Oil pressure question...I promise it's not another "who likes what' thread!

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beanhead

beanhead

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Just got my 440/505" on the road. Broke the cam in with Comp 15w-50, changed oil & filter after cam run-in, refilled with the same grade oil, and put a few hundred miles on it. I wanted to get some new oil in it, so I went one step thinner and dumped in some 10w-40. Hot pressures with the 15w-50 were 25-30 psi at idle and up around 60 after about 2500 RPM. Now, with the 10-40 I'm making 20 psi max at idle and 55 thereafter. Seems a little lower than I'd like to see on the gauge, but the engine 'seems' happier. A little quieter up front and smoother, and the gauge needle is much steadier. Bigger difference appears to be at idle--I'm at 950-1000/neutral and 850 in gear (auto trans). By the way, it be hot here...
It's in your basic fun street car, lots of zipping around town miles and sitting in traffic. Famoso T&T night eeevery once in awhile. Main feed passages were enlarged to 9/32". Mains came in at .003" rods are .028". Clevite 'H'-series bearings from the 440source kit. EDM lifters on a solid cam, 250 @ .050" with .555" lift, not super crazy. Running a high-volume pump. Mancini/Harland rocker arms (no bearings on the shafts) and a B3 kit on the top end, plenty of oil up top every time I've pulled the covers. All of these factors together seem to be contributing to the pressure readings, which is fine, "it is what it is"..
So, okay to run with the 10-40? Or go back to the heavier stuff?
Thanks
 
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If it's a stock volume and pressure pump that's plenty of oil pressure. Nevermind. I missed it's a high volume pump. I'm not sure the EMD lifters might be knocking it down a little. Still seems low for a high volume pump.
 
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When I was concerned about a low oil pressure reading on a factory gauge, I found this stuff online:

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Personally I think those numbers are fine you have a high VOLUME not a High PRESSURE pump. I get nervous when it is 10PSI at idle when hot. Just my .02
 
beanhead said:
Just got my 440/505" on the road. Broke the cam in with Comp 15w-50, changed oil & filter after cam run-in, refilled with the same grade oil, and put a few hundred miles on it. I wanted to get some new oil in it, so I went one step thinner and dumped in some 10w-40. Hot pressures with the 15w-50 were 25-30 psi at idle and up around 60 after about 2500 RPM. Now, with the 10-40 I'm making 20 psi max at idle and 55 thereafter. Seems a little lower than I'd like to see on the gauge, but the engine 'seems' happier. A little quieter up front and smoother, and the gauge needle is much steadier. Bigger difference appears to be at idle--I'm at 950-1000/neutral and 850 in gear (auto trans). By the way, it be hot here...
It's in your basic fun street car, lots of zipping around town miles and sitting in traffic. Famoso T&T night eeevery once in awhile. Main feed passages were enlarged to 9/32". Mains came in at .003" rods are .028". Clevite 'H'-series bearings from the 440source kit. EDM lifters on a solid cam, 250 @ .050" with .555" lift, not super crazy. Running a high-volume pump. Mancini/Harland rocker arms (no bearings on the shafts) and a B3 kit on the top end, plenty of oil up top every time I've pulled the covers. All of these factors together seem to be contributing to the pressure readings, which is fine, "it is what it is"..
So, okay to run with the 10-40? Or go back to the heavier stuff?
Thanks
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I`d say run it . mine is a little lower than that , due to full time oiling of the valve train , around 10ish yrs now .
 
halifaxhops said:
Personally I think those numbers are fine you have a high VOLUME not a High PRESSURE pump. I get nervous when it is 10PSI at idle when hot. Just my .02
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While that's true and somebody always brings it up to argue the point, with a higher volume in the same space, pressure always goes up. A high volume pump always has more pressure than a standard volume, whether it's high pressure or not.
 
