318 Build suggestions

[AJ/FormS]

You got me confused. You said"

but don't really need 2.02 valves since this car wont see 5000-6000

, I still want this to be streetable with the occasional local weekend 1/8th mile.

Then you start talking about heads and stuff.

Then suddenly you are into pistons and boring.
And then,

Just would like to know what some good recommendations might be with stock heads, rods and pistons.

And then

And maybe what a good build would look like using a stroker kit.

And finally,

300hp.

Yur all over the place, like a fly on a sugar-high!
Slow down, you're giving me the Heebe-Jeebies,lol.
My suggestion is to just get a 360 and be done with it.

But if you just have to have a 318, My recommendation is this;
Make it high compression; I mean really lots of cylinder pressure,like 185psi, and put a short-period, Hi-lift, solid lifter camshaft into her, and then let her buck. That will take alloy heads.
You will need a big Holley-type carb, a hi capacity oilpan, a high powered ignition, and a good tuner. A Commando 4-speed would help keep it on the pipe; but a hi-stall will launch better.
If you want a cheap, big-fun, all-round GREAT street combo, you can copy my 360 recipe. Coming from a 318, you will never look back.

 

[C2ndLTpigeon]

You got me confused. You said"



Then you start talking about heads and stuff.

Then suddenly you are into pistons and boring.
And then,

And then

And finally,
Yur all over the place, like a fly on a sugar-high!
Slow down, you're giving me the Heebe-Jeebies,lol.
My suggestion is to just get a 360 and be done with it.

But if you just have to have a 318, My recommendation is this;
Make it high compression; I mean really lots of cylinder pressure,like 185psi, and put a short-period, Hi-lift, solid lifter camshaft into her, and then let her buck. That will take alloy heads.
You will need a big Holley-type carb, a hi capacity oilpan, a high powered ignition, and a good tuner. A Commando 4-speed would help keep it on the pipe; but a hi-stall will launch better.
If you want a cheap, big-fun, all-round GREAT street combo, you can copy my 360 recipe. Coming from a 318, you will never look back.

The reason I was thinking about a 318 is I have another good complete core. Now as far as the 318 goes, I get compression needs to be raised. Would you recommend changing to 360 heads or cleaning and gasket matching stock Iron heads?

 

[AJ/FormS]

But if you just have to have a 318, My recommendation is this;
Make it high compression; I mean really lots of cylinder pressure,like 185psi, and put a short-period, Hi-lift, solid lifter camshaft into her, and then let her buck. That will take alloy heads.

Forget open chamber iron heads, you cannot make hi pressure with them.To run them with no squish, you are limited to about 160psi. And you cannot run much of a cam because the pressure drops rapidly with a later closing intake.
There are work-arounds for this, namely a hi-stall will allow the engine to spool up higher and get up on the cam quicker.But your engine will NOT spend most of it's life at WOT, nor at higher than 3000 rpm, so a hi-stall, for a streeter is, IMO, not the greatest idea. You will be waaaaaaay further ahead with pressure.
With closed chamber alloy heads and tight-Q, you can run up close to 200psi,still on pump gas. I have found 87E10 supports 185psi no problem.

Here's the deal; to make power requires rpm. There will never be a normally aspirated 318 that makes 300hp at 3000 rpm. Not a 4000, not at 4500. You are gonna have to spin it.
But don't lose sight of the big picture; 300hp with 3.55s, and 2.45 first gear, is a tire frier all thru it. That makes second gear your street favorite gear, and so 5800rpm in 1.45 second gear is ~75mph! Is that what you want?
Or do you want power at some lower roadspeed. To do that will require a lower rear gear? 4.10s will pull it down to 65mph. So now, you have spent money on a big TC, and the big rear gears,and the labor to install them, just to use that big cam in a low-compression 300hp engine, in a street-legal setting.
IMO, you will get better results with alloy heads, and hi-compression; and keep the current gears and stall.

To make pressure with a typical performance cam you might need ~11/1 Scr. With 318 cubes, your swept area is ~652cc, and that means your TOTAL chamber size will need to be DOWN around 65.2cc.
Allowing 8.6cc for a gasket, 5cc for eyebrows,and Zero-decks; that leaves just 51.6cc for the head chambers proper.

