I let a guy drive my 78 Apollo and I saw him shift to reverse without completely stopping or Drive from reverse at really low speed. Long story short it doesn't start in Drive or 2nd, it wants to but has no power. It starts real easy in 1 and manually upshift for 2 and D. I read a bit about possible 2-3 valve stuck or governer stuck. Didn't do the pressure test in Drive to verify for sure. I just need some input to confirm it. I'm going to check the fluid level in neutral I already did in Park but read that is not accurate. Do I nee to roll it down the hill with engine off and attempt the Park engaging trick. Doesn't it have to go through reverse, but with engine off it might not matter. Anyhow enough rambling on my part, I need some help, thanks in advance.
1978 Dodge Apollo RV(big *****) 440-3 with 727tranny only engaging manually
- Thread starter gica
- Start date
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azchileman
63DartGT
Sounds to me like your sprag (overrunning clutch) has failed.
Looking at the tranny layout the Lowreverse band is towards the middle followed by the overunning clutch and governer goes last. I know you can get to the governer with the tranny on don't know about the rest. Do any of you know or have done it or is this a tranny pulldown job. Also can the RV be driven the way it is by shifting manually? Thanks for all the input. Here's alink to explain what you guys said with the diagram. Look towards the middle of the page Manual Low, Drive Second or Manual Second then Drive Second or Manual Second then Direct Drive.
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/torqueflite-tom-hand.html
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/torqueflite-tom-hand.html
Dude as long as the fliud level is up, even over filling its ok. Thats not the problem. An old trick to free up a sticky governer, is run the car over 30 miles an hour and then throw it into park, hold it there for like 1 or 2 seconds. This will cause a hanering effect on the governer vaules in the governer assemlby at the out put shaft via the parking gear and paw. If this is happening often then there is some sort of metal flaking off from some where in the trans. A bad sprag clutch could cause this as you say that it dosent move in drive only if you manually upshift. This tells me the rear band or low reverse band (same) is what's holding it in low or 1st gear. Drop the pan and that will tell the tail. If so then some internal repair or overhaul is in order. But remember, anytime there is heavy metal flaking, a repair is needed, cause metal flaking gets going through out the trans. Torqueflights are tuff trannys. This trick and work, but usually only only on TF's or Fords 904's 727's, c-4's c-6's and even Powerguilds. I used to have a trans shop back in the day so I know a few tricks, good luck.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Sounds like a stuck governor or shift valve to me. I'm not saying it can't but I'm not sure how a failed sprague could cause your problem because engaging it into reverse applies the rear band so it takes the shock from the sprague. It could damage the rear band though but since it drives you can test the rear band operation easily by first driving the van up to speed until your in high gear, about 25 mph will do, then let off the gas and downshift into 1st. If the trans. brakes (causes the van to slow down like you applied the brakes) the rear band and servo are working.
Also, did this problem actually happen immediately after the guy drove it and put it in reverse or a while after? I get the idea it wasn't immediately. If he was going real slow like you said it'd surprise me if that damaged it.
And when you say it tries to take off in drive how is it acting? Is the engine wildly revving up and trying to pull a little but not going anywhere like a clutch is slipping bad or does the engine load down like it's in high gear and it just doesn't have the guts to pull the big RV in high gear? Need this clairified.
BTW: you said
Also, did this problem actually happen immediately after the guy drove it and put it in reverse or a while after? I get the idea it wasn't immediately. If he was going real slow like you said it'd surprise me if that damaged it.
And when you say it tries to take off in drive how is it acting? Is the engine wildly revving up and trying to pull a little but not going anywhere like a clutch is slipping bad or does the engine load down like it's in high gear and it just doesn't have the guts to pull the big RV in high gear? Need this clairified.
BTW: you said
. Never ever ever do this!!! What in the world gave you a idea something like that would help???? That's a quick way to damage the parking pawl and send schrapnel all through the trans.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Yes the governor is accessible by removing the extension housing. Access to the rear band, sprague and all other components require complete disassembly of the trans..
Inertia
Well-Known Member
You didn't mention if you had reverse?
If no reverse - I kinda think the low/reverse band may have been a little sloppy,, and the forward to reverse caused the band to shift in such a manner as to tweek the low/reverse servo out of it's cylinder, causing symptons as you describe.. similar/exactly to a broken band,
Fishy is welcome to correct me,, but the motorhome trans should have the double wrap around (hemi) band,, and they seldom break,, wear out maybe, but seldom break...
