318 LA Rotor position and TDC questions

Oh LAWD

Basically you need the rotor near TDC on the compression stroke and the distributor positioned in a way so you have room to make adjustments to the timing without the vacuum can hitting anything.

Hi Guys,
Finished building my plug wires, filled transmission fluid, engine oil and water......My first problem: Water is seeping out from the bottom of my front intake gasket at a pretty good rate. Used a very small amount of gasket adhesive to hold the gasket in place as I installed the intake. The edelbrock intake never really seemed to press itself into the gasket as I tightened it, but it fit well. Now I guess that I have to undo all of my top end stuff and re-seal the intake...Bummer! Question is, should I go ahead and use a new cork gasket with some RTV underneath it? Maybe forgo the gasket altogether and use Straight RTV (seems like a big space to just goop silicone into). I don't want to take this apart again. What do you guys think?

First thing is make sure either the little studs across the front and back are removed, or that the intake has the matching holes to accomodate them. Other than that, pre-check fit with dry gaskets on the sides. Maybe the heads, and or intake was milled EG if you have a used intake, and it was milled to fit heads, it might not fit yours well. Many of us do NOT use the cork end gaskets..........lay a thick bead of RTV across the front and rear, and immediately after you get the intake snugged down, run your finger/ towel etc across there to "form" it. Also look CAREFULLY under the edge of the intake across the front, as some Ed manifolds have a ?? gap ?? there that does not seal with RTV unless you nudge it into place

If the roll-pins (studs) are not the source of your woes, no amount of sealer in the corners is gonna solve all your problems. If it leaks water, then it will also suck oil and air out of the valley, and into the intake runners.
When you get the intake off,study the imprint on the gaskets, and you will see the story.

And if you have any sign of coolant in the valley under the intake, you're gonna have to at least drain the oil and change it.... maybe a couple of times to get the coolant out of the oil. Does not matter if you don't want to do it again...... you can ruin you new engine if you don't take care of this 100%.

Has the engine even been started yet? If not, the OP needs to stop and get some help.

We have some very good members over in Idaho who I'd bet money if they were asked they'd come over and lend a hand. If I wasn't 7 hours away I'd do it.

Get some help before things start going backwards.

Hi Guys,
Thanks for your input, I have not yet tried to start the engine. I want to be sure that my T's are crossed before I do that. I have been careful and thoughtful about this entire process....I have never done anything like this before, so I don't know what I don't know. Any help is very much appreciated.
Jeff

And no one wants to be the bearer of bad news, but sometimes you gotta back up and re-do stuff. It happens to everybody, new and verteran. With the coolant leaking at that point, it can go inside the engine as well as outside.

BTW, were the intake gaskets metal types or composition types?

The intake gaskets came from a complete Fel-Pro kit. I remember the intake gaskets were metal.

Ah..... I'd like others to chime in and comment but IIRC the concensus is that you should not use metal intake gaskets with aluminum intakes due to sealing issues like this. Felpro has a composition gasket set for this engine. Maybe someone has that Felpro PN off the top of their heads.....

BTW, I am coming up with Felpro PN MS90109, listed for both the 318 and the larger ported heads like on 360's; available from a lot of places. There may be a better set out there that others know of.

JeffreyLee said:

I don't want to take this apart again. What do you guys think?

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sadly you haint gotz a choiz, intake will have to come off to do it right, and right is the only way to do it. Felpro are good. Aftermarket intakes typically don't have the pin reliefs so the pins on the front and back of the intake runs on the block will have to be removed. Also, many people will tell you not to use the front and rear gaskets in the kit, you need to pre-measure the gap and fill it with RTV.. a 3/4" "China wall" of RTV from one side to the other on the back and the front.

I'm not afraid of taking anything on this car apart, because I already paid the "learning curve" price. I'll be fine taking the intake (and throttle linkage) off the car and doing things differently. Just want to get it right this time so I can start this mother up! It's been 2 1/2 years and the finish line is in sight!

nm9stheham said:

BTW, I am coming up with Felpro PN MS90109, listed for both the 318 and the larger ported heads like on 360's; available from a lot of places. There may be a better set out there that others know of.

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yea thats the one

I don't like Mopar metal intake gaskets.......either on iron OR aluminum intakes.

BTW, OP, were your heads milled? If so, how much?

I Picked up a pair of 318 heads because my car originally had 273 heads and intake on top of my 318 block. With the upgraded EB intake, I needed 318 heads to match up for fittment. Long story short, I don't think the heads were milled, but I don't know for sure.

Lots of good advice here. Take a deep breath, do some reading on here, TONS of info on timing, TDC and startup. Rushing it may cause a catastrophe.
For future reference, both dots on cam and crank gear need to be at 12 oclock for #1 tdc.
Good luck

4spdragtop said:

Lots of good advice here. Take a deep breath, do some reading on here, TONS of info on timing, TDC and startup. Rushing it may cause a catastrophe.
For future reference, both dots on cam and crank gear need to be at 12 oclock for #1 tdc.
Good luck

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Good to know, I set up my timing chain at 12:00 crank and 6:00 cam TDC on #1 cylinder. Opinions flying around everywhere and terminology that I am learning as I go. I guess that I should totally re-think what I thought I had figured out and do the finger test on #1 to get the correct starting point for the new distributor. I really thought that the dots needed to be at 6 and 12....this has been fun, but frustrating. ****!

The terminology "dot to dot" is used quite often. That means cam at 6 crank at 12, which you have done. This puts #6 at TDC compression, not #1.
#6 coincidentally is 1/2 way thru firing order(1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2)
Rotate the crank another revolution(360*), and you have now put the dot on cam at 12 and crank at 12. This is now #1 TDC compression and coincidentally at the beginning of the firing order.
2 crank turns=1 cam turn and 1 distributor turn.
Hope this helps make sense of **** lol.
Good luck!
Ask away!

