1968 Barracuda / Hellcat Redeye swap project

[jamesmcclain340]

trying to get my info straight. doing a hellcat / 6 speed swap sometime soon. trying to figure out the best K member to use. trying to stay budget friendly. lord knows I still have big purchases to make. would prefer to keep the TB but will do disc brakes upgrade (I would like to stop). which is the easier/ cheaper route pre-73 biscuit or 74 and up spool. also I don't want to have to change mounts every other week. thanks for your time.

 

[HemiSSDart]

If I was doing that swap I would use an aftermarket k-frame. I don't believe a factory k-frame and torsion bars can handle it. We did a 5.7 and a 6.1 swap with a kenne-bell and even did a Gen II Hemi and all three used aftermarket k-frames. I think you are in for a world of hurt if you stay with factory parts...

 

[jamesmcclain340]

If I was doing that swap I would use an aftermarket k-frame. I don't believe a factory k-frame and torsion bars can handle it. We did a 5.7 and a 6.1 swap with a kenne-bell and even did a Gen II Hemi and all three used aftermarket k-frames. I think you are in for a world of hurt if you stay with factory parts...

the only problem with that is the QA1 system still uses the old type biscuit mounts

 

[340sFastback]

the only problem with that is the QA1 system still uses the old type biscuit mounts

I use the Schumacher torque strap with my 414 stroker with stock rubber auto parts store motor mounts and have not broken any mounts in 12 years. And no vibrations either:

'66-72 B-Body, '70-74 E-Body, '67+ A-Body Torque Strap

 

[HemiSSDart]

the only problem with that is the QA1 system still uses the old type biscuit mounts

Many other systems than QA1. AlterKtion, Control Freak, gasp Magnum Force, etc. On the AlterKtion I had I could choose which mounts I wanted...

 

[340sport]

check on the E-body site, there's a lot of good stuff there and several with personal experiences

 

[Super-Cuda]

Many other systems than QA1. AlterKtion, Control Freak, gasp Magnum Force, etc. On the AlterKtion I had I could choose which mounts I wanted...

HemiDenny or RMS.

You can talk directly to the owners of these companies and they have first hand experience shoehorning Hemis into A-Bodies.

I have firsthand experience with RMS and the service was stellar. By the comments I've read on this site, I'm sure HemiDenny's service is topnotch as well.

 

[DionR]

If I was doing that swap I would use an aftermarket k-frame. I don't believe a factory k-frame and torsion bars can handle it. We did a 5.7 and a 6.1 swap with a kenne-bell and even did a Gen II Hemi and all three used aftermarket k-frames. I think you are in for a world of hurt if you stay with factory parts...

Not sure why torsion bars can't handle it. The OEM k-frame (in my opinion) should be welded and gusseted, but after that don't see why it can't handle it either. And really not sure the gusseting and such on the factory k-frame is absolutely necessary, I just don't like the steering box flex I am seeing in mine.

Current options for using the new Holley mounts for an A-Body is OEM spool mount k-frame only, far as I know. So that path kind of forces an OEM k-frame.

I agree that losing the torsion bars clears up some room for headers, but there are options for TB cars so it's not like it is impossible.

I know the oil filter is an issue with the OEM k-frames though. the Holley system moves the motor forward about 1.75" and with the 90 degree adapter it clears without issues (already mocked mine up to check). And I know people are using the QA1 k-frame with TB's and moving the PS motor mount back to make that better. I suspect that an OEM k-frame could have the same modification done. The other option is a slant 6 k-frame as the PS motor mount is in a different location and (I think) makes the oil filter issue better as well. Not sure the /6 to G3 mounts are available anymore though.

Another issue with the OEM k-frame is the AC compressor if you run a low mount car style setup. The Holley system works with the OEM k-frame provided you use the later VVT FEAD setup. Other than that, don't know of any options for a low mount AC compressor and an OEM k-frame beyond just rolling your own (been done once that I know of).

Power steering is another issue with the OEM k-frame. There are headers from TTI that are supposed to allow PS with the Borgeson box, and the Holley system works with the same box as well. So it's not impossible to have PS and a G3.

Add all the other arguments over the validity of full aftermarket front ends, and I don't see why the factory k-frame can't be an option.

But to each their own.