But on a moho,, that's a lotta weight..
And the rolling down hill trick, only works with automatic transmission with a rear pump, driven by the driveshaft, and you would pull it into LOW while at a low speed,, like bump starting a manual trans car.. those auto's went outta production in, I'm guessing,, the early 60's...
GAWD!!!--- I hate remembering this ..stuff...
And big congrats at pulling up a manual., and actually trying to understanding what's going on in there...
If no reverse - I kinda think the low/reverse band may have been a little sloppy,, and the forward to reverse caused the band to shift in such a manner as to tweek the low/reverse servo out of it's cylinder, causing symptons as you describe.. similar/exactly to a broken band,
Fishy is welcome to correct me,, but the motorhome trans should have the double wrap around (hemi) band,, and they seldom break,, wear out maybe, but seldom break...
But on a moho,, that's a lotta weight..
And the rolling down hill trick, only works with automatic transmission with a rear pump, driven by the driveshaft, and you would pull it into LOW while at a low speed,, like bump starting a manual trans car.. those auto's went outta production in, I'm guessing,, the early 60's...
GAWD!!!--- I hate remembering this ..stuff...
And big congrats at pulling up a manual., and actually trying to understanding what's going on in there...
The RV does have reverse and it works like new. The car was just sitting for awhile(2 years) and that might also be a factor. I cannot drive in Drive or Second it wants to take off but it doesn't move the RV. So I go straight to 1st manually then hift to second and then Drive. So it doesn't work straight Drive or 2nd. I don't know if this happened right after the guy shifted back and forth to reverse and drive while moving, but it was within a day or so. The tranny was fully rebuilt in 2006 it cost $2400. The guy that had it then passed away it sort of fell into my hands. So one day this guy shows up asking me if he can make payments and live in it. I'm sort of helping him out at the moment. That's the story also engine and carb were fully rebuilt and it has 65k miles. The kickdown cable is sort of tight when I press the gas pedal all the way and try to push the cable towards the back of the RV to see adjustment it is very tight not easily pushed. Thanks and keep it coming.
d55dave
Well-Known Member
Have you checked the fluid level? This is step 1. It has to be at a warm idle and in neutral.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Since reverse works correctly it's undoubtedly an issue with the governor being stuck (1st thing I'd check) or it's possible one of the shift valves is stuck or has a broken spring in the valve body. You can check the fluid level if you like as it is a good idea but since you said reverse works fine and it takes off in manual low fine I can't see a low fluid level issue causing your problem, but stranger things have happened.
BTW: I feel for the original owner paying $2400 for a rebuild. He got ripped off big time IMO. Torqueflites are so simple and cheap to rebuild it should never cost anywhere close to that even if it has all kinds of broken mechanical parts.
BTW: I feel for the original owner paying $2400 for a rebuild. He got ripped off big time IMO. Torqueflites are so simple and cheap to rebuild it should never cost anywhere close to that even if it has all kinds of broken mechanical parts.
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
what is the matter with your head? thats just like telling someone to put water in there engine to clean it!
the parking pawl on a torqueflite transmission is about the size around of your pinky finger, maybe smaller jamming it into park with the weight of a vehicle against it is a good way to snap it off!
I did check the level in neutral and it's a bit above full. and Yoddaman it doesn't get stuck in 1st and not shift, it just doesn't take off in Drive or second. It only works in 1st and then manual second and manual Drive.
So Fishy if I read you correctly you mention that the governer could be an issue? If so how do I resolve it? I do think they paid too much for that rebuid also. Thanks
So Fishy if I read you correctly you mention that the governer could be an issue? If so how do I resolve it? I do think they paid too much for that rebuid also. Thanks
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
You can run a governor pressure test on it. To do so hook up a pressure 100 psi. gauge to the 1/8" NPT test port just below and forward of the speedometer cable hookup on the extension housing. Start the vehicle and run it in gear until it's warmed up then stop the back wheels and read the pressure in drive with the brakes on holding the back wheels from turning. It needs to be less that 1.5 psi or it'll want to take off in a higher gear than 1st. What it should do is start out low then increase as you accelerate. If it is indeed stuck you'll probably see a pretty high reading at idle in drive with the wheels stopped. If it checks out to be less than 1.5 psi at idle the problem is elsewhere. I haven't ran accross any with a stuck 1-2 or 2-3 shift valve in the valve body but it's possible. I'm just not positively sure I can say it'd do what yours is doing but I think it could. Either way if the governor pressure tests ok the next step is to drop the pan and see if there's metal in it and if not drop the valve body and check the shift valves. If it comes to that let me know and I can post some pics of an exploded view of the valve body so you'll know what to look for. If the governor pressure tes fails you'll need to drop the driveshaft and take off the extension housing to get to the governor and I can post some pics of that area also. Except for the large snap ring that holds the extension housing on taking it apart is real easy.