beanhead said:
Just got my 440/505" on the road. Broke the cam in with Comp 15w-50, changed oil & filter after cam run-in, refilled with the same grade oil, and put a few hundred miles on it. I wanted to get some new oil in it, so I went one step thinner and dumped in some 10w-40. Hot pressures with the 15w-50 were 25-30 psi at idle and up around 60 after about 2500 RPM. Now, with the 10-40 I'm making 20 psi max at idle and 55 thereafter. Seems a little lower than I'd like to see on the gauge, but the engine 'seems' happier. A little quieter up front and smoother, and the gauge needle is much steadier. Bigger difference appears to be at idle--I'm at 950-1000/neutral and 850 in gear (auto trans). By the way, it be hot here...
It's in your basic fun street car, lots of zipping around town miles and sitting in traffic. Famoso T&T night eeevery once in awhile. Main feed passages were enlarged to 9/32". Mains came in at .003" rods are .028". Clevite 'H'-series bearings from the 440source kit. EDM lifters on a solid cam, 250 @ .050" with .555" lift, not super crazy. Running a high-volume pump. Mancini/Harland rocker arms (no bearings on the shafts) and a B3 kit on the top end, plenty of oil up top every time I've pulled the covers. All of these factors together seem to be contributing to the pressure readings, which is fine, "it is what it is"..
So, okay to run with the 10-40? Or go back to the heavier stuff?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Two things you didn't mention. Oil filter type . That should be WIX or NAPA Gold. Another is converter stall. To low of a converter for a built motor will wipe the thrust bearing at idle in gear. While under pressure the converter is always pushing on the crank. The higher the stall the less the pressure. Exactly why you should never sit at a redlight for long periods with the clutch depressed on a stick car. Diaphragm clutches are easier on the thrust bearing.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
Two things you didn't mention. Oil filter type . That should be WIX or NAPA Gold. Another is converter stall. To low of a converter for a built motor will wipe the thrust bearing at idle in gear. While under pressure the converter is always pushing on the crank. The higher the stall the less the pressure. Exactly why you should never sit at a redlight for long periods with the clutch depressed on a stick car. Diaphragm clutches are easier on the thrust bearing.
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Wix filters. PTC 9.5" converter..when I ordered it I remember Kenny saying "somewhere up around a 3500 with that setup".
yellow rose said:
That’s some pretty wide clearances for modern oils.

I’d look for a good 5w50 100% synthetic oil.
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Yeah the thoughts of going to a synthetic did cross my mind, that stuff doesn't have as much a variance from cold to hot if I'm remembering..cold idle was up over 30.
 
PRH said:
I’d be running the HR 15/50 synthetic.

Btw...... have you whomped on it pretty good yet??
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I'm not completely against using a 50-grade the engine just seems to like the 40 a little better. That could very well be in my head though..
And, yep! Not tire-smoking fishtail launches up to max rpm, but rolling off the line and flooring it up through the gears. From a stomp in 3rd gear at 40 mph the tach gets to about 5200 in the blink of an eye and then starts to slow, though the car keeps pulling. I did the 'keep it easy' break-in on my last two 440s and they had less-than-stellar ring seal. The last engine pushed the dipstick up 3" and blew oil out the breather when I hammered it good; this time, I've not shown it much mercy and it's rewarded me with no hints of oil misting, dipstick stays home..
 
yellow rose said:
This is a very good oil for the money. For the OP, with those clearances I wouldn’t be afraid to run a 50 grade oil.
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I like the Driven stuff too, that's what's in there now. I did find a synthetic 5w-50 that you mentioned it was Schaeffer's and had the extra zinc for my flat-smackit cam.
 
5w is 5 weight, 10w is 10 weight, 20w is 20 weight in cold temperature. The oil does not thicken . It just protects to the number as 20-30-40-50. 5w is good for a fresh start up. Increase the weight the more miles it gets. My motor new cold would peg the gauge with 5 weight. Then go to around 50- 60 when hot. After some years I was running 50 weight race oil. Seen some pretty high RPMs above 9000. for 6 years. Bearings were like new. rings were waisted. Rear of the thrust bearing was wore but not bad. The worst thing in the motor was the intake push rods were gulled. They were oil through junk. I now went to good thin heavy wall solid balls from smith bro's. I always oiled through the rockers . so the oil through push rods were not for me.

Indexing and running a ball mill up the stud for the head is necessary.

