Wilwood conversion problem

Brakes for your Classic Mopar

  1. mflynn

    mflynn Well-Known Member

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    I am doing a front disc conversion using a Wilwood kit on a '68 Cuda. Ran into the following problem: the diameter of the snout on the Wilwood hub is wider than the center opening on my wheels. My wheels are rallyes, not sure what year or make they came off originally but they fit the original hub snout. Wilwood tech support has basicaly told me too bad. I have the 10" kit and Wilwood is telling me even the hub they use with the 9" kit is too big for my wheels.

    Has anyone encountered this problem? And what are my potential solutions. I guess I could get new wheels, but I like the wheels I have and I'm not looking to drop another grand on wheels and tires. I am thinking about a wheel spacer/adapter, but don't know much about them.
     
  2. 72bluNblu

    72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Your original wheels are for drums?

    The center register on those is smaller than the one's on the later disk wheels. It's a pretty common problem. The later 73+ disks had a HUGE hub, a lot of aftermarket wheels don't fit without machining.

    I had to have the center bores on the rims on my Duster opened up to clear the hubs on my Dr. Diff 13" rotors, and those are smaller than the 73+ disks. The Wilwoods have an even smaller hub than that on most of their kits.

    Since your rallye's are steel, there really isn't anything you can do to the rim. You could try using a spacer, but my guess is that you don't have a lot of room to the fender to work with if you have stock rallye's, so you may not be able to run a big enough spacer to clear the hub without having the tires hit the fenders.

    More than likely you will need new rims. Aftermarket rallye's are out there to fit the stock disks, they should clear the wilwood hubs as well. Just make sure you figure out the centerbore of the rims before you order them.
     
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    • mflynn

      mflynn Well-Known Member

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      That seems like good advice. I think you are right that the spacer would need to be about 1" thick, and that would put me out pretty wide. Found a set of E-body rallyes on Craigslist that I'm looking at tomorrow, and I'll be bringing the Wilwood hib with me to make sure it fits. Sucks to have to eat my current wheels and tires, but hopefully I'll be able to sell them off and end up breaking even. One problem I'll have is that I currently have 5 x 4.0 bolt pattern and the new rims are 5 x 4.5. The Wilwood hub allows me to put the studs in either pattern, so this might actually be a benefit down the line given how hard it is to find after market 5 x 4.0's. But it leaves me with the smaller bolt pattern on my rear wheels. so I'm thinking adapter on the back two corners - do you see any problem with running a spacer on the backs but not the fronts?

      And yes, originals are from drums.
       
    • 72bluNblu

      72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      If you can find a set of rallyes to fit the front I'd probably just leave the rears alone for now and start saving to convert them over to BBP. Dr. Diff sells the axles for $300, and you can usually get loaded BBP drums from mothermoparspokaneparts on eBay for under $100. This set is 11x2.5, when they get 10x2.5" they're usually a little cheaper. The 11x2.5's need a 15" rim, FYI.

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/11-2-5-PLATES-LOADED-MOPAR-DODGE-PLYMOUTH-8-3-4-DRUM-BRAKES-8-75-NEW-YORKER-/271819168063

      There isn't an issue with running spacer/adapters in the back and not the front, but you'll probably run into the same issue with the backspace on the rim not being enough to run that spacer and still fit the wheels inside the quarters. Of course that depends A LOT on the backspace of the rear wheels and the size of the tire you want to run. But even the cast adaptors (which I don't like, seen too many cracked) are almost 3/4" thick. You'd be far better off going with billet, those are safe when properly torqued and maintained, but those are usually 1" thick. Usually that means an extra 1" of backspace will be needed on the rims, but again, it depends on what you're starting with.

      Like I said, if it were me I would finish the front and run the 5x4" pattern out back until your funds allow you to do a proper conversion. That also has the added bonus of getting rid of the SBP drums, which are hard to find parts for, and replacing them with the BBP drums, which came on almost everything with wheels that Dodge made up until the early 90's.
       
    • jefflock

      jefflock 69 Dart 408 10.008 best pass so far

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      I'm wondering if the wheels are 14 inch. Most of those kits require you to go to 15's
       
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      • 72bluNblu

        72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        That's a good point, even the 10.75" kit recommends 15" wheels. I think they do have one that works with 14's though.

        What part # is the kit?
         