JeffreyLee said:

Good to know, I set up my timing chain at 12:00 crank and 6:00 cam TDC on #1 cylinder. Opinions flying around everywhere and terminology that I am learning as I go. I guess that I should totally re-think what I thought I had figured out and do the finger test on #1 to get the correct starting point for the new distributor. I really thought that the dots needed to be at 6 and 12....this has been fun, but frustrating. ****!

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Well, they certainly can be set at 6 and 12.... that is standard and perfectly fine to do. The mistake is thinking that #1 is ready to fire there..... not true. It is #6 ready to fire in that situation. #1 would be ready to fire one full turn of the crankshaft later and the dots would then be at 12 and 12. After another full crank rotation, the dots would be at 6 and 12 again and #6 ready to fire.... and on and on. Tis is because #1 and #6 move up and down in tandem and reach TDC exactly together at all times, and they 'take turns' firing on each crank rotation.

Once you moved the crank, you have to get it back to 0 on the ignition timing marks and determine if you are at #1 or #6 ready to fire. I do that by removing the left valve cover and looking at the #1 intake and exhaust valves while moving the crank back and forth a bit. If both #1 valves move as you turn the crank back and forth around the 0 timing mark, then #6 is ready to fire. If the #1 valves are not moving at all, then #1 is ready to fire.

OK on the milling....just asking as that can effect the intake seating properly. We'll just have to run with the assumption they were not milled for now.

It may be best for you to do a search and read several threads on intake gasketing and sealing. It has been discussed and described ad nauseum here.

Jeffry, stop sweating the timing, and stop sweating the cam. In fact just don't worry about it. Let's talk "simple."

"Let's say" you put the cam in correctly, that is, crank dot at 12 o'clock and cam sprocket at 6 o'clock. Let's say that cam turned out to be "optimum" there for performance. (Google "degree a cam")

"Let's say" you just closed your eyes and threw the distributor gear in there. It landed any old way.

"Let's say" you just closed your eyes and threw the distributor in there. It will only fit one of two ways, "you don't care" which

NOW we'll set the timing.

There are TWO ways to determine the no1 compression stroke. Pull the no1 plug, "rig" a way to bump the starter and stick your thumb in the no1 hole. Just a screwdriver or pliers across the starter relay is all you need.

One way, if either valve covers are removed, is to wrench the engine up to TDC. Now look at the no1 and no6 valves. One pair will be about equally open, the other pair will be shut. Whichever pair is shut is ready to fire

The way likely most used is.................

Bump the engine, feel the compression push your finger out, go around an extra cycle if you aren't sure.

AS SOON AS YOU start to feel pressure on your finger, look at the timing marks which will be shortly "coming up" towards TDC. DO NOT set the marks at TDC. Rather, stop (wrenching) the engine when the timing marks "come up" on the desired initial timing. For bone stock, maybe 8-10 BTDC. For a mild cam like a stock 340, maybe 10-12 BTDC and for a wilder grind, more, like 15 as much as 20BTC.

SO NOW you are on the no1 compression stroke, and have the marks set at desired initial timing.

Now rotate the dist. body until the vacuum advance has plenty of room to move. If you have breaker points, figure a way to monitor points open / closed, test light, ohmmeter, dwell meter with resistance scale whatever.

If you have breakerless, move dist. retarded (CW) and then advanced (CCW) until the pickup coil core and the reluctor are centered. You can get that closer with practice, I won't complicate that

If you have breaker points, rotate CW to close points, and rotate back CCW carefully until points open. That is the spark event. Snug down the dist. a little, so you can still turn it.

The distributor rotor will be pointing "somewhere."

Now determine which cap tower the rotor is "coming to" going CW. THAT IS WHERE YOU STICK the no1 plug wire, and connect the others in proper firing order going CW around the cap.

Also, you can check the timing "on the starter." (Thanks to Crackedback, I used to do this and had forgotten a few years ago." Just hook up your light, and with the ignition on, crank the engine and quick as you can, look to see if the timing marks are "close."

DO NOT GET carried away with this, as you can damage a new cam/ lifters with a whole bunch of cranking

"Let's say" you run into trouble." "Let's say" you checked the timing with a light, the marks are correct, and it just won't run. MAYBE THE TIMING MARKS are incorrect, or MAYBE the cam is installed wrong, or (rare) we had one guy on here ended up with a reverse grind cam (marine.). And then there's stuff like pushrods holding valves open, whatever. You can run a compression check for that

TIMING MARKS: If you have parts off 'differing' engines, you might run into the trap where you have an timing cover / balancer mis-match. Ma changed all this from the pass side to the driver's side around ?? 70?? OR MAYBE the used dampener you are using SLIPPED the rubber ring

HOW TO CHECK

Buy or build a piston stop. I still have mine I built in the SEVENTIES



Disconnect the battery for safety, remove no1 plug, and make sure the piston is "down a ways." Get a socket to fit the crank bolt, and install the stop. Carefully rotate the engine (either direction) until it stops as the piston is hitting the device. Accurately make a temporary mark, onto the balancer, under the TDC mark on the timing plate.

Rotate the engine the other direction, until it stops, do the same thing. This will result in two temporary marks, and true TDC will be halfway in between, and if the factory mark is correct, that is where it will be.

Sometimes it is easier to check them by rotating the engine so the marks are on the bottom of thecar. Then crawl under, with rule or dividers, and determine "the middle"