone use heavier weight oil to address either lower oil pressure or lifter chatter noise in a 360 magnum? I live in a warm climate, California, so heavier weight oil shouldn't be an issue for me. I don't mind the noise if it's not damaging the engine. It's not extreme, but from years of experience with many many engines, I immediately recognized it and would otherwise find it annoying.

Thoughts?

Brian
Click to expand...
10 psi? Well there's your issue
 
Newbomb Turk said:
So


On the drivers side oil gallery there is an external and internal plug. You can leave the internal plug out and not have an external leak.

That’s the plug they are talking about.
Click to expand...
Would it have 60 psi cold if that plug were missing?
 
MidnightSwinger said:
With a stock oil pump, the pressure is fine. I agree with your builder, put some 20w50 in there if it bothers you. Will probably clear up the chatter you are hearing at idle.

Comparing it to a slant oil pump is apples to oranges as the stock slant six oil pump is “high volume”. Also if Dutra worked his magic on the oil pump, it was higher than stock anyway.
Click to expand...
That's what the builder said, stock oil pump this is within acceptable range. Yeah, Doug built my slant and its oil pump, so excellent oil pressure there - he's the man.

I might try 20w50 on next oil change. Thanks all.
 
Your oil pressure is too low for my liking. 10psi might be the cause of excessive noise too. I have a mopar crate 402 and the valve train isn’t quiet, but not crazy loud either. I have 80 psi cold, 30 psi hot idling in gear, and it increases throughout the range up to 65-70psi at high rpm…

If you have a magnum you have a roller cam and you don’t need Lucas high zinc oil either, but it won’t hurt.
 
So many questions,

1. Is it a hydraulic roller cam?
2. Does it have adjustable rockers?
3. Do you know what the preload is?
4. Do you know what the bearing clearance is?
5. Have you tried any adjustments to get the noise to stop/quiet down?
6. Does it have stock magnum roller lifters in it?

Before I did anything at all I’d figure out where the preload is now on the lifter and try a few different adjustments to see if it makes any difference. That would be my step 1.
 
Abodysrule said:
It has 60 psi cold, same noise.
Click to expand...
Pushrod tunnel contact? Rockers tapping on the retainers?

Sorry, IDK about oil-pressure, I just have the stock gauge, which I never look at anyway.
One thing I can tell you tho, is that with 15W40, my oil-filter popped up off the base and spewed oil onto my headers. That's a fire hazzard.
So I installed a second plate, doubled the number of holes, and indexed the plates together. Finally I rummaged thru my parts bins and found a plate hold-down adapter with a hex on the outside. I drilled the center hole out as far as I dared. With these changes, that fixed it.
In the end, I went back to a quality 10W30.

BTW, I have adjustable Rocker arms, and run a preload of 1/2 turn or less. This pretty much eliminates the possibility of lifter pump-up, and so, my little 367 is no stranger to 7200,,, and more. But that's not the point, which is,
that I wanted to increase oiling to the top end, and I thought 15W40 might get me there. In the end, I increased oiling in a different way, that then required getting the oil back into the pan in a timely manner.
Engine now has over 100,000 miles on it, and the aluminum roller-tipped rockers seem to be doing just fine.
 
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Definitely would try heavier oil to start with.

Anyone had experience with an oil pump spring becoming weak after warm up? Wondering if replacing with a higher pressure spring would help?
 
It is roller rockers, not sure what the preload is, I didn't build it. Yeah, I was a little uncomfortable with that pressure, but the builder assures me it's fine within stock oil pump specs.
 
Abodysrule said:
It is roller rockers, not sure what the preload is, I didn't build it. Yeah, I was a little uncomfortable with that pressure, but the builder assures me it's fine within stock oil pump specs.
Click to expand...
The builder’s is the advice I would listen to above anyone else. If you want to spend money, put a high volume pump and pickup in. You’ll get your psi, to what advantage? I don’t know. If it runs hard and it’s not eating itself, what’s the problem?
 
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