To see how this works, lets give the Wallace calculator a workout;
first, here is what a stock smog-era 318 might look like at 800ft elevation;
>Static compression ratio of 8:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.10:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 135.60 PSI.
Ica of 48*, VP of 113
read about VP here; V/P Index Calculation
notice the pressure and VP; this is typical of those smoggerteens. and you may know how that performance feels. Keep your eye on the VP.

>Next lets pump the pressure up with new pistons.
Static compression ratio of 9.1:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.06:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 160.88 PSI.
Ica still 48*, VP of 134
Check out the increase in VP; 134/113=plus 18.6%
I made no other changes, just cranked the pressure to the max for pump gas. This will feel similar to changing the rear gear by the same amount or from say 2.73s to 3.23s.. VP of 134 is pretty good. So now we are at the max for pumpgas and the stock cam with iron heads.

>Next; lets put some alloy heads on it and crank the pressure to the minimum for 87E10gas.
Static compression ratio of 10.2:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 9.02:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 186.78 PSI.
Ica still 48*, VP of 156 I made no other changes, just cranked the pressure to the max for pump gas and alloys.
156/113=plus 38%, so now like 3.77 rear gears. This is about the strongest your 318 can ever be,with the stock cam, and still burn 87 gas. Do you need 156vp? No. That is a total tire annihilator. A good target is over 140, anything under the stock 113 is kindof embarrassing.

These VP numbers are directly comparable between any size engines. So if you had a 1969 440Magnum with a VP of 156, then your stock-cammed 318 would feel similar to it, gear for gear, stall for stall, and pound for pound; from take-off to about 3000 rpm or a bit higher.
VP of 156 is a funtastic place to be.

>Next; lets change the cam to something a lil more sporty, with a new Ica of about 58*, or 3 sizes bigger than the stocker. This will get rid of some of that excessive VP and pick up a bunch of hp.
Static compression ratio of 10.2:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.49:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 172.41 PSI.
Ica of 58; VP of 134
See what happened to the VP? 134/156 means a loss of 14% and so from 3.77s, now we will need 4.30s to make that back. But as compared to the 113 of the stocker, we are still 134/113=18.6% plus

>next; lets pump the pressure back up
Static compression ratio of 10.8:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.98:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 185.69 PSI.
Ica of 58*, VP of 144 Badaboom! 144 is a great number!
See what's going on here? VP popped back up again. Now we are at 144/113=plus 27.4% over stock.

> next; lets max the cam out another 2 sizes, while simultaneously pumping up the pressure to maintain the 185ish psi;
Static compression ratio of 11.3:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.99:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 185.96 PSI.
Ica of 64*, VP of 138
VP dropping to 138/113= plus 22% over stock. This is meh, acceptable, and you can stall it up a lil if you have to, but l but I wouldn't go any lower.

>Ok one last time; lets put the Scr back to the nominal 8.0, with the big cam
Static compression ratio of 8:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.43:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 118.36 PSI.
Ica of 64*, VP of 88
This will feel like a 225 slanty up to about 3000rpm

Throughout it all, keep your eye on the Dcr. It likes to be up around 9.0 with the alloy heads.

Ica of 64* is a pretty big hydraulic cam for a 318. You will find that on a 340 cam; 268/276/114, which I absolutely do not recommend for your 318.
Ica of 58* might be on a cam two sizes smaller.

If you switch to a solid lifter profile, you might be able to make that same pressure with a lil more power.

>OK, just to be fair; howabout uncut X heads on a 318 short block with the flat-tops down .012
I get a total chamber volume of 2.4 +5 +6.8 ( .028 gasket) +72=86.2, and so the Scr will be 8.56, and

Static compression ratio of 8.56:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.86:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 129.38 PSI.
Ica of 64*, VP of 96/ quite weak
96/113=85%; so a loss of 15% compared to a stocker; which will require the same 15% more rear gear just to feel as strong as the stocker below 3000 rpm. So 1.15 x2.73=3.14 rounds to 3.23s and 3000 rpm will be around 25mph. There ya go, waiting for par again, VP of 96 absolutely sucks.

ok one more to be really fair, lets pump up the pressure for iron heads, to get 160 psi for best pumpgas.