      • mflynn

        mflynn Well-Known Member

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        The kit # is 140-11023. Wilwood doesn't say you can't use 14" wheels. In fact, the wheels studs can be installed in either a 5 x 4.0 or 5 x 4.5 pattern - since you're only going to find the 5 x 4.0 pattern on 14" wheels (as far as I know), it seems like they've anticipated people are going to use this kit with 14" wheels.
         
      • mflynn

        mflynn Well-Known Member

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        I may end up leaving the SBP on the rear, but the problem for me with that is I'd like to sell my current wheels in a set of 4, in which case I'll have to go to the BBP on the rear now. The options 72bluNblu suggested seem like a less expenisve alternative to upgrading rears to discs. If I go with a spacer it will definitely be billet.
         
      • dwire67

        dwire67 Well-Known Member

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        Wilwood has two different front kits-part# 11022 -4-Piston Front Kit
        11-in Rotor Diameter
        0.81-in Rotor Width
        14-in Min Wheel Dia*
        Lug Mount Type
        Fitment: Dodge/Plymouth/Crysler

        Kit#2 Part# 2712-4-Piston Front Kit
        10.75-in Rotor Diameter
        0.35-in Rotor Width
        15-in Min Wheel Dia*
        Lug Mount Type
        Fitment: Dodge/Plymouth/Crysler
         
      • mflynn

        mflynn Well-Known Member

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        kit # 140-11022 is for 9" drum spindles. I have a numbers matching 318 - it's my understanding that all V8's came with 10" drums (the 9 " drums were only used on the /6's) plus I measured my drums and (unless I'm a total moron and measured wrong) they're 10". That's why I got the 10" kit (140-11023). But it doesn't fit my 14" wheels, and I just came up empty on a set of BBP rallyes I was hoping to get (off Craigslist) - the hub snout fit and the bolt pattern lined up, but there wasn't enough room for the caliper. My kit also comes with rotors that are .81" THK x 1.00" DIA (part # 160-5840).

        I think kit # 2712 is for a drag racing set up.
         
      • 72bluNblu

        72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        The Wilwood kit you listed shows the minimum wheel diameter as 14".

        http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdFront.aspx?itemno=140-11023

        But that being said, they always throw in the disclaimer that the number they list is the minimum, and that not all wheels of that size will fit. If I'm not mistaken folks have had issues with the Rallye's clearing before, even when other 14" rims fit.

        That kit also increases the track width by .20" already, so a spacer really isn't likely to work. Sounds to me like you're probably going to need a set of aftermarket 15" Rallye's that were intended for disk cars, and you'll want to check the center bore before you order anything.

        As far as the drums, you should measure the inside of the drum across the diameter, that will tell you what you have. I do believe there are V8 cars out there with 9" brakes, but it would have been dependent on year and model. And of course, this late in the game who knows.
         
      • 69_340_GTS

        69_340_GTS Well-Known Member

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        How about taking the wheels to a machine shop and have the center holes bored out? Anyone with a decent sized lathe , or even a milling machine could do it.
         
      • 72bluNblu

        72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        On an aluminum wheel that works great, the aluminum is thick and usually doesn't have any kind of reinforcement out at the edge. That's exactly what I did with the Enkei RPF1's on my Duster.

        But I wouldn't do it on a steel wheel. The steel rims have a rolled lip on them that adds a lot of strength, and if these are the rims I'm thinking of it would have to be completely removed to make them work. The remaining hole would have a thin edge and could be pretty flexy.
         
      • mflynn

        mflynn Well-Known Member

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        So I just ended up biting the bullet. Installed everything up, went with the 5 x 4.5 bolt pattern, and now I'm in the market for some 15" wheels. Any ideas what I need in terms of back spacing and offset, and how wide and tall can I get away with? I'm thinking 15 x 6's with 195-60 tires on the front and 205 or 215-70's on the rear (I want a forward leaning stance). Do I have enough room for these?
         