 

[DionR]

trying to get my info straight. doing a hellcat / 6 speed swap sometime soon. trying to figure out the best K member to use. trying to stay budget friendly. lord knows I still have big purchases to make. would prefer to keep the TB but will do disc brakes upgrade (I would like to stop). which is the easier/ cheaper route pre-73 biscuit or 74 and up spool. also I don't want to have to change mounts every other week. thanks for your time.

I would think your best option would be the Holley system, which is for the '73+ spool mount V8 k-frame only. This would allow for you to keep the OEM AC compressor (assuming you want AC) and is setup to bolt an HC motor in without having to do firewall mods for the intercooler manifold on the back of the blower.

The biggest drawback (IMO) to the Holley stuff is since the motor is moved forward, the stock trans mount and linkages are wrong. But since you are already planning to do a 6 speed, you would have to rebuild all of that anyways so it doesn't matter. It's annoying to me in that I can't do either my 6 speed swap or my G3 swap one at a time, they both have to be done at the same time. But it's worth it to me since I can keep the low mount AC compressor and not have the oil filter issues.

The other issue is that moving the motor forward is bad for an already front heavy bias, but unless you are building it for a competition arena where every percentage hurts you, I would just ignore it.

 

['Cuda_ragtop]

Budget friendly Hellcat Redeye swap... That's a good one.
I commend your optimism!

Full disclosure, I'm no expert. Just someone that does a fair amount of agonizing over details.
My first swap is still in progress. With that in mind, here are a few of my personal observations, opinions.
First, I'm not a fan of moving the engine forward 1.75"... there isn't a lot of space up front for radiator and fans or a shroud to start with.
Plan on major tunnel work regardless, unless you are using some of the old school transmissions.
No experience with a Hellcat motor but A-Bodies have a lot less room to work with than B or E bodies. Currently building a 6.1 69 Barracuda Fastback with 8HP70 8-speed.
I went with QA1 tubular K-Member and moved the passenger mount rearward to keep the stock oil filter location. It maintains the TB suspension. Also added USCT Subframe connectors, F/R torque boxes, inner fender braces, shock towers are braced and boxed in. Replaced the radiator core support with USCT's full replacement Core Support. 6.1 intake clears the firewall and wiper motor without any mods.
A Hellcat will most likely require firewall mods and wiper motor change/eliminate/relocate. Smaller modern wiper motors can be located inside the firewall.

My QA1 with TTi mounts.
Passenger side mount modified/moved. Plenty of clearance and access to the stock filter location.
No adapter or filter relocate needed.

A couple benefits of using Schumacher Creative Services Poly-Loc Biscuit Mounts, they allow for more adjustability with engine positioning IMO. They also allow shimming left right mounts or both to adjust "clocking" the engine for optimum clearances... it's a dance of fractions of an inch.
No experience with spool mounts, bonus if they adjust... if not "¯\_(ツ)_/¯"
Schumacher Poly-Loc isolator cutaway view.
They are a bit thicker than stock rubber isolators, which is actually a good thing, helps a little with clearance.
Have not heard of one of these Poly-Loc biscuit style isolator failing.
Not saying they never fail, just that I've never heard of one failing...

Wedge shaped Shim I made for the driver's side. Helped with a little more header to steering box clearance.
It's a tight fit for sure, but the TTi mounts work with my TTi Headers and Mopar Manual steering box.

The before and after shim... modified/repurposed rear end shim from an off-road shop. Came in a pair.
Cut one down, sanded and painted.

Electric power steering from EPAS performance with a modified Ididit tilt steering column helps reduce clutter in the engine compartment. Eliminates; PS Pump, Brackets, Reservoir, Belt, Hoses, Fluid, constant parasitic HP drain on the engine. Motor is inside, under the dash. Probably save a little weight too.
My complete EPAS Column. Electronic control box not shown. Input/output sensors manage the amount of assist in real time as needed. User adjustable for more or less to suit.
Also clears my TTi headers and 6.1 valve covers. Stock column, stock steering coupler would not.
Solves multiple challenges. Collapsible too to maintain a margin of safety. 3/4" DD lower shaft into the 1" DD upper shaft. I added the upper U-joint just in case, for mounting flexibility. May not have needed it...
I also made my own firewall mounting plate with bearing.

