69 Valiant caster adjustment

-

408STRKR

MrMopar
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
46
Reaction score
8
Location
Toronto
Hey guys, 69 valiant lowered. The car when I got it had ssbc front brakes with small bj. The wheels sit far back in the wheel well so it looks weird. Too much gap from tire to fender in front area. So I bought tubular adjustable control arms from rms and adjusted caster way forward and it still looks like I need to move the wheel somehow forward more In the wheel well.

Any thoughts?
 
What are the current alignment specs?

I would be more concerned that the alignment numbers were in spec. If they are, and the wheels appear to be located improperly, I wouldn't sacrifice the alignment to change the visual position of the wheels with repect to the body. That's a different problem entirely.
 
Define "adjusting the caster forward" please. If you are adjusting the upper control arm pivot point at the upper joint forward, you are probably going the wrong way.
 
I am currently not driving the car, on the control arm if I adjust the rear adjuster out the caliper moves to the front of the car. Also I adjusted the front adjuster bolt on the frame upwards which brought the caliper forward towards the front as well. I really don't get it. Lol
 
Adjusting the upper ball joint to the rear of the car increases caster, which is generally what Mopars need.

Do you have a way to measure caster? Without a measuring device of some type, there's no way to know how much caster you have, or don't have.
 
Are you kidding me? I've been doing it wrong this whole time?? Lol frig. So the caliper has to move to the rear of the car when adjusting??
 
The upper ball joint is your reference and yes, it moves to the rear. Generally, if everything is in good shape and nothing is bent, it will be fairly close with caster and camber if you adjust the rear cam on each side so the control arm is all the way in and the front cam on each side so the control arm is all the way out. This shifts the upper ball joint out and back as far as possible. Then take it to the alignment shop after you get the toe close enough to drive..
 
Ok guys I adjusted the upper ball joint towards the back of the car this time and it made the wheel and tire even worse. Definetly moving the ball joint towards the front of the car is the way to go. Is there such thing as an offset spindle for drag racing which sits the tire back further?
 
Ok guys I adjusted the upper ball joint towards the back of the car this time and it made the wheel and tire even worse. Definetly moving the ball joint towards the front of the car is the way to go. Is there such thing as an offset spindle for drag racing which sits the tire back further?

Do you have any pictures for reference?

Moving the ball joint toward the front of the car and tipping the spindle toward the front will hammer your caster adjustment, the spindles are supposed to be tilted back toward the rear of the car for the correct caster adjustment.

What do your strut rod bushings look like? Only thing I can think is that if the strut rod bushings are worn out, or incorrect, or the strut rods are somehow damaged they may be letting the LCA's drift back too far.
 
Ok guys I adjusted the upper ball joint towards the back of the car this time and it made the wheel and tire even worse. Definetly moving the ball joint towards the front of the car is the way to go. Is there such thing as an offset spindle for drag racing which sits the tire back further?

No it's not the way to go. What I told you is correct. If you are attempting to do an alignment without being on an alignment machine, there is your first mistake.

The position for the control arm I gave is a starting point. Once you put the control arms there, you must adjust the toe to get it close, then drive the car to an alignment shop. They will end up moving the cam bolts, I imagine, but you have to start somewhere. You cannot use the way the tire "looks" in the wheelwell as a means of measurement.
 
One possibility I thought of. You should make sure the upper control arms are on the correct side. That might cause the problem you are experiencing. Without pictures, we are really in the dark.
 
A bicycle HAS pos. caster,,

Those front wheels on a shopping cart that "wobble" have negative caster,, and if you set your car up with negative caster.. (top ball joint forward),, your front wheels are gonna wanna do what those shopping cart wheels do.....

hope it helps
 
If you lowered the car, both ends, and expect to drive that way, you are going to have to re-engineer the front end completely.
- Chrysler engineered the front end to operate at a certain ride height +/- about 2 inches, for suspension travel.
- As you lower the car, the upper control arm moves up and back, carrying the top BJ with it. This moves the wheel back in the wheel opening. Of course all the operating angles go for a dump.
-You cant drive it like this.Camber change, bump steer SAI, ackerman, anti-dive, everything is wrong, and will put you in the weeds plenty quick.Or worse you will hit something or someone.
-Since you dont seem too savvy about any of this, re-engineering that front end is probably beyond your ability.Heck its beyond almost everybodys ability.I strongly urge you to put the ride height back to where it belongs, before somebody gets hurt or killed.
-To properly lower the car would require drop-spindles. I have never come accross those for A-bodies.Even with those it wouldnt be 100%.
-If youre really after the lowered look, you might try an after-market complete front replacement assembly. Youre looking at something like $4000 or $5000 or more, installed.
 
:worthles:
:worthles:
:worthles:
:worthles:
:worthless
::worthles:

Making adjustment to or aligning the front end is not something you can just eyeball. You need some way of ACURATELY measuring it.
 
Ok I get everything you guys are saying. The car originally came like this before I bought it. I was told it had drop spindles. How can I post a pic on here?
 
