Weird Timing issue on my 318 V8 5.2L

[68dartgtman]

Hey Guys

I had to replace the water pump and the intake gaskets on my 318 V8. The intake was plug with carbon completely - had that cleaned - started car last night and she'll burn the tires off in an instant ! My question is this:
I put the timing light on it and the line in the harmonic balancer is 2 inches below the timing plate ! When I turn the distributor to make the line come up to the "O" on the plate the engine shuts down. I have been reading on here and had a mechanic friend say that the harmonic balancer has shifted so just adjust the timing by ear. I can live with that since the engine runs so well. My question is this :
Would the shifting of the harmonic balancer in any way affect the way you position the spark plug wires in the distributor cap?
When I replaced the cap I simply put the new wires exactly where the old ones were and she ran fine - but last night I decided to make sure I had the wires in the correct position on the cap and come to find out the wires are off by two positions from Number 1 position - the car will not start now - not even trying to fire off ..........
This is why I am asking ........... could the engine have jumped time at some point in it's life?
My experience has been when a engine "jumps time" is usually will not run - but like I said - she will burn the tires off she runs so well with the plug wires in the wrong position on the distributor cap !

I have also read that I need to un-hook the vacuum advance before timing - I did not do that because I didn't know - will try that tonight after work.......
any ideas?????

 

[ScampMike]

yea - if it ain't broke.... those wires were fine right where they were - the timing is wrong (sounds like you adjusted the timing too far retarded - that would make the cap/wires look like it is in the wrong position). LA small blocks like 10-15 degrees of advance for initial timing. These things don't "jump timing" - if it was fine, then you have messed something up. Put it all back - then do some learning about timing before you make adjustments!! The harmonic balancer is held in place with a woodruff key - VERY much doubt it moved unless you installed it incorrectly. And yes, I believe you are correct, disconnect the vacuum advance before timing...

 

[73Swinger18]

Watch this video on how to find true top dead center on your balancer.
You'll need to buy/make a piston stop. https://www.summitracing.com/search...rtby=Default&sortorder=Ascending&N=4294887537
Once you verify/mark TDC on your balancer, put all the wires on the cap like this picture shows.

Turn your balancer around with the number one spark plug removed and feel for pressure build up with your finger on top of the spark plug hole to find the compression stroke. Once you are sure you are on the compression stroke, match the TDC line on your balancer to the 0 on your timing cover and adjust your distributor so that the rotor is facing the number one wire. Fire it up and adjust your timing with the vacuum line disconnected and plugged.

 

[Johnny Mac]

good read at the link below. same idea. verifying the rotor position at TDC, and then making that the #1 plug...and then setting base timing w/o the vac advance hooked up. etc
Pace Performance: How to Swap/Drop in Your New Aftermarket Distributor! And Verifying Rotor Position

(looks like 73 swinger beat me to it!)

 

[68dartgtman]

yea - if it ain't broke.... those wires were fine right where they were - the timing is wrong (sounds like you adjusted the timing too far retarded - that would make the cap/wires look like it is in the wrong position). LA small blocks like 10-15 degrees of advance for initial timing. These things don't "jump timing" - if it was fine, then you have messed something up. Put it all back - then do some learning about timing before you make adjustments!! The harmonic balancer is held in place with a woodruff key - VERY much doubt it moved unless you installed it incorrectly. And yes, I believe you are correct, disconnect the vacuum advance before timing...

Hey Swampmike - I never took off the harmonic balancer or messed with it in any way - I did not rebuild this engine - it has had head work but not by me ........... I can kill the engine just by turning the distributor in either direction far enough - I simply kept it in the "middle" of those two adjustments and "listened" to how the engine ran - once it smooths out I stopped turning the distributor and tighten it up.

 

[73Swinger18]

Hey Swampmike - I never took off the harmonic balancer or messed with it in any way - I did not rebuild this engine - it has had head work but not by me ........... I can kill the engine just by turning the distributor in either direction far enough - I simply kept it in the "middle" of those two adjustments and "listened" to how the engine ran - once it smooths out I stopped turning the distributor and tighten it up.

