273 Engine will not start - Ideas?

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Chuck Bushey

Chuck Bushey

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I have a 66 Barracuda w/ 273 2bbl - all restored. I had the engine running and seemed to be running well. I had to reset point dwell and timing which I did and the engine was running well and idling good afterward. The engine sprung a leak from a freeze plug after getting up to temp, which I replaced but it took me a while to get it done so the car sat for a long time. I have recently been trying to get it started and it won't start. I have fuel and good spark, the engine does try to start, pops several times but will not actually catch and run. I know it's not ballast resister because the engine never actually runs and then die. One other thing, I pulled the plugs and the left bank plugs had a glaze on them but the right bank did not - glaze appeared to be fuel residue (engine flooded several times trying to start). I cleaned them up but still same issue, will not start and run. Anyone have any ideas what I should be checking?
 
My first thought would be the carb is gummed up from sitting. Our shitty gas here in California will gum up a carb main jet in about 2 months.
 
You'll need some help. Try starting it by squirting some gas or flammable carb cleaner down the carb while cranking. Don't pour it, Just trickle or spray.
 
So I had my buddy here today to help me, and tried starting fluid etc. The pump rod pushes ample amount of fuel into the carb, however didn't try manually trickling gas in as we cranked. May try that next time. I'm using non-ethanol gas. We needed to pull the Barracuda out of the garage so that we could work on my 2019 300 doing and engine replacement - turns out they don't like going through big puddles of water. Ended up having to push the Barracuda outside in order to get the 300 into the garage. :(
 
EDIT LOL You and I were typing at same time

Get down to the basics, compression, fuel, spark. Maybe the cylinders are fuel washed. Maybe run a compression check on 2 or 3 easy to get to. Certainly throw a little fuel down the carb, and fuel been sitting may be a problem, make sure you use fresh fuel. If you have ethanol free fuel in your area, not bad to buy some of that, especially for lawn mowers and priming.

If you have a timing light, and have not played with timing, you can check the timing on the starter. This will tell you that the dist is working and timed as well as that the timing chain is in time.

Yet another thing, if wiring is a ?, is to simply jumper a lead from the battery to the coil +. Do not leave that there any longer than necessary for testing, and do not leave it connected while fiddling around getting ready. Prime the carb, connect your jumper, and crank it.
 
I am just wondering what changed? It ran good, it sat, now it won't start.
 
All wiring is new. Was hoping to actually get it on the road this summer.

Timing was rechecked and still right on the money 10 deg before TDC.

I'll try a compression test, since I am not familiar with the concept of fuel washed.

As for wondering what changed - that's my thought. Nothing has been done engine wise since it last ran. Been working on interior carpeting and now seats. Go Figure!
 
Shot in the dark...

Ignition wires in proper firing order?
 
Wires were not moved. Last time it ran was end of Feb '24 and put a fresh 5 gal of non-ethanol fuel in April after getting back from a trip. That was when I tried starting it after replacing the freeze plug - I let the freeze plug set up while I was gone on a trip.
 
Starting fluid is very useful here, may need to clean and dry the plugs again.

Sometimes when and engine is flooded starting fluid will help it fire up. Even though it has plenty of fuel in the cylinders.
 
toolmanmike said:
I am just wondering what changed? It ran good, it sat, now it won't start.
Click to expand...
Easy, IF IN FACT the points are working, then the gas from all the cranking, has washed the oil off the cylinder-walls and ring-lands, everything is dry, and there's not enough cylinder pressure to lite it off. Maybe even, the lifters have bled down. Maybe even the valves have seized in the guides.
However; on any SBM running a silent timing chain, you can never rule out a jumped timing chain, that often happens at shut down or during a hard start.

To the OP
so check your timing chain slack first, and if it seems excessive, then verify that your rotor is still pointing to the correct cylinder. If it is, then proceed;
Just put a teaspoon of oil in each cylinder and let sit for an hour, then turn the engine over slowly by hand, looking for a point if stiction, which could be a stuck valve hitting a piston, one turn, but don't power thru such a stiction. then if all is well, do it again.
Charge the battery. Fill the float bowl thru the vent. Block the choke open.
After another hour, pump the excess oil out of the cylinders by cranking it over a few revolutions. This will make a mess so do what you can, it's gotta come out. Finally put the plugs back in,
then; put a teaspoon of fresh gas down each primary bore, no more. Right after that, jump in, floor it, and Holding the carb wide open, twist the key, and keep cranking until it catches.
Except if you hear the tell-tale chicken-clucking sounds of valves hitting pistons then STOP.
During all this cranking, do not close the throttle, just hold it WOT. Do not stop cranking for at least 30>40 seconds, even as she is trying to sputter to life, just keep on cranking. You can't hurt a Dodge starter just keep on cranking, until she is truly running. As soon as she is in fact running, start bringing the Rs down slowly, keeping it at a high idle until the smoke clears, then try idling it.
Then hook the choke back up and verify that it works properly.