With only an AC compressor and alternator front accessories, I chose March Performance Serpentine kit.
It solved my AC compressor location and I really like how it looks. I modified it and routed the belts to my liking. Don't know if March has a system for Hellcat motors...

Link to my project thread on FABO - G3 Hemi 69 Barracuda Fastback Father Son Project
I look forward to seeing your build!

 

[jamesmcclain340]

I know that I probably have some of you scratching your head over the budget issue. 14,000 for the motor. 8,200 for the transmission. looking at 3,000 for the rear end. 3,000 for the ECU to run it. 1,000 for the fuel system. probably another 2,000 for misc. looking at 2,000 worth of Sheetmetal and car fab work. 3,000 worth of paint. 2,000 interior. 1,500 wheels and tires. its adding up quickly and I'm still at the beginning. So pardon me if I'm a little hesitant of dropping 5,000 for a K member when I could shave 1500 off of that for somewhere else. And yes those prices are with me doing the labor except shooting the paint. I appreciate all of your opinions and will have to balance the project as a whole. I am trying to give myself 3 years to get this done. hopefully.

 

[erict]

I’m doing this swap now. As others have said, I highly recommend an aftermarket K. I’m running HDK. This will give you way more room for headers, starter, steering, etc. There is also hood clearance. Even with the aftermarket k’s you will have to modify motor mounts to clear a stock hood. I’m not sure it would be possible at all with a factory K

I hear you on the cost but I think it’s worth it. Plus you are gaining better handling and weight savings. I’ve been happy Hemidenny parts and service. Maybe the only slight negative is the mustang II based steering and brakes. Check out my build

 

[DionR]

Plus you are gaining better handling and weight savings.

If by "better handling" you mean compared to worn out stock stuff coming out of a car, no argument. But that's about as far as I would agree. Rather not get into the typical tug of war between coil over kits and upgrading the TB suspension so I will leave it at that.

 

[DionR]

First, I'm not a fan of moving the engine forward 1.75"... there isn't a lot of space up front for radiator and fans or a shroud to start with.

Absolutely, very well could be an issue and one I don't have any experience with. Add that an HC has an additional belt to drive the SC that adds depth to the FEAD setup, and it could be a problem. I would hope that if Holley is marketing their mounts to work with an HC in an A-Body, then they looked into it. But I'm not ready to believe they did.

At the same time this thread makes me wonder if it wouldn't be fine.

Note that is erict's thread and he used an aftermarket intercooler manifold so it doesn't look like he had to cut the firewall, although he did say everything had to come off the firewall. Not sure about his motor location either since he has an HDK kit.

In addition, MMX built a Dart with an HC, and best I can tell didn't mess with the firewall and uses the OEM FEAD. So maybe it works? No idea what motor mounts or anything for their build.

MMX's Hellcat Powered 1971 Dodge Dart Build for HOT ROD 2021 Drag Week by Modern Muscle Xtreme

Here is a build using a QA1 k-frame (I think) and a Hotchkis TVS system - 68 Valiant Hellcat Swap

I suspect an aftermarket intercooler manifold would have made those cuts smaller.

My QA1 with TTi mounts.
Passenger side mount modified/moved. Plenty of clearance and access to the stock filter location.
No adapter or filter relocate needed.
View attachment 1716058037

Pretty slick fix. I would have given you credit earlier but didn't have time to look you up.

FYI, the HC has an adapter there that has to be kept if anyone plans to use the oil cooler they run from the factory. Nothing says anyone has to though.

Electric power steering from EPAS performance with a modified Ididit tilt steering column helps reduce clutter in the engine compartment. Eliminates; PS Pump, Brackets, Reservoir, Belt, Hoses, Fluid, constant parasitic HP drain on the engine. Motor is inside, under the dash. Probably save a little weight too.
My complete EPAS Column. Electronic control box not shown. Input/output sensors manage the amount of assist in real time as needed. User adjustable for more or less to suit.
Also clears my TTi headers and 6.1 valve covers. Stock column, stock steering coupler would not.
Solves multiple challenges. Collapsible too to maintain a margin of safety. 3/4" DD lower shaft into the 1" DD upper shaft. I added the upper U-joint just in case, for mounting flexibility. May not have needed it...
I also made my own firewall mounting plate with bearing.