I would invest in a vacuum gauge and set your initial timing to achieve the highest vacuum. It may sound good in the driveway, but when you stomp on it, it may ping due to your mechanical/vacuum advance. You'll save gas and increase your performance if done properly and it will chew up your whole weekend in the process getting it "just right."

 

[68dartgtman]

I would invest in a vacuum gauge and set your initial timing to achieve the highest vacuum. It may sound good in the driveway, but when you stomp on it, it may ping due to your mechanical/vacuum advance. You'll save gas and increase your performance if done properly and it will chew up your whole weekend in the process getting it "just right."

Thanks 73Swinger18 ! I will do that - I did hear some pinging last night when I stomped down on it at one point !
thank you very much !
Mike

 

[73Swinger18]

Thanks 73Swinger18 ! I will do that - I did hear some pinging last night when I stomped down on it at one point !
thank you very much !
Mike

I just went through this myself. There are three different points of timing you need to check. INITIAL - This is the timing set at idle with vacuum disconnected/plugged. It should be set between 0-18 deg. MECHANICAL - This is checked with the vacuum still disconnected and the RPM up to 3-4K to verify how much advance the flyweights within the distributor add. It should be between 32-36 deg. VACUUM - This is checked with the vacuum connected and RPM up to 3-4K. Should be around 50-52 deg. The more initial you add, the higher the mechanical/vacuum you will end up with. I bought this FBO Systems to limit my total advance and changed the springs inside to make sure I was completely advanced before 3K. You'll need a dial timing light Xenon Advance Timing Light if you don't have one since the timing cover only shows 10 deg BTDC/ATDC. You adjust the dial on the back of the light until the balancer lines up with 0, and whatever the dial reads is your timing.

 

[gtsdude]

I think your friend was referring to the outside of the harmonic balancer moving as it is 2 pieces with rubber mounted between them. The rubber can fall apart and move only the outside portion, once you check TDC you will know if that has happened. As far as plug wires not being in the correct place, they can be any where you want them as long as your rotor points at TDC on #1 cylinder and follow the firing order from there. Most books and pics will show #1 cylinder at the front toward the driver side, like the pic posted.

 

[68dartgtman]

I think your friend was referring to the outside of the harmonic balancer moving as it is 2 pieces with rubber mounted between them. The rubber can fall apart and move only the outside portion, once you check TDC you will know if that has happened. As far as plug wires not being in the correct place, they can be any where you want them as long as your rotor points at TDC on #1 cylinder and follow the firing order from there. Most books and pics will show #1 cylinder at the front toward the driver side, like the pic posted.

Hey gtsdude -
The rotor does aim at #1 cylinder so I know that is correct - I was going by what a friend told me - on my distributor cap there is a "1" made into the cap itself but that "1" is next to the #7 port in the pic posted above......... and that's why the car won't fire now - I'm switching the wires back to the way they were so the car will run again this evening.

thanks man !

 

[yellow rose]

Hey Swampmike - I never took off the harmonic balancer or messed with it in any way - I did not rebuild this engine - it has had head work but not by me ........... I can kill the engine just by turning the distributor in either direction far enough - I simply kept it in the "middle" of those two adjustments and "listened" to how the engine ran - once it smooths out I stopped turning the distributor and tighten it up.

You can NOT time an engine, any engine by ear. That is a no no from the go go (could be a rap song in there....I claim all rights to it but I can't rap) and as suggested you need a timing light and learn how to use it.

I happened to grow up knowing one of the best Comp racers in the country. He was a FORD by but by had loads of talent so I forgave the Ford issues. Anyway, I was 15 and we stopped by his place to shoot some bulls and race the benches around. I'll never forget that day. He told me 90% of the people at a drag strip don't understand how to time an engine or use a timing light. That was 1978-79. He was absolutely correct.


Sadly, after all this time, it's still true. This ain't a rip on any one. Just stating what I've learned. Fortunately, time has passes and things like the grid and EFI have come along to help. But, if you can't grasp carb function or how and ignition system works, IDK that a computer makes it better.


Ramble off, waiting for AJ to come along and make my post more interesting.

