Speedmaster, Edelbrock, ProMax head question for you guys

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pittsburghracer

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A good friend of mine and Mopar head porting guru and I were having a little discussion as we do several times a week. Now I’d like to see what you guys think. Say you sent your heads to be ported and the guy doing the work showed you these flow numbers. Same head but two different 2.055 intake valves. The first head had spectacular lower lift numbers but at .600 it was done and started backing up. The second set of numbers petered out like most of these heads do because there’s limited volume area to remove. Which head would you go with and why?

AB8C07E2-3C72-4B2D-A0F3-4DF4C5255A31.jpeg
 
Unless this is a trick question, the Liberty would be my choice. Why? The time spent at the lower lifts far exceeds that at the highest lifts and thus much more "area under the curve." Low lift flow is good in that it starts the air column moving so the higher lifts dynamically will be helped too.

(Oh, and my cams don't go past .575 lift anyway!!)
 
Not enough info to really know for sure....what intake? rpm target? cam specs? compression? Back cuts? Port speed at .400-.500-.600 lift?
exhaust?
Really need to know everything about THAT particular engine...I've seen fast ports work, and not work...and I've seen slower ports work...and NOT work!
The iron heads we used to sell were so fast you would swear they would not work...I'm talking stupid fast air speeds. And they made power...sometimes more than we anticipated.
 
A good friend of mine and Mopar head porting guru and I were having a little discussion as we do several times a week. Now I’d like to see what you guys think. Say you sent your heads to be ported and the guy doing the work showed you these flow numbers. Same head but two different 2.055 intake valves. The first head had spectacular lower lift numbers but at .600 it was done and started backing up. The second set of numbers petered out like most of these heads do because there’s limited volume area to remove. Which head would you go with and why?

View attachment 1716140883
Depends on the cam but likely the first
 
Give me the left (liberty) .... The cam spends more of it's lift on the ramps than at the top. Go faster with a little less lift :)
 
Liberty on the left. Good usable RPM for a street/strip application in that RPM range with the right choice of components.
 
It’s the same port, just tested with two different valves?

I’d have to check my notes, but I think I did that same test on some ported X heads, with the opposite results.

Edit- Found my notes…….
The Liberty valve was better than a Ferrea 6000 thru .450 lift.
After .450 and up the Ferrea was better.
The difference between the two on this head was nowhere near as much what you’re seeing.

Peak differences:
Liberty up by [email protected]
Ferrea up by [email protected]
 
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It’s the same port, just tested with two different valves?

I’d have to check my notes, but I think I did that same test on some ported X heads, with the opposite results.


Same port on a set of Speedmaster heads.
 
A good friend of mine and Mopar head porting guru and I were having a little discussion as we do several times a week. Now I’d like to see what you guys think. Say you sent your heads to be ported and the guy doing the work showed you these flow numbers. Same head but two different 2.055 intake valves. The first head had spectacular lower lift numbers but at .600 it was done and started backing up. The second set of numbers petered out like most of these heads do because there’s limited volume area to remove. Which head would you go with and why?

View attachment 1716140883

Just based on flow I would pick the head and valve combo in the first column. But what do I know?
 
Not enough info to really know for sure....what intake? rpm target? cam specs? compression? Back cuts? Port speed at .400-.500-.600 lift?
exhaust?
Really need to know everything about THAT particular engine...I've seen fast ports work, and not work...and I've seen slower ports work...and NOT work!
The iron heads we used to sell were so fast you would swear they would not work...I'm talking stupid fast air speeds. And they made power...sometimes more than we anticipated.


In this build it with have a .640 lift cam. So I look at that as being around .610-.620. Exhaust is over 200 with airspeed which is what I aim for over 325fps with a peak of 345-350.


Intake I’m pretty sure he’s going to have me port a Victor340 which could help the .650-.700 lift number to hold on better.
 
Which head would you go with and why?

View attachment 1716140883

The Liberty valve for me is the no brainer for sure for the following reasons;

These are street replacement HP head and even when ported, they’re limited in port volume and area. While, yes it is true you can lay down some really good time slips, they’re still used largely in part on street or street strip vehicles rather than race only cars for the reasons listed above.

2; Getting a cam above .600 lift is normally a race cam lift. Getting a higher lift is easy enough, true, but coupled with a more street duration isn’t as easy. .600 is enough lift coupled with the flow numbers to produce a really good mean machine in the street or a good track only car. This is the focus of the head at its best.

The Liberty valve produces a better fatter curve. IMO, it will our power the Ferra valves head in the applications the head is best suited for and most, if not 99% of the camshafts available on the shelf where most people purchase instead of a custom grind.

While you yourself have a quick car with these heads, your more so the exception to the rule and not what most people do.
The chances of myself getting a cam to take advantage of what I would call extreme lifts normally associated with Chryslers is pretty much not going to happen.

I would normally say that if I’m going to have a race car only and the cylinder head has its peak flow above .600, it’s not going to be a knock off head but a superior head to start with over the ported version of what is shown, or close to it. The W9 & Victor heads come to mind for the ability to have a higher ceiling for port flow.

Now I know there can be a lot of hub bub smack talk on what other people do with other and often a lesser cylinder head like a OEM 308 or 302. I don’t care to go that route myself. I know what can be and have seen what is done and it’s how they get there that doesn’t do it for me in a street or street strip ride.
Race only is a different story.
 