If you lowered the car, both ends, and expect to drive that way, you are going to have to re-engineer the front end completely.
- Chrysler engineered the front end to operate at a certain ride height +/- about 2 inches, for suspension travel.
- As you lower the car, the upper control arm moves up and back, carrying the top BJ with it. This moves the wheel back in the wheel opening. Of course all the operating angles go for a dump.
-You cant drive it like this.Camber change, bump steer SAI, ackerman, anti-dive, everything is wrong, and will put you in the weeds plenty quick.Or worse you will hit something or someone.
-Since you dont seem too savvy about any of this, re-engineering that front end is probably beyond your ability.Heck its beyond almost everybodys ability.I strongly urge you to put the ride height back to where it belongs, before somebody gets hurt or killed.
-To properly lower the car would require drop-spindles. I have never come accross those for A-bodies.Even with those it wouldnt be 100%.
-If youre really after the lowered look, you might try an after-market complete front replacement assembly. Youre looking at something like $4000 or $5000 or more, installed.

This is not correct. Almost any of it.

I've lowered all of my cars over 2" from stock. I actually raised my Challenger back up slightly because it was too low to clear speed bumps. It's still lowered at least 2" from stock.

The factory torsion bar suspension DOES allow this much height variation. It does require higher spring rates to adjust for the decrease in suspension travel, but that's pretty easy with the selection of aftermarket torsion bars now available. A drop in ride height corresponds to a loss of suspension travel, and compensation with a higher spring rate is needed to keep from bottoming the suspension.

Some cars will require offset bushings to regain the proper alignment specs if they're lowered that much. Or tubular UCA's, all of which have additional caster built in.

They do make 2" drop spindles for A-bodies. All of the platforms (A/B/E/F/M/J/R) use almost identical spindle geometry. C-bodies were the only one's with their own spindles, and some years aren't actually that different. The difference in the FMJ spindles is minor, and usually beneficial (do not listen to ehrenberg on that point, he's wrong). Regardless, drop spindles are WORSE for suspension geometry than just lowering the car with the torsion bars. I ran them on my Challenger for a couple years. I removed them, lowered the same amount, and was still able to achieve the proper alignment. No issues. I put over 10k miles a year on my Challenger like that. Drop spindles increase bump steer slightly, and you lose the roll center improvement when lowering the car with drop spindles compared to with the torsion bars.

In fact, lowering these cars actually improves a lot of the suspension geometry. Roll center improves dramatically, as does bump steer. Especially if the suspension is lowered to the point that the UCA's and LCA's are parallel with the ground. Anti-dive on these cars is overkill from the factory, especially if you've done the right thing and increased the diameter of your torsion bars when lowering the car. Camber change is ideal when the UCA and LCA are parallel to the ground. Literally, almost as perfect as you can make it if you were going to design a suspension. Lowering the car also has the added benefit of adding negative camber on these cars, which is helpful for modern alignment specs. Ideally, if you're on radials you should toss the factory specs in the trash and use something like -.5* camber, +3* caster (or more for power steering), and about 1/16" to 1/8" toe. The factory specs are for bias ply's, and are a disaster for radials.

The OP does need to get an alignment and see where he's at, and we really need to see a picture of this wheel location to decide if something is wrong.
 
Ok I get everything you guys are saying. The car originally came like this before I bought it. I was told it had drop spindles. How can I post a pic on here?

The drop spindles aren't going to cause problems like that, even if your car has them. Also, lowering the car in general doesn't move the tires back in the wheel wells. If it did, I wouldn't have still needed to trim the front corners of my fenders on my Duster/Demon. It's lowered a good 2".

Here's the thread on how to post pictures.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=3540
 
Here are some pics of my caster problem.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    38 KB · Views: 388
If the upper control arms are marked, make sure you have them on the correct sides. They look like they probably are but it doesn't hurt to check.

How are the upper control arms adjusted? You may not have the adjustable arms set up correctly. Not all cars are the same, and you can move everything pretty significantly one direction or the other by adjusting the length of the heim joints in the arms themselves. If the arms are adjusted improperly, you won't be able to get the right alignment numbers using the caster bolts.

What are your alignment specs? If you don't know, you will have to take it to an alignment shop and find out. The location of the wheels does look too far back, but the alignment being correct is more important. The alignment has to be set BEFORE you worry about where the wheels are. The alignment is what matters.
 
Ok as far as the control arms are concerned they are labeled left and right and I double checked that they are on the correct sides. Before I changed the control arms the car sat like that and was a drag car. The uca are set with the hiem joints on the back side close to firewall threaded out 19 threads on each side pushing the balljoint towards the front of the car and also the rear camber bolt al the way out and the front one about half way in to control camber but may have to be adjusted again. If i put the hiem joints adjust the opposite and the front cam bolt all the way out and rear all the way in then the car looks even worse off:(. Please help.. Could the wrong spindles be in the car? I don't see a cast number on them.
 
The way I see it, you have 2 problems; no1 is perception. And no2 is hearing. Everything you need to know was said by post #9.
-You just cannot move that top BJ anywhere you please.
-From the factory,it has a very narrow operating window between -1 and +2 or so degrees of caster.With the offset bushings getting you up to 3.5 degrees or so.This is not very much in terms of distance; maybe .5 to .75 inch from plumb.Now with your new arms its possible to move it more, but you cannot make it operate there without major other modifications, which can only be determined through alignment procedures.
- If you want to see that wheel move to the front, you have about 4 choices; A) move the fender back, or B) move the entire front steering system forward, or C) engineer your own system, or D)install a pre-engineered system.There are other choices, even more bizarre. Realistically, you have zero choices. Oh and dont forget that when you finally do get that wheel moved forward, you will probably need to trim a goodly amount of the bottom 5 inches off the front bottom corners of the fender openings, so that you can actually steer the car; which is why the wheels are back there in the first place.
 
-
Back
Top