Waking Up a Turd

[AJ/FormS]

Fifth: #7 rod is bent. I found this out whilst trying to measure how far down the pistons sit. One side was down .092 the other side of the same piston down .102

Kindof depends on what you call a side. If you took got those numbers on the wristpin axis then yeah it could be bent.
But if you measured at 90* to the wrist pin axis, then that is just piston rock; average the numbers and you get the proper deck clearance.

There is evidence that all of the exhaust valves hit the pistons at some point. Maybe it had been over reved?

Or jumped the chain.

Nice to see yur back on the case

 

[Mile Maker]

Kindof depends on what you call a side. If you took got those numbers on the wristpin axis then yeah it could be bent.
But if you measured at 90* to the wrist pin axis, then that is just piston rock; average the numbers and you get the proper deck clearance.

Oh believe me. The #7 rod is bent. Complete with abnormal wear pattern on the piston skirt.
Numbers were taken at the pin axis (or as close as i could get) and i had a friend help me verify.
Once i removed it, We could hold it up and see the bend.

 

[jay27]

Looks like someone ridge reamed the block and found some 1971 flat top pistons , don't see those often. Those markings on the cam (purple , red and white ) do not sound like a mopar cam , do you have a pic?

 

[Bewy]

Could be P4120231 cam.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Could be P4120231 cam.

284/.484/108, and 241@.050

 

[rumblefish360]

Could be P4120231 cam.

All the purple cams are marked/painted in the same manner which can vary year to year. Only at the end of the cam is there a part number stamped.

 

[Mile Maker]

Here are a couple of pics of the mystery cam. There are no numbers on it that i can see.
I also slipped it back into the block to take some more measurements. I had a helper the last time we were taking measurements, and i didnt realize she was not writing stuff down, So now i dont know how to find any valve open / closing events without reassembling everything.
I come up with: Its a split duration cam. But the numbers don't match any MP cam on the list i have.
I took the duration events at .050 at the cam, Maybe this was wrong, Maybe i should have used .033, so it would be duration at the valve? Im sure someone can let me know... These duration numbers seem small for how lumpy the engine idled.
Inlet exhaust
Lift (cam) .313 .322
Lift Valve .469 .483
duration @.50 224 232
installed center 107.5 115.5 btdc These were taken before we dissembled everything

I'm actively researching what i think will be a great combo, I will post it up for the groups input when i have my numbers to together. I'm relying heavily on the "Max Performance small block" book by Larry Shepard, and the recommendations by this group to select parts.

 

[jay27]

Here are a couple of pics of the mystery cam. There are no numbers on it that i can see.
I also slipped it back into the block to take some more measurements. I had a helper the last time we were taking measurements, and i didnt realize she was not writing stuff down, So now i dont know how to find any valve open / closing events without reassembling everything.
I come up with: Its a split duration cam. But the numbers don't match any MP cam on the list i have.
I took the duration events at .050 at the cam, Maybe this was wrong, Maybe i should have used .033, so it would be duration at the valve? Im sure someone can let me know... These duration numbers seem small for how lumpy the engine idled.
Inlet exhaust
Lift (cam) .313 .322
Lift Valve .469 .483
duration @.50 224 232
installed center 107.5 115.5 btdc These were taken before we dissembled everything

I'm actively researching what i think will be a great combo, I will post it up for the groups input when i have my numbers to together. I'm relying heavily on the "Max Performance small block" book by Larry Shepard, and the recommendations by this group to select parts.

View attachment 1715685610

View attachment 1715685611

View attachment 1715685612

View attachment 1715685613

 

[jay27]

It's an old white box cam , there was a .465 224 @.50 and .480? 230@ .50 cam but dont remember the exact specs , it would have been lazy down low with what you had. You have a good base to start with , are you planning on a hydraulic , hyd roller , solid or solid roller cam in your rebuild?

 

[Mile Maker]

So, as i keep finding some surprises, and life gets in the way, This project keeps evolving. I recently found out that i would need to buy my mother a house, So the budget got smacked down a bunch.... Tentatively I'm planning to rebuild the bottom end, And running these stock J heads, if they check out OK.
In the future i'm planning on updating the heads. Likely a set of Edelbrock RPM heads.
Edelbrock performer RPM intake.

Im using an online calculator, by Wallace Racing to help me figure out compression ratios / cranking pressure.
So far, i have been comparing the Icon RHF +7cc forged pistons. The Icon +9.6cc dish, and the KB +5 cc flat tops. and the edelbrock 65CC heads. Likely Scat
Scat Pro Comp I-Beam Connecting Rods 2-ICR6123-2124
If anyone has a negative experience with these rods, let me know. They seem like a nice upgrade, without too much cash.
My goal is to build an engine, that will safely use pump gas, and later on swap to aluminum heads. Earlier on i toyed with the idea of a blower, But i have gave up on that idea. Im going to keep a carb, and make a great NA driver.