Now taking note of what others have said on the Ferra valves head, I can see where this maybe or serious I treat to the racer. I’m thinking a roller cam that just hangs the valve open for a while and gets it there really fast. This is like my own W5&2 heads. Low lift isn’t all that but up top, it’s moving air.
 
For sure flow testing with a 2.08 Liberty valve will be done down the road. Curiosity is going to force me to try them especially since I have them sitting here.
 
My first thought would Liberty but I've heard Eric Weingartner say cause how a head reacts on a running engine compared to flow bench that a stable port to 1" is preferred, even while running lower lift cams, don't know if that's true or not, might be a reason for the Ferra.
 
Well, witch ever one is chosen one thing for sure its gonna haul ***. As usual, Nice work John.
 
I’ll just echo a missing members words because they’re so true, flow numbers ain’t everything.

Remember the question at hand. Based on the numbers, which head would you choose and why or what for?

OU812’s post opens up a can of worms that is note worthy because of the expanse of probability being a crazy number of combinations through the various end users.

How the head actually flows on a running engine can vary greatly depending on the equipment and usage. The intake and exhaust track camshaft and the kind of use the engine is being built/used for cam make what looks great on paper not work so well in the actual settings it was designed for.

Brian’s second half of his post about how his older iron cylinder heads flowed and what they did on the dyno is a testament. It’s not always so cut and dry, black and white.
 
My vote, FWIW:
Street stroker, 235-245 hydraulic roller on the left. Mild converter.

265-275 solid roller, stock stroke on the right. More gears, converter and compression…lighter bracket type deal

Both can swing 550+, but where they do it in the rpm band will look quite a bit different
 
Even with a 700 lift cam I'd still go with the liberty. Cam will spend a hell of a lot more time at .600 and less than above .600.
 
Even with a 700 lift cam I'd still go with the liberty. Cam will spend a hell of a lot more time at .600 and less than above .600.

I think I’m in agreement and I’ll tell you why. Back around 2008-2010 I ported a set of Edelbrock heads for a very good friend they were a set of damaged 340 style open chamber Edelbrock heads. He asked me to go with a 2.08 valve in them so after I repaired the damage I did. I knew 1/3 of what I know now. I did them for him and his intake of choice was a ported LD340 I did for him. 1.5 years later I bought them back and did more work. Those heads dropped off at higher lifts too so I ported a Super Victor to run with them. That intake calmed the head down enough to flow 318cfm with it on. That same set of heads are now running a best of 5.98@113mph with a Victor340 intake. If an intake helps even just a little bit @.650 with these low lift numbers these heads would be killer. They blew my target 200 [email protected] out of the water.
 
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At first glance I would have to side with the Liberty valved example. After a bit of consideration I was about to post without reading any further. I'm glad I did and I was glad to see Brian H. chime in. I agree wholeheartedly with Brian's statement. Basically you will never come to a solid conclusion unless you try it and try it well in both configurations. Here's an idea--@pittsburghracer--Since you don't believe in dyno's,<(Probably create more questions and skepticism than answers)

Why don't you make a serious effort in strip testing this with both sets of intake valves and change nothing else. I for one would absolutely love to see this happen. It sure would be quite the test. It wouldn't be that costly and would probably be about the same work as testing converters or something along those lines. J.Rob
 
At first glance I would have to side with the Liberty valved example. After a bit of consideration I was about to post without reading any further. I'm glad I did and I was glad to see Brian H. chime in. I agree wholeheartedly with Brian's statement. Basically you will never come to a solid conclusion unless you try it and try it well in both configurations. Here's an idea--@pittsburghracer--Since you don't believe in dyno's,<(Probably create more questions and skepticism than answers)

Why don't you make a serious effort in strip testing this with both sets of intake valves and change nothing else. I for one would absolutely love to see this happen. It sure would be quite the test. It wouldn't be that costly and would probably be about the same work as testing converters or something along those lines. J.Rob


That’s not going to happen. He lives in Louisiana and I live in Pa. Shipping and insurance to get these to him is past crazy. The only savior was I bought these during the 40% off sale so he paid nothing to get them to me. He’s going from a cast iron head to these so I think he will be satisfied. @red440 bought these set up for a 2.02 valve and talking to him he really wanted a 2.055 valve. Well I did these with my stock of heads to raise money for three big money races in August. So I asked him to send money for valves and around 800.00-1000.00 so I had racing funds. I race during the summer and the extra work would take me awhile and he was cool with that as he didn’t need them right now. Well he sent me the total amount and said he loves that I race and he’s not in a hurry. His words were go race. He sent me shipping money and these should have been on their way to him. Until this happened. This was my first set with a Liberty valve and after 6-7 flow tests and trying different things was about going crazy as i pretty much beat that backing up issue so common on these heads. Then I tried the Ferrea valve yesterday. Boom high number back, low fantastic numbers disappeared. This job had me pulling what little hair I have left out. It beat me up. I’m so thankful this was a job I was doing for Red because most guys would be blowing up my phone. So we talked yesterday and he likes the Victory valve numbers. Once again he said take your time. I have another set of Edelbrock heads and LD340 to do then that’s it no more summer work. With 90 degree days, racing, yard work, household work, shopping, and an illness here and there I just can’t do it.
 
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