Water heaters

[dukeboy440]

So after spending the day replacing yet another heating element in a now 4 yr old water heater in our current house, most of that spent draining the tank, I’m contemplating putting all tankless heaters in the house I’m designing. I’ve gone thru 3 water heaters in 9 years of being here, multiple elements. And I have pre-filtration and water softener and I’m on city water to begin with.

But I’m wondering if anyone has any experience in tankless water heaters? The house in designing will have 3 bathrooms total, one with a big tub. I figure if I can design the tankless units into the house to start with, it might be worth it depending on their life span and how well they actually function. 240V single phase will be available, planning on 300 AMP service so I should have plenty of power to supply them.

Thoughts

 

[67Dart273]

If you have some sort of chemical problem that is killing them, there is no guarantee that tankless will be better.

Every area/ water supply is a bit different. Around here the "answer" is that eventually lime/ mineral products build up in the bottom and the bottom element overheats. You are supposed to flush them periodically, but nobody does LOL

 

[Demonic]

Good advice above, as usual. Get a spare bottom drain, as they all seen to leak if they get used regularly. If you're having this problem often, just a tankless won't be any better. Something is off.

Tankless units want very clean water to last any length of time. Sometimes the city water is junk, worse than well water. Pull the anode rod, see what it looks like. You'll need a 1" socket and help, as it's hard to keep the tank still with a breaker bar and 1" socket on the anode hex. I had to hold back with a strap wrench lengthened with a tow strap once.

Maybe the usage is too high on the existing water heater, and you need a 60 gal?

 

[cudavert]

You say you have a water softener? Does it require adding salt? My son recently bought a house with a water softener (salt type) and holy *&$@ that water heater actually rusted from the inside and developed a pinhole, a year after he moved in. Although, the previous owner installed NO anode rod inside the tank.

 

[dukeboy440]

Good advice above, as usual. Get a spare bottom drain, as they all seen to leak if they get used regularly. If you're having this problem often, just a tankless won't be any better. Something is off.

Tankless units want very clean water to last any length of time. Sometimes the city water is junk, worse than well water. Pull the anode rod, see what it looks like. You'll need a 1" socket and help, as it's hard to keep the tank still with a breaker bar and 1" socket on the anode hex. I had to hold back with a strap wrench lengthened with a tow strap once.

Maybe the usage is too high on the existing water heater, and you need a 60 gal?

Unfortunately the anode rod is not serviceable on this model. But yeah, I’ve flushed it out every few months cause mineral deposits are infact what is causing the issue.

When I build the new house, it’s on a different water source in a different county so I’m hoping that will help.

Currently I have a 55 gallon.

 

[JDMopar]

No technical info here, but if you are going to be supplying hot water to 3 bathrooms via tankless heaters, you should check with your power company to see if they will add a facilities charge because they have to upgrade the transformer and facilities that serve your new house. Tankless water heaters add a lot of instant demand to a transformer and sometimes need to be replaced with a larger one to handle the load. If natural gas is available, you might want to consider that to fire the water heaters if it is cheaper. Good luck to you and congrats on the new home.

 

[dukeboy440]

You say you have a water softener? Does it require adding salt? My son recently bought a house with a water softener (salt type) and holy *&$@ that water heater actually rusted from the inside and developed a pinhole, a year after he moved in. Although, the previous owner installed NO anode rod inside the tank.

Yep it is salt type, no leaks on the tank.

 

[dukeboy440]

No technical info here, but if you are going to be supplying hot water to 3 bathrooms via tankless heaters, you should check with your power company to see if they will add a facilities charge because they have to upgrade the transformer and facilities that serve your new house. Tankless water heaters add a lot of instant demand to a transformer and sometimes need to be replaced with a larger one to handle the load. If natural gas is available, you might want to consider that to fire the water heaters if it is cheaper. Good luck to you and congrats on the new home.

Hmmm not a bad idea. We will be doing propane for heat, that’s not an idea to look into propane ones.

