10% Ethanol will not start……no fire??

[aengineguy]

I have had my Dart running for 10 years has never had a problem except for starting after setting for a couple of months. Specs….408, aluminum heads, 10.6 cr, Mallory hyfire, cell in the trunk, hi volume electric pump going to a bypass regulator under the hood, bypass line back to the cell. 850 quick fuel with electric choke. Had the same exact issue with a quick fuel 750 without choke. I run only 93 octane but all of the 93 around here has 10% ethanol in it. It will not fire a lick without squirting fresh 93 down the throat, then it will fire on the first cylinder hit. Once running for a few seconds, no issue and the beast is loose. I would assume that the fuel in the cell is getting a little stirred by the bypassed fuel going back in the tank and swirling a little. I have a Yamaha 1300 FJR that I have not fired in 8 month with 87 octane, with ethanol, and it fires right up. Both are in a heated garage. Someone just told me, and it makes sense, that when gas with ethanol sets, the ethanol will sink to the bottom and cause the starting issues. Anyone heard of this or any thoughts?

 

[abdywgn]

ethanol attracts water(?), so that would make sense.

 

[Bad Sport]

I run only 93 octane but all of the 93 around here has 10% ethanol in it.

Are you absolutely sure about that? "They" gave the go ahead to up it to 15%, my daughter has been experiencing issue with her car since they went to 15%.

 

[dartindanno]

Are you absolutely sure about that? "They" gave the go ahead to up it to 15%, my daughter has been experiencing issue with her car since they went to 15%.

There is another option at the pump in Illinois/Wisconsin, it's E-15 or 15% ethanol. Cheaper than the regular 10% swill but as you said, it comes with it's issues

 

[Syleng1]

Just spitballing but it may not be the ethanol but the effect of ethanol. It’s bad stuff.

 

[abdywgn]

just looked it up, gasoline floats on water...makes sense if it absorbs moisture that the float bowls will have water in the bottom of them. wait till you hit the secondaries! maybe get the float bowls with the plugs for jet changes and drain them after every use.

 

[dartindanno]

I have had my Dart running for 10 years has never had a problem except for starting after setting for a couple of months. Specs….408, aluminum heads, 10.6 cr, Mallory hyfire, cell in the trunk, hi volume electric pump going to a bypass regulator under the hood, bypass line back to the cell. 850 quick fuel with electric choke. Had the same exact issue with a quick fuel 750 without choke. I run only 93 octane but all of the 93 around here has 10% ethanol in it. It will not fire a lick without squirting fresh 93 down the throat, then it will fire on the first cylinder hit. Once running for a few seconds, no issue and the beast is loose. I would assume that the fuel in the cell is getting a little stirred by the bypassed fuel going back in the tank and swirling a little. I have a Yamaha 1300 FJR that I have not fired in 8 month with 87 octane, with ethanol, and it fires right up. Both are in a heated garage. Someone just told me, and it makes sense, that when gas with ethanol sets, the ethanol will sink to the bottom and cause the starting issues. Anyone heard of this or any thoughts?

2 months is enough for our ethanol gas to turn to junk. I would siphon the old gas out, add fresh fuel and throw some Sea Foam in it

 

[Bad Sport]

Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline - Enertech Labs

 

[aengineguy]

Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline - Enertech Labs

Interesting!

 

[Bad Sport]

Interesting!

There is also process to remove ethanol from our gas.

 

[413]

Get it out of there and put in some ethanol free fuel.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I can't say as I agree with you guys.
My 367 has NEVER, since 1999, run anything but 87E10, and it turns 93 in the Eighth, so is no slouch.
Yes after a week or so, the E10 has turned thicker and the car doesn't like to start right up (no choke), but it's a double pumper so, I just fill the intake with that swill and away it goes.
To combat that, I always mix in some stabilizer at every fill-up. I found a place under my hood to store about 500mls of stabilized gas in a sealed container. If I have trouble, I just dribble a lil into the intake. The gas in the tank with stabilizer in it, runs just fine.
Honestly, IDK what all the hullabaloo is about.

Well I suppose, having up to 185psi CCP (cranking cylinder pressure) might have something to do with it......

If I had to guess, I'd say your Transfer-slot exposure under the primary throttles, may be lacking. Crank up the idle-speed and see what happens. If it works, and if the warmed-up idle-speed is too high, retard the Idle-Timing to slow it down.

