2 barrel to 4 barrel

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No I'm not, it was brought up in general discussion by a couple of us car enthusiasts. I just don't hang out with mopar owners. I don't believe in mopar or no car.
well dan, you're clearly in the no car camp as we all know.

(i'm sorry man, but if you keep serving them up, we're just gonna keep knocking 'em out)
 
To answer the original question, changing only the carb from a 2 to 4bbl [ & a 4bbl intake ], I agree with the others about 15-20 hp. Very little if any benefit at the lower end. However, using a high signal carb that has annular pri boosters like the Edel 500 AVS2 would would probably add some low end tq as well.
 
Definatly worth it starting with a stock 230 hp 9.2:1 cr 1969 Plymouth Satellite 318.

Added an Edelbrock 1406 600 cfm 4 barrel.

Lots of noticeable fun and acceleration with the added cfm and the secondaries.

Night and day difference over the stock BBD 318 2 barrel.

20230124_110028.jpg



☆☆☆☆☆
 
^^^agreed^^^ I built a 273 with a BBD that was Okayish, but wouldn't Pull past 4800 R's...
Put a 500cfm AFB on it and now it Rips to 5500!

2bbl.jpg


1.jpg
 
One of the better stock 360 Thermoquad intakes with a 750 CFM TQ
Good bang for the buck
You will definitely feel it in the seat of your pants
 
One of the better stock 360 Thermoquad intakes with a 750 CFM TQ
Good bang for the buck
You will definitely feel it in the seat of your pants
Even on a stock 273 2 barrel engine. You have to remember a 318 has a very small hydraulic cam with no lift and no duration. 50 hp requires more compression, cam change, as well as the little things that all add up. Still a worthwhile upgrade. The only car I liked with a 2 barrel carb was my 170 slant six. Check the 318 HP in the late 70's when there was a 4 barrel 318 with the same cam and compression as the 2 barrel.
 
No I'm not, it was brought up in general discussion by a couple of us car enthusiasts. I just don't hang out with mopar owners. I don't believe in mopar or no car.

10 hp. 1978 NHRA specs 318, small heads, small cam, and same pistons 140 hp for 2 barrel, 150 hp for TQ.
 
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No I'm not, it was brought up in general discussion by a couple of us car enthusiasts. I just don't hang out with mopar owners. I don't believe in mopar or no car.
Then maybe you should migrate to a GM or Ford chat room instead?
 
Then maybe you should migrate to a GM or Ford chat room instead?
I don't think so as I've seen many a member talk about the different cars that they own, what you think about that. A true car enthusiasts like's most any car do you.
 
I swapped a cast iron 340 4 barrel, hedman headers, dual 2.5 on my 318 in my 4 door 68 coronet. I felt a solid 20-25 HP in the butt dyno.
 
This was a bit more than a carb/ intake swap but it is on a 318. For MY purposes it was a huge wake up for that engine.
83 D250 2wd 727 3.23 and 32" rubber (235/85-16 10 ply). It ran more than decent for what it was and how it got used stock, as I bought it.
I swapped EQ heads into it, a new, stock replacement 360-2bbl cam, the 1.6 rockers that the magnum heads would normally come with, a regular performer (not rpm or air gap) a Carterbrock 625 carb, hooker super comp headers and true 2-1/2" duals all the way to the back bumper, std issue muffler shop turbos.
While I never had this on a Dyno, the difference before and after was more noticable than night and day.
That truck was overloaded more often than it should have been, and I towed a car trailer often, and when I did so it was always likewise overloaded for what it was.
More than one person who seen that truck thought I had to be lying when I told them it only had a 318. But it did.
And mpg went up from stock/ especially when I wasn't towing or hauling.

I sold that one to my cousin, and my son ended up buying that truck back some years later just for that engine. It's now in a 72 fury wagon
Other than the cam swap at around 133k miles (all work listed was done together at same time) the rest of the short block has never been apart/, pistons, rings, rod and main bearings, are the very same ones the engine left the factory with in 1983.

But everyone's wants for their vehicles are different. That 318 definitely exceeded my expectations.
Between the kid and I we have a complete rust free cab, doors, bed fenders and hood stashed away that we could put it back on the road... The original body has been crushed but he still has the rolling frame.
 