Nooooo....that's why you do about 20-30 miles per hr. You can at a stop rear the engine a bit and put it in drive and reverse back and forth quickly, only if its a governor issue. But this problem you saying really is a damaged sprag that spun in the case. RV's are heavy this is a common problem. Chances are you blew the sprag, that's why it moves in manual low and upshipts to 2nd-3rd, come to a stop you repeat, like having a 3 speed manual......Call me if you like to talk about it...201-316-4585.
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
so at 20-30 MPH and a 6+ ton vehicle; ramming it in park won't harm the park pawl?:violent1:
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
I am guessing his suggestion is that the park pawl will just rattle and not lock into a slot at that speed. Wasn't "hanering effect" perfectly clear? (run to the dictionary). Perhaps the rattling frees up a stuck governor. Sounds scary to me too. In a car, if it latched into park it would probably just skid the tires, but in a motorhome, ...
I'll look for a 100psi pressure gauge. The 1/8 npt reqires special fitting or just male/female 1/8npt? Or can I just use a convert fitting and plug a bare hose into it that will hook up to the gauge? I'll try the idle in drive with the wheels blocked. The RV is on a side street and I'll do it there it. Not that I'll be under whill in Drive but it better not decide to work all of a sudden.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Yeah it's a standard 1/8" pipe thread female port so all ya need is a 1/8" male fitting to go in it. If you have a long hose that's the best. That way you can sit in the drivers seat and shift it gear then read the gauge.
If you got a tractor supply or tool house near by you should be able to find a gauge fairly cheap. I have a tool supply near me that has them for about $10. The hose and fittings are usually more costly than the gauge.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
It's a privately owned store. He buys up stuff from places going out of busniess. Aparently he gets some screamin deals on things. Last time i was there about 3 months ago he had a whole wall of gauges of different pressures and varieties and sizes ranging from $5 to $25. I needed 2 100 psi gauges and got them both for right at $20. Mind you their not absolute top quality but plenty good for all but the most precise jobs. I'm sure their every bit as good as most you'll find on E-bay.
Here's a link to their website. I didn't see any gauges listed but he doesn't have everything on the web so you'd need to call Chuck up and ask. 1-618-259-5133 Tell him what your doing and he might even be able to set you up with hose and fittings. He's a real good guy to do business with.
http://www.waltcotoolsinc.com/
Here's a link to their website. I didn't see any gauges listed but he doesn't have everything on the web so you'd need to call Chuck up and ask. 1-618-259-5133 Tell him what your doing and he might even be able to set you up with hose and fittings. He's a real good guy to do business with.
http://www.waltcotoolsinc.com/
Seeing that the reading has to be at 1.5PSI can I use a gaue that's below 100PSI lets say at 15psi to read more accurately. I have an exhaust back pressure gauge that I just bought to test a cat on a Chevy and it is 15 PSI. The 100psi gauges go 0-10-20 so on and only have 4-5 bars in between not tooo accurate for low readings. Let me know, and thanks.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
A low pressure gauge will work and is more accurate (or at least easier to read) for the test in drive unless the governor's stuck in which case the pressure might be 50 psi or higher.
If the 100 psi gauge doesn't move much you could then hook up the low pressure gauge to see exactly what it is. I don't know how much pressure it takes to cause it to immediately go into 3rd gear when you put it in drive but I know a buddy of mine had a 727 that wouldn't downshift to 2nd on it's own and we tested it and it only showed 5-6 psi.
If the 100 psi gauge doesn't move much you could then hook up the low pressure gauge to see exactly what it is. I don't know how much pressure it takes to cause it to immediately go into 3rd gear when you put it in drive but I know a buddy of mine had a 727 that wouldn't downshift to 2nd on it's own and we tested it and it only showed 5-6 psi.
66plyValiant
Well-Known Member
I would be checking and adjusting the kickdown linkage after the pressure tests, doesn't take much time and it may help
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