As to the chicken-clucking sounds; if you hear them, it's too late, the intakes are bent. Do a compression test just to verify, then pull the heads off.
BTW, you can't miss this sound. it the sound of money coming out of your wallet. It is unmistakable. The more clucks per second, the more more money is wafting on the wind.. It's almost never less than two; one on each bank. If you have more than two intake valves bent chances are slim that she will run, cuz the cylinders are pumping air back into the intake, upsetting the plenum, big time.
 
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What AJ said. I badly flooded and ring washed my 273 Dart when 16 years old. My dad dumped a couple of tablespoons worth of oil down the secondary's and had me crank with foot on the gas and she fired up. I'm sure AJ's approach isn't caveman style as I've been known to do. lol
 
you also might want to revisit the timing work or turn the distributor a bit while cranking and see what happens. this could also help you if the chain has jumped.
 
Check your oil level. If it's overfull you may have a stuck float. Gas running through piston rings giving ring wash and ending up in your oil.
 
Thanks everyone for your ideas. As an Engineer with an MBA I am usually very disciplined in my approach and to details and sequences. I should probably have mentioned more of the details that I have done with this car. This project has been in progress for over 20 years now. This car is number 505 in the Barracuda sequence. This engine was totally rebuilt although it only had 32k miles on it when I started the restoration and it ran like a top at the time - had a bad rear end in it.

So here are the current stats based on all of your suggestions, and the things I had previously done.
  1. Timing gears and chain were checked last fall/winter as at that time after the very first initial start up a coolant leak was found coming from the timing cover. The rebuilder had put a late model 273 timing cover on it instead of my original one and there was a bolt hole missing in the cover and the leak was coming from that hole in the block. Timing gears and chain are brand new, timing marks correctly aligned, and very tight.
  2. After the above fix the engine was started again and it ran fine, not perfect however. Dwell was a little off and timing wasn't set to specs. Points had been bench set previously but after installing distributor the dwell meter was below the lower limit so I adjusted it in the car. Dwell was then just under the high side which I was fine with. I then set the timing as 10deg before TDC and the engine was idling fine, but I had not adjusted the idle mixture screws to optimize things. After shutting it off I noticed another coolant leak, this time from a freeze plug on the front of the block. This was back in Feb. of this year.
  3. The freeze plug turned out to be one the rebuilder missed and hadn't replaced - it was all rusted out on the back side. At least I'm going to say he missed it and not having actually put a used one back in.
  4. That repair was done in March and the car sat for a month or so while I was on a trip to the northeast. Upon my return I then refilled the cooling system and was then trying to restart the engine which to-date I have not been able to restart.
  5. Things I have checked since starting this thread include
    1. Checking for spark at the plugs - plenty of spark and very healthy looking
    2. Compression check with the following results. #1 = 130, #3 = 135, #5 = 135, #7 = 130; #2 = 140, #4 = 135, #6 = 140, #8 = 130. I think those are all fine and there was no noticeable leak-by.
    3. Listened for AJ's chicken-clucking sound and nothing noted. Engine rotates freely both manually and via starter
    4. All Plugs are wet with fuel but not drastically in my opinion, so I know I'm getting fuel - may be too much but it has fuel
    5. Checked oil level and it is a little over full but the car is facing downhill so if there is fuel there it really isn't detectable. Tried smelling it but my sniffer isn't all that dependable these days - there may be a faint fuel odor there but can't really tell considering the other fuel smell in the engine compartment area.
  6. Timing was checked and statically all alignments are correct. While cranking we did try adjusting distributor position but no noticeable changes observed.
  7. So, like 66fs says, even though I rebuilt the carb previously, it was years ago, and it was running initially back in Feb, I may need to rebuild it again, but I am going to wait on that for now.
  8. I think first, when I have some extra hands, I will try the trickling of fuel while cranking based on what AJ and Kendog described.
  9. If that doesn't do it then I will probably pull the distributor and reset the points on the bench just in case they moved after the last adjustment I made in #2 above.
  10. Then lastly if none of that provides success then I will pull the carb and see what that will doe.
Thanks for all your inputs. I will come back and provide another update once I get through some of the above new ideas, but that may be awhile since I have been detoured to replacing the engine in my 2019 Chrysler 300 which now occupies my available garage space.
 