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Not one hp more until the rpm gets up to where the two-barrel got to be too small, say 3000 rpm. from there to around 4000/4200 maybe 15 hp.
So lets say about 15/(1100/100)= ~1.36 hp per 100 rpm, if you jet it right. Let's say you free up the exhaust and get 20hp, which is then 1.8hp per 100rpm.
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I know you didn't ask but;
But here's the problem I see;
with factory 2.76 gearing, and a TF trans, 4200 comes at about; 45mph in first, 76 in second, and 110 in third .
Whereas 3000 comes at; 32/54/and 79
Now don't hate me but, when you pull out to pass someone doing 55 in a 65 zone, and the trans downshifts; it will be too fast for first, and second will get you 3000 rpm, and the 4bbl just beginning to work., adding 1.36 hp per 100 rpm, approximately. Sooooo, don't hold your breath; By 60 the 4bbl is making plus 6.8hp, if your ignition timing is right, By 65, it is up to 13.6hp if you jetted it right.
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Best bang for the buck, off the line would be a modest increase in stall, I love the 2800.
Once moving the Second-best bang is gears to keep the rpm up. If the Rs drop below 3000, then you're back into 2bbl territory.
Third best is a free flowing exhaust and I'm going with small diameter headers to help get the exhaust out in a hurry, and the biggest stinking pipes you can hang under your hotrod, that still clear the speed-bumps.
Fourth best is a cold-air intake system; the engine cannot make power with 240* plus temperature under-hood air.
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I recommend a 2800 & 4.30 gears, 3.91s minimum, but 4.30s was nice., headers and dual 3"pipes all the way, a spreadbore carb on a spreadbore intake, extra spring pressure to go to at least 5200, so you can get into Second at not less than 3000.
I already did all this, and more than once.
When it comes to the intake, get one with small runners that match the heads; and I highly recommend a spreadbore. Your throttle reasponse will drastically improve on that sucked out 135/140 psi engine.
The trick with this combo is to get the stock cam to pull a lil longer at the top so that when it shifts, the Rs don't fall into the dumpster. The 1-2 shift split is 59% . So shifting at 4400, the Rs fall to 2600. Whereas shifting at 5000, I got 2950. Shifting at 5400, I got 3200.
Obviously, by 5000 the engine wasn't pulling much anymore, but the payoff was coming into second, at way better than 2600, lol.
A different winter I installed an A998 with the deeper low, and it did ok with 3.55s.
I gotta tell ya, the standard TF 1-2 split of 59% is the stock-cam 318's weak spot.. She works waaaaaaaay stronger with a 4-speed and 72% splits, which is what I ran most of the time.
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But if you really want to have a good time with a stock318, run the Commando A833 with the GVod as a splitter. The first three shift-splits average around 78.5%, and with 3.55s, top of Second-over will get you to 4350 (about peak power on the stock cam) =65mph; how much more perfect can it get? That's two no-lift electric shifts and one pull.
I'll tell you how much more perfect; when you get to 65mph you stuff it into 4-over, the Rs drop to 2240; just as if you had 2.76 gears.. and you pussy-foot right past the cops.
This was, by far, my favorite stock318 combo of all time.
I could sell it to you.
I never checked the fuel-economy, cuz it was my winter-beater; but 318s with 2.76s in A-bodies, are know to get low>mid 20s right? Not great, but not bad for a 60yo design that burns 87E10 all day long.
The thing is Stock 318s will easily pull 2.20 gears for 65= 1800 ...... and 2.76 gears x .78= 2.15, so 65= 1740; oh yeah that is totally doable on a TQ. oh and
BTW
with 3.55s, 55mph in Second-over = 3640, not too bad for passing.
With 2.76s, 55 in Second is 3630, you see what I did there with the math. Either of those will get you to 4400 = 66 mph at full Power., wave bye-bye to Grandpa as you blow by him.
I'll tell ya, I sure had a good time in those winters, with that splitter; 5000 x .785= 3900, which is well above the 3000 basement, where the 4bbl gave you nothing. That 3900 is about plus 12 hp over the 2bbl .... by my guess. That's getting close to the power increase that the next bigger cam would normally get you, but without any loss in power below 3000.

To give you something to look at, here is the Command /GVod with 3.55s, my favorite, expressed as roadgears.
10.97/8.56-6.82/5.32-4.97/3.88-3.55/2.77; Gv in bold
Those are all useable ratios but not sequentially. Typically, I shift; first/second/third/third-over/then fourth over, for a short fourth/deep overdrive.
But at WOT, I shift, the first four ratios; then whatever, usually 4od which then looks like a drop to 52%.

And here it is with 2.76s; with the 3.55s under it.
------- 8.53/6.65-5.30/4.13-3.86/3.01-2.75/2.15
10.97/8.56-6.82/5.32-4.97/3.88-3.55/2.77

That 5.30/5.32 ratio
will get you 65@4310, on a power-peak close to 4200.

I haven't found anything more versatile.