Here is an example of the data from the Wallace racing calculator.

Im not sure about the 2 sets of data, The cranking pressure VS the gauge pressure. I used a different calculator online to get the different static compression ratio numbers.
This example is from the Icon +7 cc pistons, with a 0 deck height, .040 head gasket, and a Comp Xtreme energy cam.

Maybe this cam is still too big for the street driving i want to do. the next lower 262 cam is also on my radar. Its a 1300 - 5600 cam
Grind Number: XE268H
Engine Family: Chrysler 273-360 c.i. 8 Cylinder (1964-2002)
RPM Operating Range: 1,600-5,800
Cam Type: Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Lifter Style: Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Camshaft Series: Xtreme Energy
Camshaft Gear Attachment: 1-Bolt
Usage: Street/Performance
Valve Springs Required: Yes
Camshaft Material: Cast Iron
California Proposition 65: WARNING: Cancer and Reproductive Harm P65Warnings.ca.gov
Advertised Intake Duration: 268
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 280
Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 224
Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 230
Intake Valve Lift: 0.477
Exhaust Valve Lift: 0.48
Lobe Separation: 110
Assembly Lubricant Included: Yes
Intake Centerline: 106
Lobe Lift Intake: 0.318
Lobe Lift Exhaust: 0.32
Valve Timing @ 0.006 Lift:
Exhaust Close ATDC: 26
Exhaust Open BBDC: 74

Intake Open BTDC: 28
Intake Close ABDC: 60

 

[Mile Maker]

Richard Holdener has a channel on you tube that dyno tests engines.
He modified a 360 with a very similar setup that i am looking for, With this XE268H cam that made 434 FTLBS and 387 HP
He did have better heads on it, than i do. And he never stated what compression ratio pistons he had were. Likely it was lower compression than i am looking at building. Seems like it was a decent combo.

 

[67autocross]

I have those scat rods in a 340 that spins out over 7000rpm...as you likely know you can’t redo stock rods in Canada for the price of those new.
As for the comp 268h( similar specs to the sbm 268) it’s a baby of a cam, I have one in the 30 over 350 in my square body and I drive it all year here in Manitoba...my seat of the *** guess is it makes 350hp with a stock style intake and 650 Holley vac secondary...in a 2wd truck I personally would go bigger

 

[mgoblue9798]

So, as i keep finding some surprises, and life gets in the way, This project keeps evolving. I recently found out that i would need to buy my mother a house, So the budget got smacked down a bunch.... Tentatively I'm planning to rebuild the bottom end, And running these stock J heads, if they check out OK.
In the future i'm planning on updating the heads. Likely a set of Edelbrock RPM heads.
Edelbrock performer RPM intake.

Im using an online calculator, by Wallace Racing to help me figure out compression ratios / cranking pressure.
So far, i have been comparing the Icon RHF +7cc forged pistons. The Icon +9.6cc dish, and the KB +5 cc flat tops. and the edelbrock 65CC heads. Likely Scat
Scat Pro Comp I-Beam Connecting Rods 2-ICR6123-2124
If anyone has a negative experience with these rods, let me know. They seem like a nice upgrade, without too much cash.
My goal is to build an engine, that will safely use pump gas, and later on swap to aluminum heads. Earlier on i toyed with the idea of a blower, But i have gave up on that idea. Im going to keep a carb, and make a great NA driver.

Here is an example of the data from the Wallace racing calculator.
View attachment 1715685649

Im not sure about the 2 sets of data, The cranking pressure VS the gauge pressure. I used a different calculator online to get the different static compression ratio numbers.
This example is from the Icon +7 cc pistons, with a 0 deck height, .040 head gasket, and a Comp Xtreme energy cam.