 

[Johnny Mac]

I think you fellas may be over thinking it. Ethanol evaporates quickly....also corrosive. The longer it sits, the emptier/drier/gummier things get. There are numerous fuel additives out there that fight this, from Lucas, VP, etc. Thats if you don't have access to ethanol free fuel. Around me, 91-93 doesn't have the 10% rule, and they also sell a 90 ethanol free.

I switched to e85 2 years ago. Nasty ****, but it's $2 alternative for a 13:1 engine that should really be on 116. Have to start/run the car every 10 days. Have to get it to 170 degrees to combust well, have to shut it off at 200 to avoid condensation / milk.

Welcome to ethanol!

 

[toolmanmike]

I have had my Dart running for 10 years has never had a problem except for starting after setting for a couple of months. Specs….408, aluminum heads, 10.6 cr, Mallory hyfire, cell in the trunk, hi volume electric pump going to a bypass regulator under the hood, bypass line back to the cell. 850 quick fuel with electric choke. Had the same exact issue with a quick fuel 750 without choke. I run only 93 octane but all of the 93 around here has 10% ethanol in it. It will not fire a lick without squirting fresh 93 down the throat, then it will fire on the first cylinder hit. Once running for a few seconds, no issue and the beast is loose. I would assume that the fuel in the cell is getting a little stirred by the bypassed fuel going back in the tank and swirling a little. I have a Yamaha 1300 FJR that I have not fired in 8 month with 87 octane, with ethanol, and it fires right up. Both are in a heated garage. Someone just told me, and it makes sense, that when gas with ethanol sets, the ethanol will sink to the bottom and cause the starting issues. Anyone heard of this or any thoughts?

Does it have spark? Did you prime the carb with fresh gas?

 

[Johnny Mac]

I have had my Dart running for 10 years has never had a problem except for starting after setting for a couple of months. Specs….408, aluminum heads, 10.6 cr, Mallory hyfire, cell in the trunk, hi volume electric pump going to a bypass regulator under the hood, bypass line back to the cell. 850 quick fuel with electric choke. Had the same exact issue with a quick fuel 750 without choke. I run only 93 octane but all of the 93 around here has 10% ethanol in it. It will not fire a lick without squirting fresh 93 down the throat, then it will fire on the first cylinder hit. Once running for a few seconds, no issue and the beast is loose. I would assume that the fuel in the cell is getting a little stirred by the bypassed fuel going back in the tank and swirling a little. I have a Yamaha 1300 FJR that I have not fired in 8 month with 87 octane, with ethanol, and it fires right up. Both are in a heated garage. Someone just told me, and it makes sense, that when gas with ethanol sets, the ethanol will sink to the bottom and cause the starting issues. Anyone heard of this or any thoughts?

2nd post by me.....are we assuming this has an electric pump, with a full return system? surely the bowls aren't simply dry from sitting? (on top of my previous ethanol based post)?

 

[Bewy]

See if the acc pump nozzle is shooting a fuel stream after priming the carb.

 

[Johnny Mac]

See if the acc pump nozzle is shooting a fuel stream after priming the carb.

The acc pump needles can stick from ethanol gum also! Had that happen more than once.

 

[aengineguy]

Some updates to your responses. Good info on the Ethanol, especially the hydroscopic aspect...thanks. Yes it is a good electric fuel pump, with dual Fram filters coming out of the tank and a full return line. When I go to start I turn on the fuel pump and let the pressure come up to a steady 6.5 psi, which would fill the bowls, acc pumps are working just great. Have tons of spark, but the only way to get it to start after setting for a couple of months is to squirt fresh fuel down the carb. I was just filling the primary bowl with fresh fuel thru the vent tube for a while, before turning on the pump, and then giving it a couple of shots with the acc pump, started right up, basically just look at the key and it would fire. I run about about 24 initial degrees (big cam) and I believe I am at 34 total. Transfer slots are square front and back. I will start adding some Staybil type stuff to see if this helps and just keep doing what I can to improve the situation. Thanks to all.

 

[Johnny Mac]

Some updates to your responses. Good info on the Ethanol, especially the hydroscopic aspect...thanks. Yes it is a good electric fuel pump, with dual Fram filters coming out of the tank and a full return line. When I go to start I turn on the fuel pump and let the pressure come up to a steady 6.5 psi, which would fill the bowls, acc pumps are working just great. Have tons of spark, but the only way to get it to start after setting for a couple of months is to squirt fresh fuel down the carb. I was just filling the primary bowl with fresh fuel thru the vent tube for a while, before turning on the pump, and then giving it a couple of shots with the acc pump, started right up, basically just look at the key and it would fire. I run about about 24 initial degrees (big cam) and I believe I am at 34 total. Transfer slots are square front and back. I will start adding some Staybil type stuff to see if this helps and just keep doing what I can to improve the situation. Thanks to all.