Static compression ratio of 10.07:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.02:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 160.08 PSI.
Ica of 64*, VP of 119
So feeling like 119/113= plus 4.4% over the stock 318, or like 2.85 gears over the 2.76s

So there you have the open chamber iron heads optimized to 160 psi, with a VP of 119,(Ica of 64*) to burn 91 gas;
compared to the closed chamber alloys optimized for 87 gas and making a VP of 138.
138/118= plus 17%.. From 3.55s, the alloys will feel like 4.15s. Or you could say, to feel like 3.55s with the iron heads, you could run 3.55/1.17=3.03s with the the alloys; about same performance below 3000rpm.
However after 3000 the alloys will begin to kill the iron heads, cuz 185 psi over 160psi is a heckuva boost.

Ok so VP is a yardstick we can use to compare low-rpm performance, between any two engines. and it applies to 3000 rpm and down, sometimes creeping a lil higher depending on the two particular engines being compared. So if you are running a 3000rpm TC, this part of your powerband will never come into play.
However, if you have never driven an engine with 185 psi, and then you get a chance to? You will never go back to 140 or 150 or even 160.

Ok so now, you need to decide at what roadspeed you want the power to be, with what tires and rear gears. This will compute your rpm. From that you can chose the basic cam. From that you can generate the required Ica, then what Scr is needed to make 185 psi, with that Ica.
Then see how close you can get to it as cheaply as possible while maintaining a tight-Q. That means a minimum of machining. Which means pistons as close to the decks as possible right out of the box. If you can get to .012 below deck or higher,with flat-tops, then yur in business, The goal is to get the Q less than .040 but higher than about .028; Q being the piston to squish-pad clearance.

Once your Scr is thus established, you go back to the basic cam , and fine tune the selection, to work best with your final Scr, keeping in mind that with an automatic, you don't need perfection.

As for me; I like to run outta rpm right around 60mph, at the top of second gear with a 4-speed. So with 27 inch tires that requires a gear of 4.10s for 60=5900 Badaboom!
so I don't mind being a lil off cam, so I need a power peak right around 5500.

If you go this way, you would need, with;
3.55s, for 60=4900, and a power peak near 4600, or
3.73s, for 60=5200, and a power peak near 4900, or
3.91s, for 60=5400, and a power peak near 5100.

An increase of one basic cam size, translates to about a 200 rpm increase in the powerpeak. The stock 318 cam, with alloy heads might peak around 4400rpm
So now I take you back to

alloyheads;
Static compression ratio of 10.8:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.98:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 185.69 PSI.
Ica of 58*, VP of 144
Badaboom! 144 is a great number.

Ica of 58 could be on a
262/270/110+3/122comp/112power
@.050 this could be
262 less 46=216 on a lazy cam, to
262 less 42=220 on a faster cam, to
262 less 38=224 on a solid flat tappet.
There might be 7 or 8 hp increase in each cam.IDK

bedtime...

 

[C2ndLTpigeon]

Forget open chamber iron heads, you cannot make hi pressure with them.To run them with no squish, you are limited to about 160psi. And you cannot run much of a cam because the pressure drops rapidly with a later closing intake.
There are work-arounds for this, namely a hi-stall will allow the engine to spool up higher and get up on the cam quicker.But your engine will NOT spend most of it's life at WOT, nor at higher than 3000 rpm, so a hi-stall, for a streeter is, IMO, not the greatest idea. You will be waaaaaaay further ahead with pressure.
With closed chamber alloy heads and tight-Q, you can run up close to 200psi,still on pump gas. I have found 87E10 supports 185psi no problem.

Here's the deal; to make power requires rpm. There will never be a normally aspirated 318 that makes 300hp at 3000 rpm. Not a 4000, not at 4500. You are gonna have to spin it.
But don't lose sight of the big picture; 300hp with 3.55s, and 2.45 first gear, is a tire frier all thru it. That makes second gear your street favorite gear, and so 5800rpm in 1.45 second gear is ~75mph! Is that what you want?
Or do you want power at some lower roadspeed. To do that will require a lower rear gear? 4.10s will pull it down to 65mph. So now, you have spent money on a big TC, and the big rear gears,and the labor to install them, just to use that big cam in a low-compression 300hp engine, in a street-legal setting.
IMO, you will get better results with alloy heads, and hi-compression; and keep the current gears and stall.

