1st Gen Camaro Susp. vs. Mopar torsion bar system

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mopardude318

mopardude318

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Hello Fabo. My buddy Chris is a Chevy guy and is a PROUD owner of a '67 Chevy Camaro 327 4 spd car. He swears up and down that the GM front clip/Camaro suspension is WAY better than the Mopar torsion bar system...Well I can't convince him, and I need some cold hard facts to prove him wrong. I truly believe that Mopars will be able to out handle a Camaro any day of the weak...I have my 68 Barracuda that isn't on the road yet, and I'm building it to handle using the stock design. (I have my own thread entitled "68 'cuda suspension rebuild") So, can you suspension gurus list the pros and cons of each system?
 
hi, I have a 1973 Holden Monaro which has front suspension very similar to the camaro and the mopar torsion bar setup is easily superior.
The mopars ride far better while still handling better.
To get the holden to handle better means a severe sacrifice on ride quality.
 
The Achilles heel of the 1st gen F/X body front suspension were the ball joints. They wore out quick (50-60K miles) on my car. Since they wore fast, it was tough to keep the car aligned properly. The front suspension on the Camaro car is not adjustable for height.

Mopar, IMHO, undermined the handling capablity of the A-body by putting just enough rubber under it to keep it off the ground. The Camaro used at least a size larger tire than the A-body did.
 
Being I am old GM guy this means I have owned both types of cars ('69 Camaro & my current a-bodys). The problem with the Camaro is that the subframe is mounted to the car with rubber bushings. This does not lend well to a handling situation. There is aftermarket solid bushings to replace the rubber ones but stock to stock The Mopar solid subframe (K-member) is better.

I do like the Saginaw steering boxes on the GM better though. They have a better "road feel" and resistance to them.

One other thing is the springs. The best Sprint car chassis use torsion bars will the others use coils so there you go there.


Chuck
 
The torsion bar suspension has less un-sprung weight than the standard upper/lower control arm, coil spring suspension.

Less unsprung weight = better handling.
 
RogerK said:
The torsion bar suspension has less un-sprung weight than the standard upper/lower control arm, coil spring suspension.

Less unsprung weight = better handling.
Click to expand...


Forgot about that one. The coil spring on the GM is quite heavy.


Chuck
 
I am going to throw one in...

Compare my 81 9C1 police Malibu to an A38 Dippy.

The Malibu is a better balanced car and definitely out handle the Dippy.

GM (at least in the late 70's and thru the 96 model year) put a lot of $ into suspension developement and fine-tuned cars with various springs and sway bars not to mention frame bracings. My Malibu had different springs and sway bars than the F-41 Sport suspension that was optional on regular Malibus.

But as far as torsion bar vs coil- they are 2 just different springs - 1 wound and 1 straight.

I would not flog either a 69 Camaro Or A-body as the suspension technology had not caught up with the tire development and all they want to do is understeer your *** right into a ditch.
However, my dads 68 Coronet cop car had front AND rear bars like the LA Sheriffs cars and would flat fly around corners, much to the dismay of the local cops that were stuck with Chevies.
 
Dave, The Malibu (g-body) is a much different animal that the early Camaro (f-body). The g-body is a full frame car and agree is a solid foundation car. I owned a Regal T-type from the 80's and it was ten times the car the early Camaro was. I will be nice and not say what I think of the Diplomat.


Chuck
 
Exibit "A" would be the picture to the left. This A body has no problems outrunning the chevys, on the worlds fastest 1/2 mile trioval track. :cheers:
 
Exhibit B...

McVeysHemiDart.jpg


It would outrun my 9C1 Malibu....to the 1st corner.
 
Might be worth pointing out that the Green Brick outran many a newer car in the One Lap of America with just a blueprinted stock suspension, including several Vipers and Porsches. Seems like there were several Camaro's, one of which was a Stielow car, included in that list.
 
Bring this question back next year. My son has a '67 Firebird, pretty much stock, with a 326 & 4 speed. I hope to complete my '72 Duster this year and will be able to give a good side by side comparison.
But then, when you complete your build you will be able to do the same with your buddy.
C
 
I'd wonder out loud and ask him WHY if it sucks so bad, then WHY is GM useing a T-bar suspension now, as in todays SUV's.