View attachment 1716058082

Love that solution, and one I had forgotten about. I had planned do do that exactly thing at some point, but ended up going with a Borgeson due to a coupon and the fact that it was quicker to do. My car was originally a manual box car and it kind of hurt to put PS on it, but it sure was is nicer to drive.

I wonder if the HC pump can be swapped for the 5.7 idler mount, or if there is a specific idler mount to replace the HC pump. No idea.

With only an AC compressor and alternator front accessories, I chose March Performance Serpentine kit.
It solved my AC compressor location and I really like how it looks. I modified it and routed the belts to my liking. Don't know if March has a system for Hellcat motors...
View attachment 1716058083

Great solution for the low mount AC compressor interference with the stock motor mount location. Holley has a similar one, but they use their own TC cover and water pump casting which probably drives the cost up quickly ($3K+).

And I can't find a Holley FEAD kit for an HC. Because the HC has the additional serpentine belt for the SC, I would bet no one makes an aftermarket setup. But I didn't go look beyond what the Holley offers were.

 

[DionR]

You know, it sticks in my head that I read somewhere that the HC get's everything new upfront. And looking at the above pictures, it looks like the SC belt is behind the FEAD belt, which means the AC compressor is probably already moved forward. So, might be that an HC doesn't have issues (or less of an issue) with the low mount compressor. Just a thought.

Edit - See below. Don't think this is true.

 

[DionR]

Found another post about using an aftermarket intercooler manifold saving cutting the firewall.

68 Valiant Hellcat Swap

And this pictures leads me to believe that moving the engine forward 1.75" shouldn't be a problem. But it's still just a guess on my part.

 

[Johnny Mac]

Following!

 

[DionR]

You know, it sticks in my head that I read somewhere that the HC get's everything new upfront. And looking at the above pictures, it looks like the SC belt is behind the FEAD belt, which means the AC compressor is probably already moved forward. So, might be that an HC doesn't have issues (or less of an issue) with the low mount compressor. Just a thought.

I think this idea is junk.

Got curious this morning and looked up AC compressor part numbers for an HC and a 6.4 and they are the same. Pretty sure the 6.2 and 6.4 blocks are the same in the motor mount/compressor area so thought maybe the HC uses a different boss on the block.

This picture from erict's thread makes me think they use the same boss:

That addition bolt hole below (above?) the rear AC compressor mount on the above picture is covered and can be used for the Holley swap mounts, so it isn't used for the AC compressor on the 6.4/5.7.

So, I don't think the FEAD is any further forward on an HC than it is on a 5.7/6.4. Somehow Mopar seems to have been able to fit the SC belt behind the FEAD belt. At least I think that is the case.

It should also be noted that the FEAD is further forward on a 6.4 compared to a 6.1 by about 1/2". There is disagreement on the 5.7 but far as I know everyone agrees that the non-VVT 5.7 matches the 6.1 and the 5.7 after '11 is a match to the 6.4. I believe the '09 and '10 5.7 shares the same FEAD spacing as the non-VVT motors even though it has VVT, but that is yet to be proven.

 

[racerjoe]

I think this idea is junk.

Got curious this morning and looked up AC compressor part numbers for an HC and a 6.4 and they are the same. Pretty sure the 6.2 and 6.4 blocks are the same in the motor mount/compressor area so thought maybe the HC uses a different boss on the block.

This picture from erict's thread makes me think they use the same boss:

View attachment 1716058432

That addition bolt hole below (above?) the rear AC compressor mount on the above picture is covered and can be used for the Holley swap mounts, so it isn't used for the AC compressor on the 6.4/5.7.

So, I don't think the FEAD is any further forward on an HC than it is on a 5.7/6.4. Somehow Mopar seems to have been able to fit the SC belt behind the FEAD belt. At least I think that is the case.

It should also be noted that the FEAD is further forward on a 6.4 compared to a 6.1 by about 1/2". There is disagreement on the 5.7 but far as I know everyone agrees that the non-VVT 5.7 matches the 6.1 and the 5.7 after '11 is a match to the 6.4. I believe the '09 and '10 5.7 shares the same FEAD spacing as the non-VVT motors even though it has VVT, but that is yet to be proven.