Chuck Bushey said:
Thanks everyone for your ideas. As an Engineer with an MBA I am usually very disciplined in my approach and to details and sequences. I should probably have mentioned more of the details that I have done with this car. This project has been in progress for over 20 years now. This car is number 505 in the Barracuda sequence. This engine was totally rebuilt although it only had 32k miles on it when I started the restoration and it ran like a top at the time - had a bad rear end in it.

So here are the current stats based on all of your suggestions, and the things I had previously done.
  1. Timing gears and chain were checked last fall/winter as at that time after the very first initial start up a coolant leak was found coming from the timing cover. The rebuilder had put a late model 273 timing cover on it instead of my original one and there was a bolt hole missing in the cover and the leak was coming from that hole in the block. Timing gears and chain are brand new, timing marks correctly aligned, and very tight.
  2. After the above fix the engine was started again and it ran fine, not perfect however. Dwell was a little off and timing wasn't set to specs. Points had been bench set previously but after installing distributor the dwell meter was below the lower limit so I adjusted it in the car. Dwell was then just under the high side which I was fine with. I then set the timing as 10deg before TDC and the engine was idling fine, but I had not adjusted the idle mixture screws to optimize things. After shutting it off I noticed another coolant leak, this time from a freeze plug on the front of the block. This was back in Feb. of this year.
  3. The freeze plug turned out to be one the rebuilder missed and hadn't replaced - it was all rusted out on the back side. At least I'm going to say he missed it and not having actually put a used one back in.
  4. That repair was done in March and the car sat for a month or so while I was on a trip to the northeast. Upon my return I then refilled the cooling system and was then trying to restart the engine which to-date I have not been able to restart.
  5. Things I have checked since starting this thread include
    1. Checking for spark at the plugs - plenty of spark and very healthy looking
    2. Compression check with the following results. #1 = 130, #3 = 135, #5 = 135, #7 = 130; #2 = 140, #4 = 135, #6 = 140, #8 = 130. I think those are all fine and there was no noticeable leak-by.
    3. Listened for AJ's chicken-clucking sound and nothing noted. Engine rotates freely both manually and via starter
    4. All Plugs are wet with fuel but not drastically in my opinion, so I know I'm getting fuel - may be too much but it has fuel
    5. Checked oil level and it is a little over full but the car is facing downhill so if there is fuel there it really isn't detectable. Tried smelling it but my sniffer isn't all that dependable these days - there may be a faint fuel odor there but can't really tell considering the other fuel smell in the engine compartment area.
  6. Timing was checked and statically all alignments are correct. While cranking we did try adjusting distributor position but no noticeable changes observed.
  7. So, like 66fs says, even though I rebuilt the carb previously, it was years ago, and it was running initially back in Feb, I may need to rebuild it again, but I am going to wait on that for now.
  8. I think first, when I have some extra hands, I will try the trickling of fuel while cranking based on what AJ and Kendog described.
  9. If that doesn't do it then I will probably pull the distributor and reset the points on the bench just in case they moved after the last adjustment I made in #2 above.
  10. Then lastly if none of that provides success then I will pull the carb and see what that will doe.
Thanks for all your inputs. I will come back and provide another update once I get through some of the above new ideas, but that may be awhile since I have been detoured to replacing the engine in my 2019 Chrysler 300 which now occupies my available garage space.
Click to expand...

Just went through this with the 73 Dart. Flooding to the point of would not run. Car sits for long periods of time. Second rebuild of carb and it is doing the same thing. Skunk gas smell of fuel, so off comes the carb again and I use the electric fuel pump to empty the fuel tank. So much rust in the tank I threw it away. The only thing I noticed was the seal on the gas cap was torn? Anyway, I rigged up a portable outboard motor tank for testing, until a new Tanks inc fuel system arrives. Hoping to find the time to rebuild the TQ and get it running today.
 
My 2 cents

Maybe it has good spark. Just because it popped a couple times doesn't prove it to me.
Buy an inline spark checker so you can see that. Charge the battery up too.
Popping also could be intake valve not shut when the spark fired.
10* BTDC at 600 rpm should be fine but not sure what engine work etc could have bumped the dist.
66 273 has a solid lifter cam. Valve adjustment is another possibility for not seating in time.
Later Timing chain cover. So what is being used as the zero reference for the timing? Or is the correct cover and tab now installed?