To make pressure with a typical performance cam you might need ~11/1 Scr. With 318 cubes, your swept area is ~652cc, and that means your TOTAL chamber size will need to be DOWN around 65.2cc.
Allowing 8.6cc for a gasket, 5cc for eyebrows,and Zero-decks; that leaves just 51.6cc for the head chambers proper.

To see how this works, lets give the Wallace calculator a workout;
first, here is what a stock smog-era 318 might look like at 800ft elevation;
>Static compression ratio of 8:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.10:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 135.60 PSI.
Ica of 48*, VP of 113
read about VP here; V/P Index Calculation
notice the pressure and VP; this is typical of those smoggerteens. and you may know how that performance feels. Keep your eye on the VP.

>Next lets pump the pressure up with new pistons.
Static compression ratio of 9.1:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.06:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 160.88 PSI.
Ica still 48*, VP of 134
Check out the increase in VP; 134/113=plus 18.6%
I made no other changes, just cranked the pressure to the max for pump gas. This will feel similar to changing the rear gear by the same amount or from say 2.73s to 3.23s.. VP of 134 is pretty good. So now we are at the max for pumpgas and the stock cam with iron heads.

>Next; lets put some alloy heads on it and crank the pressure to the minimum for 87E10gas.
Static compression ratio of 10.2:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 9.02:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 186.78 PSI.
Ica still 48*, VP of 156 I made no other changes, just cranked the pressure to the max for pump gas and alloys.
156/113=plus 38%, so now like 3.77 rear gears. This is about the strongest your 318 can ever be,with the stock cam, and still burn 87 gas. Do you need 156vp? No. That is a total tire annihilator. A good target is over 140, anything under the stock 113 is kindof embarrassing.

These VP numbers are directly comparable between any size engines. So if you had a 1969 440Magnum with a VP of 156, then your stock-cammed 318 would feel similar to it, gear for gear, stall for stall, and pound for pound; from take-off to about 3000 rpm or a bit higher.
VP of 156 is a funtastic place to be.

>Next; lets change the cam to something a lil more sporty, with a new Ica of about 58*, or 3 sizes bigger than the stocker. This will get rid of some of that excessive VP and pick up a bunch of hp.
Static compression ratio of 10.2:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.49:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 172.41 PSI.
Ica of 58; VP of 134
See what happened to the VP? 134/156 means a loss of 14% and so from 3.77s, now we will need 4.30s to make that back. But as compared to the 113 of the stocker, we are still 134/113=18.6% plus

>next; lets pump the pressure back up
Static compression ratio of 10.8:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.98:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 185.69 PSI.
Ica of 58*, VP of 144 Badaboom! 144 is a great number!
See what's going on here? VP popped back up again. Now we are at 144/113=plus 27.4% over stock.

> next; lets max the cam out another 2 sizes, while simultaneously pumping up the pressure to maintain the 185ish psi;
Static compression ratio of 11.3:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.99:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 185.96 PSI.
Ica of 64*, VP of 138
VP dropping to 138/113= plus 22% over stock. This is meh, acceptable, and you can stall it up a lil if you have to, but l but I wouldn't go any lower.

>Ok one last time; lets put the Scr back to the nominal 8.0, with the big cam
Static compression ratio of 8:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.43:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 118.36 PSI.
Ica of 64*, VP of 88
This will feel like a 225 slanty up to about 3000rpm

Throughout it all, keep your eye on the Dcr. It likes to be up around 9.0 with the alloy heads.

Ica of 64* is a pretty big hydraulic cam for a 318. You will find that on a 340 cam; 268/276/114, which I absolutely do not recommend for your 318.
Ica of 58* might be on a cam two sizes smaller.

If you switch to a solid lifter profile, you might be able to make that same pressure with a lil more power.