And no congrats yet. We’ve been trying to build for 4 years and have gotten no where. So I’m working to convince the wife to let me build it myself

 

[JDMopar]

If you aren't building in a subdivision where the power company has already established facilities, they may not even charge you extra. If they will need to build a line to you, your electrician will have the load of your entire house figured up and submitted to the power company on a load sheet. They can then size the transformer and service to your home right the first time and not have to upgrade the minimum they guessed at when building out a new subdivision.

 

[dukeboy440]

If you aren't building in a subdivision where the power company has already established facilities, they may not even charge you extra. If they will need to build a line to you, your electrician will have the load of your entire house figured up and submitted to the power company on a load sheet. They can then size the transformer and service to your home right the first time and not have to upgrade the minimum they guessed at when building out a new subdivision.

Yep. Right now, electric runs along the road, but not on the parcel. I’m in BFE

 

[B-i-n-g-o]

For water softener, I used the electronic type, so it's not putting salt in your water. Something about polarity, I don't know physics...our water did improve, as far as soapiness, not feeling as 'slick', so seems like it works.
For hot water heater, I recently replaced my traditional, rated at $746 a year at 12¢ kwh, with a hybrid (so, uses same tech as a heat pump until demand requires the elements to kick in)...rated at about $108 a year at 12¢ kwh. Can't say on durability, yet. Good luck!

 

[4spdragtop]

I know not much help, but ours is NG, and a rental. Free insurance that way when it's a rental. Well worth the $$. 2 service calls/immediate repairs in over 20 years. Cheaper fuel compared to elec.

 

[Inertia]

My son built a home in one of our barns, with propane tankless, propane fireplace, about 12 yrs ago, no drama, well water, no softener, and I had totally forgotten about the filter. No turbo, silent . Slow to get hot water .
We added an addition to the main house for my daughter and grandkids, we moved into the addition
The addition also has a propane tankless with a fkn turbo or some such, and where we mounted it, the turbo will wake you at night if used. During the day, it is noisy but acceptable for near instant hot water. 5 + yrs, no drama .
The main house is 60 gal electric, they last about 6 - 8 yrs.before springing a leak, no element probs .

 

[toolmanmike]

So after spending the day replacing yet another heating element in a now 4 yr old water heater in our current house, most of that spent draining the tank, I’m contemplating putting all tankless heaters in the house I’m designing. I’ve gone thru 3 water heaters in 9 years of being here, multiple elements. And I have pre-filtration and water softener and I’m on city water to begin with.

But I’m wondering if anyone has any experience in tankless water heaters? The house in designing will have 3 bathrooms total, one with a big tub. I figure if I can design the tankless units into the house to start with, it might be worth it depending on their life span and how well they actually function. 240V single phase will be available, planning on 300 AMP service so I should have plenty of power to supply them.

Thoughts

City water? I thought you were out on the farm?

 

[dukeboy440]

City water? I thought you were out on the farm?

We are. But about twenty years ago, the county ran “rural water” mains in our area. We tapped in about 8-9 years ago. The well lines still exist but are shut off . All the massive irrigation systems have drained the natural aquifer and pressure is barely 1/2 GPM.

It may be “rural water” but it all comes from the cities water treatment facility 9 miles away so I call it city water

 

[Demonracer]

If you have killed that many water heaters in that short of a period of time, I think I would be taking a water sample to have an analysis done on it. My thoughts are that you "city water" is killing the water heaters. Where we live, the city water has a "very" high calcium content. We have put two filter systems in before the water reaches the toilets, sinks, showers and water heater. Even with the filters there is a constant battle to get rid of it.

 

[dukeboy440]

If you have killed that many water heaters in that short of a period of time, I think I would be taking a water sample to have an analysis done on it. My thoughts are that you "city water" is killing the water heaters. Where we live, the city water has a "very" high calcium content. We have put two filter systems in before the water reaches the toilets, sinks, showers and water heater. Even with the filters there is a constant battle to get rid of it.

Thanks! That’s not a bad idea. I’ll look into that tomorrow

 

[famous bob]

So after spending the day replacing yet another heating element in a now 4 yr old water heater in our current house, most of that spent draining the tank, I’m contemplating putting all tankless heaters in the house I’m designing. I’ve gone thru 3 water heaters in 9 years of being here, multiple elements. And I have pre-filtration and water softener and I’m on city water to begin with.