Maybe this cam is still too big for the street driving i want to do. the next lower 262 cam is also on my radar. Its a 1300 - 5600 cam
Grind Number: XE268H
Engine Family: Chrysler 273-360 c.i. 8 Cylinder (1964-2002)
RPM Operating Range: 1,600-5,800
Cam Type: Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Lifter Style: Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Camshaft Series: Xtreme Energy
Camshaft Gear Attachment: 1-Bolt
Usage: Street/Performance
Valve Springs Required: Yes
Camshaft Material: Cast Iron
California Proposition 65: WARNING: Cancer and Reproductive Harm P65Warnings.ca.gov
Advertised Intake Duration: 268
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 280
Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 224
Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 230
Intake Valve Lift: 0.477
Exhaust Valve Lift: 0.48
Lobe Separation: 110
Assembly Lubricant Included: Yes
Intake Centerline: 106
Lobe Lift Intake: 0.318
Lobe Lift Exhaust: 0.32
Valve Timing @ 0.006 Lift:
Exhaust Close ATDC: 26
Exhaust Open BBDC: 74
View attachment 1715685668
Intake Open BTDC: 28
Intake Close ABDC: 60

Please don't take this the wrong way as I am just thinking out loud trying to help. If my budget was really tight, I would probably just swap in a 5.9 with a regrind cam for now. Build your other engine the way you want as funds allow. You can always sell the 5.9 when your new motor is built and get your money back out of it.

 

[mgoblue9798]

Richard Holdener has a channel on you tube that dyno tests engines.
He modified a 360 with a very similar setup that i am looking for, With this XE268H cam that made 434 FTLBS and 387 HP
He did have better heads on it, than i do. And he never stated what compression ratio pistons he had were. Likely it was lower compression than i am looking at building. Seems like it was a decent combo.

I like watching these dyno videos to see what different combos will do, but only compare the number to other numbers run on the same dyno. Westech/ HotRod dyno has a rep for being a little happy.

 

[rumblefish360]

Please don't take this the wrong way as I am just thinking out loud trying to help. If my budget was really tight, I would probably just swap in a 5.9 with a regrind cam for now. Build your other engine the way you want as funds allow. You can always sell the 5.9 when your new motor is built and get your money back out of it.

I like this route. I’m doing it myself right now. The ‘00-5.9 in my ‘79 B body is in excellent shape. (Only 80K)
I added headers into 2-1/2 exhaust, a RPM intake and 600 carb, upgraded the ignition to start. I went to Hughes for a spring package to allow for a better cam in which I have not bought yet. The trans is a 2400 stalled 727 with 3.55’s out back on 26-1/2 tires.

Without the cam... this is a really nice package. An excellent driver with really nice (but still modest) power.

 

[Mile Maker]

Well its been a long time since i added an update.
The phrase "Project Creep" comes to mind. My dream of low bucking this engine went out the window when i found how deep the rust was in the cylinders, and on the crank.
I used some emery cloth to clean up the crank some, But it would have needed to be ground.
I had a 360 package designed, and was more or less ordering the parts. When my parts guy and i started comparing prices of a cast crank 408 kit, to the list of parts i had.
By the time i added up a set of pistons, rods, rings, bearings, and machine work to the crank. I was nearly at the Scatt 408 kit with the cast crank, and 20.5 dish Icon pistons.
Machine work is quite expensive in Alberta.

So i ordered it up. It was going to take 3 weeks to show up. Its been 2 now.
In the mean time, i was working on some of the other things. Originally i was just going to run my J heads for a while, and update to some aftermarket heads in a while. Now with that much more displacement, I thought that the heads were really going to be restrictive.
what the hell, I have a few weeks to wait for parts.
I disassembled the heads, and did some work on the bowls, and gasket matching. I intend to have some 2.02 inlet valves installed, as well as the new springs, that come with the cam. I still went with the Comp XE268H cam. It might turn out to be a bit small, But I designed this engine to be a great daily driver. I only get to the track a couple of times a year, so it was more important to me to be a great daily. I hope to be able to ride the long, flat torque curve.

So some head work, A new Edelbrock performer RPM, and torque converter should make this a nice ride. Comp recommends a min 2000 torque in the write up for this cam. I was thinking of ordering a Hughes 24-25. The write up there says 2200-2500, and their numbers are based on a big block. Small blocks will likely be a couple of hundred RPM lower. the 408 is something in between.....
Seeing as the truck is around 3800-4000 lbs, im hoping the converter will be in the right range. I emailed them for their recommendations, but i have yet to receive an answer.
I know i could knock the weight off of the stock converter, But it was flashing for me at around 1200 RPM with that 230/242 cam. Way too low for any kind of performance.

The other make work project, while i wait for parts, was i welded some baffles in the oil pan. Its doubtful that this mild of an engine will require anything like that, But i thought i couldn't hurt anything.
Once i get my rotating group together. I will see if anything needs to be don't to fit the factory windage tray. I was thinking about cutting some windows on the one side, and fit some perforated plate in the windows, and allowing a small slot for oil to drain from. Sort of acting like a crank scraper, with a window to drain through.
I found the stamping on the block, It seems to be a factory HP engine. But i have no idea of its origins.