I love exibit A... exibit number B and DionR makes a great note about the Green Brick.

As a owner of a '79 Dodge Magnum, I know about the rubber sttaching hardware stuff. While it is fine for a quiter ride and good feeling road quality, it does nothing for the handling of the car when pushed. The ISO susspension is fine for a road cruiser. And that is where it ends.
 
DionR said:
Might be worth pointing out that the Green Brick outran many a newer car in the One Lap of America with just a blueprinted stock suspension, including several Vipers and Porsches. Seems like there were several Camaro's, one of which was a Stielow car, included in that list.
Click to expand...

Ditto, I seem to remember they always won their class and came close to winning the whole thing a couple of times.
 
DionR said:
Might be worth pointing out that the Green Brick outran many a newer car in the One Lap of America with just a blueprinted stock suspension, including several Vipers and Porsches. Seems like there were several Camaro's, one of which was a Stielow car, included in that list.
Click to expand...

That's right, no aftermarket k-frame, no rack & pinion, no multi-link rear suspension, just the best of what Mopar offered. Torsion bars and stagecoach leaf springs gettin' it done!

Ever notice that almost all late 60's/up GM's came with decent size sway bars from the factory? I used to be jealous of that until I realized why. They needed sway bars just to make them handle adequately, while our cars with superior suspension geometry handle as well, if not better, with no bars.
 
Yep, as far as it goes, T-bars and coils are both springs, as it's been said. One is straight, one is coiled. The main difference is how the spring manages the suspension.
The T-bar works directly on the pivot of the LCA, whereas the coil works farther out on the LCA and has to overcome a certain amount of leverage imparted agains it. The other factor to consider is that the tie rod geometery is much more favorable to Mopars. Without getting all technical on this one, it's easy to prove. Watch the toe change on a 1st gen Camaro when you lift the front end versus the toe change on an A body when you lift the nose off of the ground.
 
I think, back in the day Chrysler won a lot of NASCAR races with torsion bars. They even outlawed Dodge Daytona and Superbird as making everyone else noncompetitive.
 
Revhendo said:
The other factor to consider is that the tie rod geometery is much more favorable to Mopars. Without getting all technical on this one, it's easy to prove. Watch the toe change on a 1st gen Camaro when you lift the front end versus the toe change on an A body when you lift the nose off of the ground.
Click to expand...

That's exactly why GM put the fatter sway bars on their cars - to limit supension travel and therfore toe change, bump steer, etc.

Couldn't have said it better myself!
 
66fs said:
I think, back in the day Chrysler won a lot of NASCAR races with torsion bars. They even outlawed Dodge Daytona and Superbird as making everyone else noncompetitive.
Click to expand...

I think that was due to the Hemi engine and the rear wing that added the down force.

...but I digress.
 
Yea, and they won a bunch more after the hemi AND the wing were gone. But they still had torsion bars and leaf springs.
 
Mr. Ed...
Fit a rear sway bar from a Dippy cop car (or even better, 1 from a 76 A-body cop car) and put it your A Body.

You would not believe the difference.
 
yellowdartdave said:
Mr. Ed...
Fit a rear sway bar from a Dippy cop car (or even better, 1 from a 76 A-body cop car) and put it your A Body.

You would not believe the difference.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying sway bars are bad, just saying that GM used them to cover up deficiencies in their suspension design. I've got a 1 1/4 tubular bar in front and waiting to get the car running and on the road to "dial in" the handling with a rear bar. Still a long ways away though :(.
 
I club raced the vg valiant in my sig.
And I was quicker around calder park than a mid '70s Porsche 911.
1" torsion bars, 1" front sway bar, 6 leaf rear springs, good shocks all round.
As much camber and caster as I could dial in. Running street tyres and stock borg warner 35 auto, open 3.23:1 diff, discs on front and rear drums, all stock except for hardest pads you could use on the street. slight cam and 4 barrel in the 245.

When the porsche driver came over to see why my val was quicker, he was shattered to see that it was still a column shift automatic.

Sensible mods to the mopars and they can handle very well indeed.
 
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