But I’m wondering if anyone has any experience in tankless water heaters? The house in designing will have 3 bathrooms total, one with a big tub. I figure if I can design the tankless units into the house to start with, it might be worth it depending on their life span and how well they actually function. 240V single phase will be available, planning on 300 AMP service so I should have plenty of power to supply them.

Thoughts

I`ve probly put in hundreds over the yrs. , the biggest house I ever did , (had a bunch in it) eventually wasnt happy with them , and went back to tank type water heater.
The one lungers work for a while but all will go out in time , usually quicker than what is satiisfactory , the new gas fired tanklless , are terribly expensive , I wouldnt even consider one myself...

Is it possible that you have great amount of electralisis in your system ? Thetre is some reason your not getting any life out of them............??

 

[4spdragtop]

Local health lab may test for free. Good idea Bill.
It very well could be hardness, pH etc. Ask the lab what they all test for.
I would contact water treatment plant and see what they add to the water.
Also speak to restaurants etc in town, they will be high volume water users and would have to replace heaters as well.

If you have killed that many water heaters in that short of a period of time, I think I would be taking a water sample to have an analysis done on it. My thoughts are that you "city water" is killing the water heaters. Where we live, the city water has a "very" high calcium content. We have put two filter systems in before the water reaches the toilets, sinks, showers and water heater. Even with the filters there is a constant battle to get rid of it.

Thanks! That’s not a bad idea. I’ll look into that tomorrow

 

[dukeboy440]

I`ve probly put in hundreds over the yrs. , the biggest house I ever did , (had a bunch in it) eventually wasnt happy with them , and went back to tank type water heater.
The one lungers work for a while but all will go out in time , usually quicker than what is satiisfactory , the new gas fired tanklless , are terribly expensive , I wouldnt even consider one myself...

Is it possible that you have great amount of electralisis in your system ? Thetre is some reason you’re not getting any life out of them............??

Electralisis never heard of that

 

[Demonracer]

Electrolysis is where the ions in the water eat whatever metal it comes into contact with. That is why there is a sacrificial anode rod inside of the case, usually they last the lifetime of the heater. Unless you have highly ionized water, then they need replacing periodically.

 

[Just Ron]

Sounds like a bad ground in your wiring. Or high acidity. I sold many acid neutralizers when customers were replacing water heaters too often.

 

[dukeboy440]

Sounds like a bad ground in your wiring. Or high acidity. I sold many acid neutralizers when customers were replacing water heaters too often.

Where do I get one of those

 

[dukeboy440]

Sounds like a bad ground in your wiring. Or high acidity. I sold many acid neutralizers when customers were replacing water heaters too often.

And no, I’ve had the wiring checked by two different electricians, it’s good. The elements just blow out I think from mineral deposits.

But like I said, I don’t care much about the current problem. I want to avoid the issue in the NEW house all together. So asking about things to incorporate to reduce have a similar issue in a new house

 

[67Dart273]

Electrolysis is a very good point. That is part of the reason that heaters have a sacrificial rod. Someone mentioned "not replaceable." Many that I've seen WERE replaceable.

You MUST properly install the tank. The usual think, if the common copper flex connectors are used, is that they have ELECTRICALLY INSULATED connectors, called "dielectric fittings." These are on water tanks and your gas meter if you have nat. gas. The two pipes, hot and cold, should be bonded together and grounded. The tank should be grounded through electrical. Interestingly, the gas connection to the heater (obviously if gas or LP) IS NOT a dielectric connection at any of the gas appliances. This means the furnace, dryer, range, or any other gas/ LP appliances are all interconnected by the grounding conductor (green or bare) of the electrical system, as well as interconnected by the house gas piping, if metallic. And that includes the water heater.

When we installed gas/ LP "back then," the gas piping had to be bonded by grounding wire to the water piping and to the electrical system ground or to a ground stake. Common 8' ground stake. So even though a water tank uses dielectric fittings at the water connection, the gas piping, if used is bonded/ grounded, AND the water tank shell is grounded / boned if it is electric. Go figure??

I have never really understood the actual electrics of electrolysis in that situation.