 

[68dartgtman]

You can NOT time an engine, any engine by ear. That is a no no from the go go (could be a rap song in there....I claim all rights to it but I can't rap) and as suggested you need a timing light and learn how to use it.

I happened to grow up knowing one of the best Comp racers in the country. He was a FORD by but by had loads of talent so I forgave the Ford issues. Anyway, I was 15 and we stopped by his place to shoot some bulls and race the benches around. I'll never forget that day. He told me 90% of the people at a drag strip don't understand how to time an engine or use a timing light. That was 1978-79. He was absolutely correct.


Sadly, after all this time, it's still true. This ain't a rip on any one. Just stating what I've learned. Fortunately, time has passes and things like the grid and EFI have come along to help. But, if you can't grasp carb function or how and ignition system works, IDK that a computer makes it better.


Ramble off, waiting for AJ to come along and make my post more interesting.

I have a timing light and I DO know how to use it - I also DO know about carb functioning and the ignition system - duh - this is not my "first time at the rodeo" buddy............ the problem I am dealing with is I have no history on this engine - I have not rebuilt it - it's had head work done by a previous owner who put the carbon plugged up intake back on fresh new heads and then didn't have the intake gaskets in the right position which smashed one end of the metal gasket and I could see where they took a screw driver and tried to "move" the gasket thus putting a crimp in that gasket - That's the kind a crap I am dealing with on this car ...........
so I am dealing with an engine that had work done by someone who thought they were a "mechanic" but that person didn't know what the hell they were doing - during the restoration process on this car I have found so much Wrong with the work that someone else has done - that it makes it difficult to determine WHAT I am dealing with at times..............
I am NOT the type of person to Grasp at things I don't know - I do my research - by reading posts on this form and other forums related to this type of car and reading and understanding the freakin shop manual and talking to ASE certified mechanics ..............
so making a blanket statement like you did only serves to piss people off - so you accomplished what you intended ... good for you........... but I don't have time for that crap.

 

[yellow rose]

I have a timing light and I DO know how to use it - I also DO know about carb functioning and the ignition system - duh - this is not my "first time at the rodeo" buddy............ the problem I am dealing with is I have no history on this engine - I have not rebuilt it - it's had head work done by a previous owner who put the carbon plugged up intake back on fresh new heads and then didn't have the intake gaskets in the right position which smashed one end of the metal gasket and I could see where they took a screw driver and tried to "move" the gasket thus putting a crimp in that gasket - That's the kind a crap I am dealing with on this car ...........
so I am dealing with an engine that had work done by someone who thought they were a "mechanic" but that person didn't know what the hell they were doing - during the restoration process on this car I have found so much Wrong with the work that someone else has done - that it makes it difficult to determine WHAT I am dealing with at times..............
I am NOT the type of person to Grasp at things I don't know - I do my research - by reading posts on this form and other forums related to this type of car and reading and understanding the freakin shop manual and talking to ASE certified mechanics ..............
so making a blanket statement like you did only serves to piss people off - so you accomplished what you intended ... good for you........... but I don't have time for that crap.

Lighten up Francis. Didn't want to piss you off. YOU Said you timed YOUR engine by EAR. YOU said it.

I didn't make a blanket statement. I said I was LUCKY. I learned from the best.

What I don't like is maybe someone will read your post and THINK they can time an engine by EAR.

So I'll make sure to NEVER post anything in anything you post up.

You got what you wanted. You pissed ME off.

Grow up.

 

[340demon]

68dartgtman the way you ask the question told us that you do not know as much as you think you do and how you reacted say the same they are just trying to help you and give you more insight

 

[gtsdude]

Hey gtsdude -
The rotor does aim at #1 cylinder so I know that is correct - I was going by what a friend told me - on my distributor cap there is a "1" made into the cap itself but that "1" is next to the #7 port in the pic posted above......... and that's why the car won't fire now - I'm switching the wires back to the way they were so the car will run again this evening.

thanks man !

Sound like you got a handle on it.

 

[nm9stheham]

OP, be aware that you could have a mismatched damper and timing cover. The timing covers had the marks change sides going from 1969 to 1970 and the damper marks changed at the same time. If you have an early timing cover (marks on the passenger side) with a later damper, or later timing cover (marks over on the driver's side) with an early damper, then the timing marks are gonna be waaay off. With what you seem to be running into in general, I would not be surprised if they are mismatched. But just make new marks on the damper as instructed.