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      • BillGrissom

        BillGrissom Well-Known Member

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        Much of this doesn't make sense. The factory intended that the "hub register" fit tight to the wheel, centering the wheel via "hub-centric". Thus, all factory wheels - 13", 14", 15", ralleye, whatever should have the same-size center hole. Thus, if Wilwood states the kit is "for 10" drum" cars, the hub register should be the correct size. I can't tell from your photo which spindle you have. The 9" drum spindle is much different with a curved "goose-neck" coming in from the side (fwd or aft, I forget) when viewing the wheel. Regardless, I don't know that the hub register varied between 9" & 10" drums. If you lookup drums on rockauto (Centric gives dimensions), that would tell you. I would raise heck w/ Wilwood after spending such money. See if "I'm returning your $750 kit" motivates them. Even if thru a distributor, they would have to eat it.

        You can still run with wheels centered by the studs (lug-centric), assuming you can get it over the register. You also don't have to give up on SBP wheels. One company makes nice alloy wheels in SPB for ~$170 ea and has posted here.
         
      • ChrisPerry

        ChrisPerry Well-Known Member

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        Is there enough meat on the spindle to allow you to turn it down for the correct register for the stock wheels? Seems I read somewhere that someone else did that.
         
      • 72bluNblu

        72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        But they don't. The center register is not the same on SBP drum cars and BBP disk cars. Both the 9" and 10" SBP front drums have a hub register of 2.31", the later BBP disk cars have a hub register of 2.80". Even more ironic, the BBP drum cars, like the B/E bodies, use a 2.80" register. So once again, SBP A-body brakes are the odd man out. To make it REALLY strange, the KH SBP disks list a register of 2.9". But that's just the center hole on the rotor, I don't know what the register dimension actually is on the hub for those. If it's larger than 2.3", then that means there are different SBP wheels for front drum and front disk cars. #-o

        As far as Wilwood is concerned, they should tell you that you're going to need new wheels if you order a kit for SBP 10" drum spindles and their hubs have a register that's larger than 2.3". With most of factory wheels it's not a problem, since you can't mix and match wheels with different register sizes because they're also different bolt patterns (except maybe the SBP KH disk wheels). But since the Wilwood hubs also offer the 5x4" bolt pattern, you'd think they'd come with a hub register that would fit the existing SBP drum wheels.

        It's not the spindle you're turning down, its the outer hub register. On a the later factory rotors, '73+, with the one piece hub/rotors, I would say yes within reason. There's a lot of metal there. People have definitely done that for aftermarket rims.

        But with an aluminum Wilwood hub I would be a lot less inclined to turn down the outer dimension of the hub. They're already tapered. And of course Wilwood would walk away from any warranty at that point.
         
      • BillGrissom

        BillGrissom Well-Known Member

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        Sorry, I meant to say,
        "Thus, all factory wheels - 13", 14", 15", ralleye, whatever that came on a 10" drum car should have the same-size center hole".
        Sounds like 9" drum wheels also interchange, but SBP disk cars had different wheels.

        Anyway, we all agree that Wilwood should step up and take responsibility. Sounds like their attitude is "you figure out what works". People don't pay big money for that attitude. Scarebird seems a bit clearer, though not everbody (me) is sure what their slang like "poverty rims" means. All these companies should go the extra mile and offer a user feedback page where owners can relate their experiences, like "my vintage Cragar wheels fit fine" or "I had to do ___ to fit wheels", and such. That would help everybody trying to use their product and thus help them. No charge for the free management consulting.
         
      • ChrisPerry

        ChrisPerry Well-Known Member

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        I actually did mean hub not spindle.
        Didn't realize it would have to lose nearly half an inch in diameter to clear,
        thats a little excessive.
         
      • mflynn

        mflynn Well-Known Member

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        Thanks for all the feedback gentlemen. Bottom line is: (1) Wilwood's specs/advertising stuff was at best misleading; (2) Wilwood was not sympathetic; (3) I'm not going to try to turn down the Wilwood hub snout; (4) I can tell you 100% that the 14" wheels I have do not fit the Wilwood hub - period - the center hole is simply too small in diameter; (5) this is particularly maddening since (as 72bluNblu noted, the Wilwood hub comes with stud holes for both a 5 x 4 and 5 x 4.5 bolt pattern); (6) I'm probably better off anyway with 15" rims and 5 x 4.5 bolt pattern; (7) I am going to take it up with Wilwood at some point, but I'm going to keep the kit and go get some new wheels (in the market now for Cragars or black Torque Thrusts). The toughest pill to swallow will be new tires - didn't want to take on that expense given what I already have.