Ok bed time around here.
4.30 gears are way low for street driving. Drag racing, road racing with short straights and heavy towing, yes. For street the 3.55 gears are a good choice especially with an OD trans with a lower 1st gear ratio. The GM 700R4/4L60 or the Ford 4R70W come to mind.
These days the OEMs for trucks intended for towing install minimum 3.73 gears with 3.91 to 4.1 more likely. The highest tow ratings option 4.3 gears. If you tow only for holidays or drag the RV out to the lake lot in the spring and home in the fall, less gear is probably a better choice and downshift the trans manually. You will use way less fuel the rest of the year, and fuel economy when towing is never stellar. Now a work truck that tows regularly is different, get the gears.
A race car is different than a street car in a similar manner, intended use and the balance between street and track miles put on. If your intent is a snappy street driver for cars and coffee tours, 3.55 or 3.73 gears and an OD trans is the way to go.
Another consideration with gearing is the tendency to gear noise or whine. Some combinations are more prone to noise than others. The Cartech Books Ford Differentials has a list that shows which are more prone to noise and which tend to be quieter and why. 3.55 and 3.73 are better ratios than 3.5 and 3.7 in this respect. 3.89 or 3.91 should be quieter than 3.9. Ratios mentioned may be manufacturer specific.
 
4.30 gears are way low for street driving. Drag racing, road racing with short straights and heavy towing, yes. For street the 3.55 gears are a good choice especially with an OD trans with a lower 1st gear ratio. The GM 700R4/4L60 or the Ford 4R70W come to mind.
These days the OEMs for trucks intended for towing install minimum 3.73 gears with 3.91 to 4.1 more likely. The highest tow ratings option 4.3 gears. If you tow only for holidays or drag the RV out to the lake lot in the spring and home in the fall, less gear is probably a better choice and downshift the trans manually. You will use way less fuel the rest of the year, and fuel economy when towing is never stellar. Now a work truck that tows regularly is different, get the gears.
A race car is different than a street car in a similar manner, intended use and the balance between street and track miles put on. If your intent is a snappy street driver for cars and coffee tours, 3.55 or 3.73 gears and an OD trans is the way to go.
Another consideration with gearing is the tendency to gear noise or whine. Some combinations are more prone to noise than others. The Cartech Books Ford Differentials has a list that shows which are more prone to noise and which tend to be quieter and why. 3.55 and 3.73 are better ratios than 3.5 and 3.7 in this respect. 3.89 or 3.91 should be quieter than 3.9. Ratios mentioned may be manufacturer specific.
What mopar od would fit into a A body without doing sheet metal work
 
4.30 gears are way low for street driving. Drag racing, road racing with short straights and heavy towing, yes.
Depends if you really do any highway driving ? For intown I wouldn't mind 4.xx gears, right now I got 2.xx gears, I rarely shift into 3rd, I use my trans more like a 2 speed power glide with an OD. In second I can cruse 30-40 mph which is functioning like a 4-4.26.
 
The good thing about a stock 318 it's such a turd in power it's easy to gain 20-30%+ over stock your gonna feel it no matter the gears.
The LA 318 and especially the 1970's version had a carrot up its arse in the form of the camshaft. With the OEM cam any improvement possible with the upgrade to a 4V carb and manifold will be minimal. Changing to a 360 or 340 cam will greatly aid what the 4V will add. Keep the intake duration at 0.050" lift down to a max of 220°. Valve lift approaching 0.500" is desireable.
The valve curtain area is what controls the intake flow up to about 0.25D of the intake valve. Thus with a 1.72" intake valve, the valve has to open to more than 0.43" for the port to be the limiting factor. With a 1.88" valve that lift becomes 0.47". Shooting for 0.500" lift just gets you into port limited flow for a few degrees more, allowing faster intake velocity and better cylinder filling just prior to IVC. What does that mean? Better torque and drivability.
To get that lift on the intake may require changing the intake rocker ratio up by .1. Ben Alameda has a video where he discusses more power with smaller exhaust valves. The basic premiss there was a smaller exhaust allows larger intake valves. A NA engine has at best 14.7 PSI pushing air into the cylinder. At EVO the cylinder pressure is generally about 70 to 120 PSI. On blown nitro engines making 1,000HP or more per cylinder, that may be higher which requires much stronger lifters, pushrods and rocker arms due to the force against the exhaust valve head resisting it opening. Now those engines may be using 1.8" to 1.9" exhaust valves, which sounds big. But the volume of air and fuel crammed in and then combusted causes a huge volume increase by the heating.
The exhaust on our performance street or street and strip engines can function very well on small (by comparison) exhaust valves and/or a bit lower lift.
Newbomb the Turk and possibly a couple of others are liable to be triggered by this. To him/them I say, before your wood runs away with you, go watch and listen to what Ben has to say. It is a bit frustrating as I believe an outside door may have been open allowing traffic and helicopter noise in.
 
What mopar od would fit into a A body without doing sheet metal work
That I do not know. A manual maybe. Then there is a kit to install a GM 200 4R which is fairly narrow. The Grand National racers used them as that is what came behind the turbo V6, and they had them standing up to the 600+HP V6 engines.
 
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