Also, if they are matched, but the outer damper ring has shifted, you REEEEALLY need to replace that right away. If this ring has moved that much (or any at all for that matter), then it may be a matter of time 'til it flies off; they often do a ton of damage when they come loose. Take a look very close look at the very thin rubber between inner and out rings; missing chunks or big cracks is a bad sign.

 

[68dartgtman]

Lighten up Francis. Didn't want to piss you off. YOU Said you timed YOUR engine by EAR. YOU said it.

I didn't make a blanket statement. I said I was LUCKY. I learned from the best.

What I don't like is maybe someone will read your post and THINK they can time an engine by EAR.

So I'll make sure to NEVER post anything in anything you post up.

You got what you wanted. You pissed ME off.

Grow up.

Good

 

[68dartgtman]

Hey Guys & especially Yellow Rose -
I am sorry that I pissed you off as that wasn't my intention - I let my anger get the best of me over the problems this car has given me - I know better than that - I know we are all here to seek advice and help each other out - my anger made me forget that - and I do apologize to everyone -
I can be a Dumbshit at times -

I just want to drive this car after all the years of work & $$$ I have put into her..............and every time I turn around, there seems to be another issue or re-occuring issues that never seem to go away.............. I need to just walk away from it for a while and calm down - but most of all - realize again that it is a 48 year old car!

thank you

 

[Rapid Robert]

Hey Guys & especially Yellow Rose -
I am sorry that I pissed you off as that wasn't my intention - I let my anger get the best of me over the problems this car has given me - I know better than that - I know we are all here to seek advice and help each other out - my anger made me forget that - and I do apologize to everyone -
I can be a Dumbshit at times -

I just want to drive this car after all the years of work & $$$ I have put into her..............and every time I turn around, there seems to be another issue or re-occuring issues that never seem to go away.............. I need to just walk away from it for a while and calm down - but most of all - realize again that it is a 48 year old car!

thank you

Hey Guys

I had to replace the water pump and the intake gaskets on my 318 V8. The intake was plug with carbon completely - had that cleaned - started car last night and she'll burn the tires off in an instant ! My question is this:
I put the timing light on it and the line in the harmonic balancer is 2 inches below the timing plate ! When I turn the distributor to make the line come up to the "O" on the plate the engine shuts down. I have been reading on here and had a mechanic friend say that the harmonic balancer has shifted so just adjust the timing by ear. I can live with that since the engine runs so well. My question is this :
Would the shifting of the harmonic balancer in any way affect the way you position the spark plug wires in the distributor cap?
When I replaced the cap I simply put the new wires exactly where the old ones were and she ran fine - but last night I decided to make sure I had the wires in the correct position on the cap and come to find out the wires are off by two positions from Number 1 position - the car will not start now - not even trying to fire off ..........
This is why I am asking ........... could the engine have jumped time at some point in it's life?
My experience has been when a engine "jumps time" is usually will not run - but like I said - she will burn the tires off she runs so well with the plug wires in the wrong position on the distributor cap !

I have also read that I need to un-hook the vacuum advance before timing - I did not do that because I didn't know - will try that tonight after work.......
any ideas?????

I would set the dampener slit to 15 BTDC #1 compression. (the rotor will be under or nearly under the #1 plug wire cap terminal). (If rotor is under the #6 plug wire, turn the dampener around 1 turn again to the 15). turn dist housing slightly till the magnet is dead even with the tooth (rotor still under that #1 plug wire). lock dist down. plug in the can (if it ain't already plugged in). fire that puppy up. EDIT actually if you are on #6 compression/rotor under #6 plug wire you are OK just by lining up the magnet with the tooth but starting at #1 does make it easier to confirm correct plug wire firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 clockwis around the cap ( On occaision I still have visual probs with 5 & 7!

 

[seabee]

I had the problem nm9stheham mentioned above with a mismatched timing cover and balancer. I bought a piston stop and timing tape and made life a lot easier going forward.