WTF 727 troubles--EDIT may be fixed

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67Dart273

67Dart273

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Whut?? did I do?

67 dart, 77 mild 360 and 727 out of van, has been running OK

Has been slow to "pickup" in gear first time in reverse first time starting, Ok after that. No evident leaks under car I thought it was converter "bleed down." I'll admit I haven't checked fluid........

Left it parked last two days, today would not move, finally got it moving around back. Added TWO QUARTS of fluid, had no idea it was that low. Shifted OK two days ago when I drove it.

Now it's twitchy going into gear, and would not go into high on highway. RPM oscillates up and down ??? kind of "surges" like it's going to shift then goes back to second?

I've got a manual body I've been going to install, but have had other things going on
 
I "roughed" it and went for a short test drive. That's what I reported above, poor shifting. It's been sitting now for a couple hours, and while it is not "hot" IT IS CLEAR OFF THE DIPSTICK again!!

There is no huge trail of oil under car, nor was there a "blue cloud" on the short 1-2 mile run on the freeway.

Jeez, what's goin on here?
 
should be checked while running in neutral and full hot. You won't get a blue could from a transmission as it is a sealed unit. Make sure you're pulling the correct dipstick.
 
oil has to be going somewhere , if it is leaking it will be all over the bumper and trunk lid , and underside of car .
The fluid clear red ? No strange smell or anti-freeze in it ? Check rad make sure the 2 are not mixing
 
OwdKasd said:
You won't get a blue could from a transmission as it is a sealed unit. Make sure you're pulling the correct dipstick.
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By blue I meant leaking from the trans and blowing onto the hot exhaust. Jeez I've been around long enough to know one dipstick from another.

But to humor you, the "thing up front" is above the add mark and is dark brown. The doo-dad by the firewall is red, pink, after I added fluid. It's the one you burn the f*** out of your fingers by the headers.

The bottom of the car is showing "the usual drips." It was parked two days after I brought it home last, a few drips on the ground, certainly not enough to dry the dipstick.

I've got a project going, so can't get it on the hoist for a bit. The thing that's weird is that even though (it must have been) low on fluid, it was shifting OK when I brought it home

First thing I checked was antifreeze and dipstick color. Both look OK.
 
I would suggest changing the filter - a trans low on fluid or error in kickdown adjustment could skid the clutches enough to plug the filter.

My 727 did this. I would take it out. It would back out of the driveway fine. I would drive around matting it or take it to the track and put the mickeys on it. Car would shift and run just fine. Bring it home & park it.

The next time I try to drive it, it would act low on fluid. When I put it in R, and tried to back out of the garage, i'd have to rev the crap out of it, like it had a 5,000 stall converter. On the road, it would hang in low gear, and finally shift with a bang. It would seem to float in and out of 1, 2 3 gears at light cruise.

I think my trans was not up the hp, and during a hard day it was chewing up the clutches. With the fluid stirred up, and the fluid hot, the pump was still getting fed. When it was shut down, the crud would pile up under the filter. On start up, the fluid was thick, and all the gunk would get sucked right into the filter and plug it up. Then it starves the pumps, and the clutchs skid even more.

Changing the fluid and filter always worked until I flogged it on slicks again. This was maddening because at the same time I also had engine oil dripping out of the trans inspection cover, and thought it was ATF. I always changed the engine & trans oil at the same time so it took forever to figure it out.
 
(Repeats) antifreeze is fine

I guess I'll have to wait for the hoist to clear. I've got a manual body I've been meaning to install, so....... and I've already got a filter kit.
 
67Dart273 said:
By blue I meant leaking from the trans and blowing onto the hot exhaust. Jeez I've been around long enough to know one dipstick from another.

But to humor you, the "thing up front" is above the add mark and is dark brown. The doo-dad by the firewall is red, pink, after I added fluid. It's the one you burn the f*** out of your fingers by the headers.

The bottom of the car is showing "the usual drips." It was parked two days after I brought it home last, a few drips on the ground, certainly not enough to dry the dipstick.

I've got a project going, so can't get it on the hoist for a bit. The thing that's weird is that even though (it must have been) low on fluid, it was shifting OK when I brought it home

First thing I checked was antifreeze and dipstick color. Both look OK.
Click to expand...
Sorry, You just scared me with the whole blue smoke thing and the fact that you let it get 3 quarts low. After dealing with someone pouring a gallon of antifreeze in their washer bottle last week, I don't assume anything anymore.
 
Any other ideas? I'm building a carport, had to move some junk, and cannot get the car on the hoist for a day or two. I sure didn't want to dig into a transmission this late in the season. I'd hoped to just have a little drivin' fun before winter sets back in here.
 
ditto on trans filter. My old Suburban started hunting for gears pretty bad, in and out, catch and release (hey, it was a chevy) then it just didnt want to move. all it was was a thoroughly plugged filter, probably had the same one in since new and that had 210,000 miles on it.
 
mebbe so, Pishta, but that doesn't explain where FOUR quarts!! of fluid went

(put two in, it's down again!!)

Well, at this point, I'll just wait 'til I get it up on the hoist. Who knows, maybe the rear seal fell out.
 