Just to be clear... you can turn your pump on, build pressure, then.....pump it 15 times, physically watch the acc pump squirter shoot fuel into the intake, and it still won't start?

Are your float levels full in this "no start" condition? How long are you letting the pump run?

If your acc pumps are shooting fuel when you pump it...it should start. I don't think they are functioning if you can't pump it and get it to start......
Does the carb have a choke? If you are content, then that's good, but seems more is going on.

 

[Rat Bastid]

When they sit for a couple of months there is absolutely no fuel left in the intake manifold. It’s dead dry. Like starting a new engine.

When they are new and everything is dry it takes a pretty good load of fuel to get them to hit right off.

Four to six good pumps to the floor and it should start without priming it, IF what Johnny Mac asks above is correct as that’s the way I’m reading what you wrote as well.

 

[aengineguy]

Just to be clear... you can turn your pump on, build pressure, then.....pump it 15 times, physically watch the acc pump squirter shoot fuel into the intake, and it still won't start?

Are your float levels full in this "no start" condition? How long are you letting the pump run?

If your acc pumps are shooting fuel when you pump it...it should start. I don't think they are functioning if you can't pump it and get it to start......
Does the carb have a choke? If you are content, then that's good, but seems more is going on.

Need not pump it more than 2 times to the floor at the most, otherwise it will flood the crap out of it. The carb has pumps front and rear and yes does have a choke and yes the acc pumps are putting out good solid streams and yes the bowls are full to where they should be. Mind you I have been fighting this for 10 years and the procedure has boiled down to what I have come up with by putting fresh fuel down the barrels and it does not take a whole lot. It will start and run for a few seconds on the new fuel, then possibly die, then I put a little more down the barrels, start again and I am alive. After about a minute of keeping the R's up a little, it settles down to about 8-900 and idles fabulously. I really believe it has to do with the ethanol. Thanks for your response!

Also, the electric pump is 160 gph and 12 psi. I let it run before starting about 5 seconds, till the fuel pressure gauge gets up to a steady 6.5 psi, which tells me that the bowls have filled and any air bubbles are out of the lines.

 

[toolmanmike]

Need not pump it more than 2 times to the floor at the most, otherwise it will flood the crap out of it. The carb has pumps front and rear and yes does have a choke and yes the acc pumps are putting out good solid streams and yes the bowls are full to where they should be. Mind you I have been fighting this for 10 years and the procedure has boiled down to what I have come up with by putting fresh fuel down the barrels and it does not take a whole lot. It will start and run for a few seconds on the new fuel, then possibly die, then I put a little more down the barrels, start again and I am alive. After about a minute of keeping the R's up a little, it settles down to about 8-900 and idles fabulously. I really believe it has to do with the ethanol. Thanks for your response!

Also, the electric pump is 160 gph and 12 psi. I let it run before starting about 5 seconds, till the fuel pressure gauge gets up to a steady 6.5 psi, which tells me that the bowls have filled and any air bubbles are out of the lines.

If it was the ethanol, all of us would be having the same issue. So far it's only you.

 

[goldduster318]

Your bypass regulator is after the carb, right? If it is before that might be a clue. Since you have a bypass you should be able to just jump the fuel pump on for 30 seconds or so and then tell us what happens. At least then we can be sure that any and all air is purged.

Do you have this system with the regulator before the carb?

Or this system with the regulator after the carb?

I personally think the second system is much better.

I honestly don't believe it's the ethanol at all, we're basically all forced to use it and even the most simple fuel systems seem to work fine (My friend has a 71 Demon with a 318 Magnum, 600 Holley, and a mechanical pump and it starts almost immediately with 2-3 pumps after 5 months of winter storage with doing exactly nothing).

 

[Bewy]

[1] E fuel is hygroscopic & absorbs water, which being heavier than the fuel will sit in the bottom of the fuel bowl. So whatever is at the bottom of the bowls goes through the jets first & you maybe pumping water, not fuel into the engine for a first start.
[2] Spark. Reminds me of the song, the 'Great pretender'. I had a coil fail. It produced spark. But the car would not start. Replaced every ign component...except the coil. But it had spark....so could not be the coil, correct?
In desperation, I replaced the coil & the engine fired up. Testing for spark in clear air is not the same as under the compressed air load in the chamber. Also, a yellow-ish spark is weak, blue spark is strong.