        That all having been said, I am now looking to sell my original wheel/tire set. So here's what I've got (photos below): fronts are Fuzion HRI 195/60R14's, rears are Goodyear Eagle ST 235/60R14, all 4 wheels are 14 x 6 SBP blacked out rallyes with beauty rings (driver condition), rears have acorn style center caps, fronts have snout style, all 4 have 3 5/8" backspacing, and I think 1 15/16 offset (difficult to figure out). I also have 2 extra Fuzions currently mounted on spare rims (same size) - one of the extra wheels is mangled, the other in good condition. Anyone in the market? Any ideas on price I should be asking?
         

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      • mflynn

        mflynn Well-Known Member

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        fronts
         

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      • mflynn

        mflynn Well-Known Member

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        rears
         

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      • dozer556

        dozer556 Not old school. Just old.

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        Stockers, maybe. But Wheel Vintiques, Cragar, American Racing, Centerline, Coys, E-T Wheels and US Mags all make 15" wheels in 5x4. I've got a set of 15" Ansen Sprints on my Barracuda with the SBP.
         
      • ntsqd

        ntsqd Well-Known Member

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        It's been years since I was involved with those hubs, but I rather doubt it. I converted all of the hub p/n's in their inventory from castings to forgings. Some clearly could be made smaller on the register, but there was no point because that would have made them non-stock.

        As to hub-centric vs. lug-centric; I don't see any real advantage in hub-centric. Maybe, MAYBE, if I were regularly going 200 MPH there might be a difference. At the sub 100 mph velocities that I'm bound to it's not important.

        Wilwood's position at the time was that there are too many different wheels out there, stock and aftermarket, to try to make the hubs fit them all. They strived to make the hubs as close to the OE shape as was possible. I doubt that's changed. As posted in this thread there are stock wheels that don't fit stock hubs. I don't see how wilwood could correct that. As to their telling you this fits and that doesn't fit, they did in a way. They publish a drawing with the important dims. They don't know the dims of your wheels - it's simply not possible to keep track of all of the relevant dims of all of the wheels that could ever likely be used on any of their products. They give you the dims that you need to be able to decide if your wheels will fit. The idea that performance improving parts should bolt-on like they're OEM and work with everything else that isn't OEM that happens to be on the car is a bit preposterous. All of the aftermarket part mfg's strive for it as best they can, but they know it's never going to happen 100% of the time. They're lucky to get 10%
         
      • 72bluNblu

        72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        The problem is they DON'T give the relevant dimensions, and they say that their kit will fit a 14" rim. Sure, some of them maybe, but since the kit is made for a drum brake car you would think they could bother to say the stock drum wheels won't fit over the register. It's not a kit for KH disk car, or a 73+ disk car, it's a kit for a car with a 10" drum spindle, and the 14" stock drum wheels won't fit. Nowhere on the dimension drawing is the diameter of the hub register. Bearing diameters, measurements for the caliper clearance, oil seals, blah blah blah, all on there. They even give the height of the hub register, but not it's diameter.

        Here's the dimension drawing for that kit
        http://www.wilwood.com/Images/BrakeKits/WCD_Drawings/WCD_dwg-Large/ds759_wcd-lg.jpg

        And here's the spec page for that hub...
        http://www.wilwood.com/Hubs/HubProd.aspx?itemno=270-11539

        But, unless I totally missed it (which I admit is possible) the actual diameter of the hub isn't on there. I've managed to find it on some of the kits Wilwood offers, like this one http://www.wilwood.com/Images/BrakeKits/WCD_Drawings/WCD_dwg-Large/ds659_wcd-lg.jpg, but not all of them. And not this one in particular. I've looked at more than a few kits, and since I run aftermarket rims I always try and find that information. Especially since a lot of aftermarket rims need to be modified to clear the gigantic hubs that the stock 73+ mopar rotors have.

        As far as hubcentric goes, it would be nice, but that's not going to happen on an aftermarket brake kit. Or aftermarket rims for that matter. Best you can usually do if you're worried about it is a set of hubcentric spacers. But it's kind of moot if the wheel doesn't even fit over the hub.

        All reasons why I have a Dr. Diff 13" rotor kit. Because I can call Cass and not only will he tell me the exact dimensions of the hubs that his rotors use, he can even tell me how much I can turn them down if I need to in order to clear a set of rims. I'm pretty sure the Wilwood answer to that question is "that would void your warranty".
         
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