Slow to engage into gear (excluding converter drain back) is generally worn rear clutch discs, bad seals, bad reaction shaft seals, or VB problem. Not shifting into high is generally a front clutch issue or reaction shaft seals and since the front clutch is used for reverse it's affected too. The likelihood of both clutch packs or both sets of reaction shaft seals going at once is rare so I'd be inclined to think it has a VB problem such as a broken main pressure reg. spring or trash in the regulator. I'd do a pressure test and see what they look like.
 
fishy68 said:
Slow to engage into gear (excluding converter drain back) is generally worn rear clutch discs, bad seals, bad reaction shaft seals, or VB problem. Not shifting into high is generally a front clutch issue or reaction shaft seals and since the front clutch is used for reverse it's affected too. The likelihood of both clutch packs or both sets of reaction shaft seals going at once is rare so I'd be inclined to think it has a VB problem such as a broken main pressure reg. spring or trash in the regulator. I'd do a pressure test and see what they look like.
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Thanks for the input. As I mentioned, I have a supposedly OK manual body, I was thinking of putting that in, anyway

BUT HOW do you explain the coincidental huge loss of fluid?

ya, I know, get under the car.......
 
67Dart273 said:
Thanks for the input. As I mentioned, I have a supposedly OK manual body, I was thinking of putting that in, anyway

BUT HOW do you explain the coincidental huge loss of fluid?

ya, I know, get under the car.......
Click to expand...

Yep. That's the only way to find out. Losing that much that quick has to be a whopper of a leak. I once saw a cooler line cracked right on the bottom spraying the ground as the guy drove. Didn't get hardly any on the car but of course you could tell everywhere he drove.
 
OK, finally got 'er on the hoist THE FRONT 4 BOLTS fell out?? of the pan. Somehow it managed to lose a bunch of fluid without getting on the exhaust or even making that much of a mess on the bottom.

So that was the leak.

I guess the other troubles were a combo of low fluid/ aeration

I got busy and installed a used Cheetah manual body I bought, so questions?

Any way to soften the BRUTAL 1-2 shift?

With the 389 gears, I MAY just elect to start mostly in 2nd for "driving."

Next, there is a FRACTION of a second of 2-3 flare. Not even a quarter second, I'd judge, just enough to tell that it's "trying" to rev between 2-3. Shift seems nice and solid.

Last question is (and the destructions SAY this) there IS NO compression braking in first

Does the mean that the "first gear burnout" situation is a no no?
 
67Dart273 said:
OK, finally got 'er on the hoist THE FRONT 4 BOLTS fell out?? of the pan. Somehow it managed to lose a bunch of fluid without getting on the exhaust or even making that much of a mess on the bottom.

So that was the leak.

That's amazing it didn't drown the whole under carriage. You got lucky you didn't have a mess to clean up.
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I guess the other troubles were a combo of low fluid/ aeration

I got busy and installed a used Cheetah manual body I bought, so questions?

Any way to soften the BRUTAL 1-2 shift?

What ratio front band lever do you have in it and does it have the spring under the accumulator? I'm not positive if the spring will even do any good with the cheetah VB but I know taking the spring out and blocking the accumulator on a stock VB makes the 1-2 shift firmer. Might be worth a try installing a spring. I asked about the lever because the higher the ratio the firmer the shift. I believe Cheetah VB's call for a 3.8 lever.
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.

With the 389 gears, I MAY just elect to start mostly in 2nd for "driving."

Next, there is a FRACTION of a second of 2-3 flare. Not even a quarter second, I'd judge, just enough to tell that it's "trying" to rev between 2-3. Shift seems nice and solid.

Did your trans. have a shift improver kit in it to begin with? If so was there a restrictor driven into the case that feeds the front clutch? If so removing it will allow the front clutch to apply quicker.
Click to expand...
Last question is (and the destructions SAY this) there IS NO compression braking in first

Does the mean that the "first gear burnout" situation is a no no?
Click to expand...

Correct. No low gear burnouts.
 
fishy68 said:
What ratio front band lever do you have in it and does it have the spring under the accumulator? I'm not positive if the spring will even do any good with the cheetah VB but I know taking the spring out and blocking the accumulator on a stock VB makes the 1-2 shift firmer. Might be worth a try installing a spring. I asked about the lever because the higher the ratio the firmer the shift. I believe Cheetah VB's call for a 3.8 lever..
Click to expand...

The destructions from Cheetah must have been old (used body) They said nothing about what ratio arm, and I don't know what's in it (yet). They DID say to remove the spring, but it was NOT there

fishy68 said:
Did your trans. have a shift improver kit in it to begin with? If so was there a restrictor driven into the case that feeds the front clutch? If so removing it will allow the front clutch to apply quicker.
Click to expand...

Don't know the trans history. It and the engine came out of a junk van for 350 bucks. It DID have a Torker 340 intake, which I removed, and AFB, so "somebody" did something to it

I have the ATSG and also Munroe's book on the TF, I'll see what I can learn about that restricter. Sounds like I'll be into it again


fishy68 said:
Correct. No low gear burnouts.
Click to expand...

(Say in voice of Darth Vader) "OhhDAMN"

After I posted this question, I went to the destructions page at Cheetah, and found their cautions on the subject.

Well I'll have to read up and be careful. I do have "some shifters" long story, and will probably be installing one or two of 'em if the weather holds

Thanks for your input. TF's are new to me, I was always a 'stick' man, but now my arthritis and other old injuries prevent my left leg from operating heavy clutches. So I've determined to become an "automatic guy."
 
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