Bouchillon sells a shorter compressor that kinda looks like the one on hellcats. I think somewhere on TTI's website they reference some of these shorter compressors. Their site is under construction right now, so I'll have to look back later.

 

[racerjoe]

My $.02 on hellcat and redeye swaps into A bodies... I love it and admire the tenacity of the ones that are attempting/doing it. There is a certain cool factor when you see it under the hood. Everyone knows what a hellcat engine is as soon as they see it. My opinion would be to get a 6.4, throw some drop in rods and pistons, and top it off with a 3 or 4 liter whipple. No reason that combo won't make 1000HP and it won't be as bulky. Obviously you lose the factory ECU, but I think this route would be easier from a packaging standpoint. Note- I haven't done any real research on this, just thinking out loud.

 

[dusterdoug]

If I was doing that swap I would use an aftermarket k-frame. I don't believe a factory k-frame and torsion bars can handle it. We did a 5.7 and a 6.1 swap with a kenne-bell and even did a Gen II Hemi and all three used aftermarket k-frames. I think you are in for a world of hurt if you stay with factory parts..

Hmmm, many SS/AA and A and B/MP A-bodies back in the day at 700, 750, 800 hp would debunk that thought.

Todays SS/AH cars still have torsion bars and braced steering boxes, right? Yes, they have notched and boxed K members, but that’s for oil pan removal more than anything. 8.30’s @ 160+ speaks for itself.

I don’t care how much hellcat/redeye you throw at it, it won’t be as violent as todays hemi SS cars.

 

[HemiSSDart]

Hmmm, many SS/AA and A and B/MP A-bodies back in the day at 700, 750, 800 hp would debunk that thought.

Todays SS/AH cars still have torsion bars and braced steering boxes, right? Yes, they have notched and boxed K members, but that’s for oil pan removal more than anything. 8.30’s @ 160+ speaks for itself.

I don’t care how much hellcat/redeye you throw at it, it won’t be as violent as todays hemi SS cars.

I have been up close and personal with today's SS/AH cars and there is nothing "stock" on any front suspension on those cars!

 

[DionR]

First, I'm not a fan of moving the engine forward 1.75"... there isn't a lot of space up front for radiator and fans or a shroud to start with.

Just to follow up on this, Ehrenburg is doing a G3 swaps series in two A-Bodies (the second one being the Green Brick) in Mopar Action. He is using the Holley mounts for at least the first one and in the most recent article he did have to clearance the fan shroud due to interference with the water pump or something. So you are right that moving the motor forward causes some challenges with the FEAD clearances.

Seems like six of one, half dozen of the other. My brother is doing a 6.4 swap into a Demon and had to remove the bottom stud for the wiper motor to get his Edelbrock intake to bolt down. And there was no way he was going to be able to run the SRV solenoid on the stock 6.4 intake he tried. Add that the Holley mounts mean you can run the stock FEAD and low mount AC compressor if you want. So making some things work means others are tight.

To be clear, in wasn't like Ehrenburg couldn't get things to fit, only that it took some minor trimming. Now, he used a LX/LC radiator and fan setup which could be slimmer than some might want to run which means a thick 8 core ( ) radiator might not work.

 

[DionR]

Just to follow up on this, Ehrenburg is doing a G3 swaps series in two A-Bodies (the second one being the Green Brick) in Mopar Action. He is using the Holley mounts for at least the first one and in the most recent article he did have to clearance the fan shroud due to interference with the water pump or something. So you are right that moving the motor forward causes some challenges with the FEAD clearances.

Seems like six of one, half dozen of the other. My brother is doing a 6.4 swap into a Demon and had to remove the bottom stud for the wiper motor to get his Edelbrock intake to bolt down. And there was no way he was going to be able to run the SRV solenoid on the stock 6.4 intake he tried. Add that the Holley mounts mean you can run the stock FEAD and low mount AC compressor if you want. So making some things work means others are tight.

To be clear, in wasn't like Ehrenburg couldn't get things to fit, only that it took some minor trimming. Now, he used a LX/LC radiator and fan setup which could be slimmer than some might want to run which means a thick 8 core ( ) radiator might not work.

But wait, there's more!

I guess the swap in question used the Holley FEAD kit which, I guess, adds length to the motor. No idea how much, but it sounds like while the stock FEAD might be tight, it should be even less of an issue than with the Holley stuff.