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Should be a fun engine on the street Beanhead! I wouldn't machine a groove in my 440 head studs however, that is a small block mod and the big blocks have a dedicated passageway from the #4 cam bearing right to the rocker shaft saddle. If you do have a small block and want to ensure restriction free oil to the rockers, you can simply grind a small groove in the head bolt clearance hole between the linking the two oil holes. I use a longer carbide Christmas tree burr. Now there's no indexing of the head stud and no machining of your expensive new ARPs.
Back to your original problem, don't be afraid to shim the spring on the oil pump with a small washer if you want to increase pressure. The spring preload affects the amount of oil bypassing the pump. A little tinkering and you may be able to set your pressure exactly where you would like it.:thumbsup:
 
fishmarket said:
Should be a fun engine on the street Beanhead! I wouldn't machine a groove in my 440 head studs however, that is a small block mod and the big blocks have a dedicated passageway from the #4 cam bearing right to the rocker shaft saddle. If you do have a small block and want to ensure restriction free oil to the rockers, you can simply grind a small groove in the head bolt clearance hole between the linking the two oil holes. I use a longer carbide Christmas tree burr. Now there's no indexing of the head stud and no machining of your expensive new ARPs.
Back to your original problem, don't be afraid to shim the spring on the oil pump with a small washer if you want to increase pressure. The spring preload affects the amount of oil bypassing the pump. A little tinkering and you may be able to set your pressure exactly where you would like it.:thumbsup:
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If I want to smell bad I'll eat beans and get some nutrition . If I just want a bad smell I'll go to the fishmarket and get nothing at all.
 
...and if I wanted to appear as a confused oldman I'd start talking about head studs on a 440 oil pressure discussion...
:lol:
 
Okay, aside from the 'funtime with screen names show' does anyone believe it's better to wait until more miles are on before going synthetic? I remember an old builder telling me 'not before 5000 miles' but that's been years..
And thanks fish but the relief spring only controls the ceiling, my issue is with the floor so-to-speak. I'm not getting into bypass with the 10-40, the 15-50 was actually bringing 5 more psi up top which, I don't think was opening the valve either. It *should* (there's that word again) be a 72-psi spring.
 
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beanhead said:
Okay, aside from the 'funtime with screen names show' does anyone believe it's better to wait until more miles are on before going synthetic? I remember an old builder telling me 'not before 5000 miles' but that's been years..
And thanks fish but the relief spring only controls the ceiling, my issue is with the floor so-to-speak. I'm not getting into bypass with the 10-40, the 15-50 was actually bringing 5 more psi up top which, I don't think was opening the valve either. It *should* (there's that word again) be a 72-psi spring.
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The floor is controlled by the pump volume, the ceiling is controlled by the relief spring. Sounds to me like you are on the edge of having too many leaks for a HV pump to keep up with. You can increase the pressure by using a heavier oil, but that doesn't actually provide more lubrication for the engine. It just makes the pressure on the gauge higher since the same pump is now trying harder to push the heavy stuff thru the engine.

With a positive displacement pump like on a Mopar engine the volume of oil pumped is fixed. So at 900 rpm idle speed you are pumping X gph regardless of oil weight. The pressure on the gauge is a resistance to flow so higher pressure at the same RPM doesn't mean more flow or better lubrication. In fact, higher pressure from a heavier oil could result in less lubrication in critical areas in cold weather. Shouldn't be a problem with your type of car though.

You might be okay as is. If you want to run a thin oil and push more of it thru the engine then you'll need an even higher volume pump such as the Milodon pump.
 
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If it really bothers you, you could add the high pressure spring to your pump. That would help the pressure.
 
a standard pump with a high pressure spring is really all that's needed.
I'd stick some VR1 20/50 in it .
 
AndyF said:
The floor is controlled by the pump volume, the ceiling is controlled by the relief spring. Sounds to me like you are on the edge of having too many leaks for a HV pump to keep up with. You can increase the pressure by using a heavier oil, but that doesn't actually provide more lubrication for the engine. It just makes the pressure on the gauge higher since the same pump is now trying harder to push the heavy stuff thru the engine.

You might be okay as is. If you want to run a thin oil and push more of it thru the engine then you'll need a higher volume pump such as the Milodon pump.
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Thank you Andy that's what I thought (feared!) too, running near the limit for the M63HV pump on a 'bleeder'....I will likely just go back to a 50 grade but I may try a 5w so I at least get better lubrication at start-up.
 
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