 

[yellow rose]

Well its been a long time since i added an update.
The phrase "Project Creep" comes to mind. My dream of low bucking this engine went out the window when i found how deep the rust was in the cylinders, and on the crank.
I used some emery cloth to clean up the crank some, But it would have needed to be ground.
I had a 360 package designed, and was more or less ordering the parts. When my parts guy and i started comparing prices of a cast crank 408 kit, to the list of parts i had.
By the time i added up a set of pistons, rods, rings, bearings, and machine work to the crank. I was nearly at the Scatt 408 kit with the cast crank, and 20.5 dish Icon pistons.
Machine work is quite expensive in Alberta.

So i ordered it up. It was going to take 3 weeks to show up. Its been 2 now.
In the mean time, i was working on some of the other things. Originally i was just going to run my J heads for a while, and update to some aftermarket heads in a while. Now with that much more displacement, I thought that the heads were really going to be restrictive.
what the hell, I have a few weeks to wait for parts.
I disassembled the heads, and did some work on the bowls, and gasket matching. I intend to have some 2.02 inlet valves installed, as well as the new springs, that come with the cam. I still went with the Comp XE268H cam. It might turn out to be a bit small, But I designed this engine to be a great daily driver. I only get to the track a couple of times a year, so it was more important to me to be a great daily. I hope to be able to ride the long, flat torque curve.

So some head work, A new Edelbrock performer RPM, and torque converter should make this a nice ride. Comp recommends a min 2000 torque in the write up for this cam. I was thinking of ordering a Hughes 24-25. The write up there says 2200-2500, and their numbers are based on a big block. Small blocks will likely be a couple of hundred RPM lower. the 408 is something in between.....
Seeing as the truck is around 3800-4000 lbs, im hoping the converter will be in the right range. I emailed them for their recommendations, but i have yet to receive an answer.
I know i could knock the weight off of the stock converter, But it was flashing for me at around 1200 RPM with that 230/242 cam. Way too low for any kind of performance.

The other make work project, while i wait for parts, was i welded some baffles in the oil pan. Its doubtful that this mild of an engine will require anything like that, But i thought i couldn't hurt anything.
Once i get my rotating group together. I will see if anything needs to be don't to fit the factory windage tray. I was thinking about cutting some windows on the one side, and fit some perforated plate in the windows, and allowing a small slot for oil to drain from. Sort of acting like a crank scraper, with a window to drain through.
I found the stamping on the block, It seems to be a factory HP engine. But i have no idea of its origins.

View attachment 1715699379

View attachment 1715699380

View attachment 1715699381

View attachment 1715699382

I would take a hard pass on that converter. Call someone like PTC and get a custom converter. The converter will make or break the whole package. Never like Hughes.

Also, not sure if that is the finished valve job, but regardless of how much grinding you’re doing, the valve job is significantly more important than that. Don’t skimp on the valve job.

 

[yellow rose]

Kindof depends on what you call a side. If you took got those numbers on the wristpin axis then yeah it could be bent.
But if you measured at 90* to the wrist pin axis, then that is just piston rock; average the numbers and you get the proper deck clearance.

Or jumped the chain.

Nice to see yur back on the case

HEEEEEEEY AJ, clear out your dang’d inbox. I tried to PM you but the inbox is OVER full.


YR

 

[AJ/FormS]

@yellow rose

done

 

[Mile Maker]

I would take a hard pass on that converter. Call someone like PTC and get a custom converter. The converter will make or break the whole package. Never like Hughes.

Also, not sure if that is the finished valve job, but regardless of how much grinding you’re doing, the valve job is significantly more important than that. Don’t skimp on the valve job.

No this is not the finished valve job.
The heads are at the machine shop now, Getting 2.02 intake valves, and exhaust valves and seats. The previous rebuilder sunk the exhaust valves quite low.
With this work, i would likely have been better to order a set of edelbrocks.

My parts order has still not arrived. I inquired about it all, and the cam i had picked out, needs to be ground by comp. However they are waiting for a shipment of cam cores. Middle of april for the cores to arrive. so..... I am looking at cams again. The supplier has a Comp magnum cam in stock. Its a 270 advertised Magnum HYD flat. 224/224 @50 similar specs to the previous comp cam i had picked out. It was a 224/230@50. Xtreme energy
The Magnum looks like it has a bit less lift, and less exh duration. but the valve events suggest it might offer a bit better fuel economy.
I sent out some feeler emails to comp, hughes, and howards asking for recommendations. Hughes already replied back, saying that there were supplier problems there too.
I may have to go with the Magnum by default. I dont think it would be a huge compromise though. I like good fuel economy, and mid range torque.
None of it matters though, until i get my stroker kit. Awaiting pistons there. Likely on the same slow boat.