Since the plugs were wet, lack of fuel does not seem to be the issue. More likely the opposite.
Carb. Not understanding pushrod comment.
The small block fuel pump needs no pushrod.
In any event the question is whether the correct amount of fuel is being supplied for starting cold.
For starting fuel is drawn through the idle (and transfer ports) by the low pressure created when the pistons move down and the air flow through the carb bores is restricted by the throttles and the choke plate. We can add an additional shot through the accelorator pump by moving the throttle.
> If you see fuel squirt out of the nozzles when working the throttle, then there was fuel in the accelerator pump and that came from the bowl. When a car sits for a while the intake manifold dries out. A few extra shots are often needed so under vacuum there are enough vapourizing fuel to rewet.
> If the boosters are wet, then the fuel level in the bowl is too high. If the boosters are dripping the fuel level is too high. If its coming out the vent, its way way too high. A fuel bowl that is overfilled will contribute greatly to flooding.
 
Agree. Checking spark. I like to get "right to the coil" so to say. Use some sort of actual wire to temp. replace the coil secondary wire. Rig that to some sort of test gap. Crank the thing, and if you can, use a wide test gap, 3/8 to 1/2" The thing should make nice hot blue snappy spark, and if you crank it 2-3 seconds or more, should make nice rhythmic sound. And Crackedback pointed out on here, which I previously just never thought to suggest, is that you can check timing "on the starter"
 
Thanks everyone for all your inputs on this, now here is the latest status update and what I went through to get there. Starting at the end, let me say I finally got it running. I started out pulling everything out of the car and setting it up on the bench. Bench tested the entire ignition system excluding the switch. The test was done using the #1 plug wire with spark plug and had sufficient spark at the plug and appeared to be consistent. This was done with the new coil I had installed and the car previously ran on. I also tested with my old coil with the same results but decided to use the new coil when I put it all back in the car. Once all installed, car would still not start although it would fire a couple times but not catch and run. So things that were not included in bench test was wires, cap, and rotor. Changed cap back to my old original one, still no success. Replaced the Rotor, still no success. Also let me insert here that each time trying to start, engine would fire once or maybe twice but would not catch and run.

So then I suspected the switch as a possible problem and so check voltages pre and post ballast resistor with key ON (had done this before but checked again), voltages were what they should be - battery was 12.5v, pre ballast was 11.5v, post ballast was 6.5v, all considered normal. Post ballast resistor during cracking was 10.5v, again considered normal.

Moved to testing wires at spark plugs with inline spark tester (light kind). With each test, first spark was bright, second was less bright, and third was real faint - didn't make sense. All plugs did the exact same thing. Subsequent checks eventually got to the point of no spark at all. Purchased a spark gap tester and today plugged it directly into the new coil - no spark at all no matter what distance set at. Pulled out the old original coil and did the same test and had tremendous spark at the 10mm setting. So conclusion was that new coil went bad and was going bad slowly through all the testing. Proceeded to check wire resistance and found that average was about 7.0 on the 20k scale. Decided that those were fine so plugged everything back in turned the key and viola fired up immediately and ran.

Final conclusion is that the new coil went bad progressively until it finally failed completely. Who would have thought. Generally a coil was either good or bad, at least that's what I thought, not progressively failing. Needless to say it was really good to here the fish rumble to life again. Now to continue where I was 7 months ago - set idle mixture screws and idle speeds, etc..

Thanks everyone for all your inputs. Log this one as the odd scenario in case someone else has a similar problem.
 
When you used the spark tester at the coil did you just pull out the coil to dist. wire and put in between the coil and the spark plug wire to the dist. ? I am having issue somewhat like you had.
 
22dog22 said:
When you used the spark tester at the coil did you just pull out the coil to dist. wire and put in between the coil and the spark plug wire to the dist. ? I am having issue somewhat like you had.
Click to expand...
Yes, I stuck the tester directly into the coil in order to eliminate any possible issues. I had to make an adapter to be able to use it in the coil. The new coil had absolutely no spark. I disconnected the battery and distributor wires and reattached the old original coil and did the same exact test and had plenty of spark.
 
Glad ya got it! :thumbsup: I've been dealing with frustrating elec issues as well. As a "cheater" when checking for spark, I'll hook my timing light up to either a plug wire or coil wire and lay it on rad cradle pointed to where I can see it flash from inside the car. Or NOT flash lol
22dog22 said:
When you used the spark tester at the coil did you just pull out the coil to dist. wire and put in between the coil and the spark plug wire to the dist. ? I am having issue somewhat like you had.
Click to expand...

Chuck Bushey said:
Yes, I stuck the tester directly into the coil in order to eliminate any possible issues. I had to make an adapter to be able to use it in the coil. The new coil had absolutely no spark. I disconnected the battery and distributor wires and reattached the old original coil and did the same exact test and had plenty of spark.
Click to expand...
 
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