>OK, just to be fair; howabout uncut X heads on a 318 short block with the flat-tops down .012
I get a total chamber volume of 2.4 +5 +6.8 ( .028 gasket) +72=86.2, and so the Scr will be 8.56, and

Static compression ratio of 8.56:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.86:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 129.38 PSI.
Ica of 64*, VP of 96/ quite weak
96/113=85%; so a loss of 15% compared to a stocker; which will require the same 15% more rear gear just to feel as strong as the stocker below 3000 rpm. So 1.15 x2.73=3.14 rounds to 3.23s and 3000 rpm will be around 25mph. There ya go, waiting for par again, VP of 96 absolutely sucks.

ok one more to be really fair, lets pump up the pressure for iron heads, to get 160 psi for best pumpgas.

Static compression ratio of 10.07:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.02:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 160.08 PSI.
Ica of 64*, VP of 119
So feeling like 119/113= plus 4.4% over the stock 318, or like 2.85 gears over the 2.76s

So there you have the open chamber iron heads optimized to 160 psi, with a VP of 119,(Ica of 64*) to burn 91 gas;
compared to the closed chamber alloys optimized for 87 gas and making a VP of 138.
138/118= plus 17%.. From 3.55s, the alloys will feel like 4.15s. Or you could say, to feel like 3.55s with the iron heads, you could run 3.55/1.17=3.03s with the the alloys; about same performance below 3000rpm.
However after 3000 the alloys will begin to kill the iron heads, cuz 185 psi over 160psi is a heckuva boost.

Ok so VP is a yardstick we can use to compare low-rpm performance, between any two engines. and it applies to 3000 rpm and down, sometimes creeping a lil higher depending on the two particular engines being compared. So if you are running a 3000rpm TC, this part of your powerband will never come into play.
However, if you have never driven an engine with 185 psi, and then you get a chance to? You will never go back to 140 or 150 or even 160.

Ok so now, you need to decide at what roadspeed you want the power to be, with what tires and rear gears. This will compute your rpm. From that you can chose the basic cam. From that you can generate the required Ica, then what Scr is needed to make 185 psi, with that Ica.
Then see how close you can get to it as cheaply as possible while maintaining a tight-Q. That means a minimum of machining. Which means pistons as close to the decks as possible right out of the box. If you can get to .012 below deck or higher,with flat-tops, then yur in business, The goal is to get the Q less than .040 but higher than about .028; Q being the piston to squish-pad clearance.

Once your Scr is thus established, you go back to the basic cam , and fine tune the selection, to work best with your final Scr, keeping in mind that with an automatic, you don't need perfection.

As for me; I like to run outta rpm right around 60mph, at the top of second gear with a 4-speed. So with 27 inch tires that requires a gear of 4.10s for 60=5900 Badaboom!
so I don't mind being a lil off cam, so I need a power peak right around 5500.

If you go this way, you would need, with;
3.55s, for 60=4900, and a power peak near 4600, or
3.73s, for 60=5200, and a power peak near 4900, or
3.91s, for 60=5400, and a power peak near 5100.

An increase of one basic cam size, translates to about a 200 rpm increase in the powerpeak. The stock 318 cam, with alloy heads might peak around 4400rpm
So now I take you back to

alloyheads;
Static compression ratio of 10.8:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.98:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 185.69 PSI.
Ica of 58*, VP of 144
Badaboom! 144 is a great number.

Ica of 58 could be on a
262/270/110+3/122comp/112power
@.050 this could be
262 less 46=216 on a lazy cam, to
262 less 42=220 on a faster cam, to
262 less 38=224 on a solid flat tappet.
There might be 7 or 8 hp increase in each cam.IDK

bedtime...

I appreciate all the info, a little confusing on technical side, but very important info.

 

[66fs]

Blah, Blah, Blah get a 360. Your 318 will be fine. Do you really think 22 cu in matter if the rest of the motor is the same as a 340? 300 hp is a nice street motor. How did those old stock class racers ever get into the 12s with a low compression 318 and open chambered heads? They knew what they were doing. You never need a 360, and you could not give me one. Truth is you need air flow. I used to put 360/340 heads on 318s and even a 273. They all ran great, and you don't need as big a cam with the better heads so everything is more streetable. If you are worried about compression, have any 360 1.88 intake valve heads milled .040 and .038 on the intake side to get your chambers to 64ccs, get a great valve job, call some cam companies and get their recommendations, and go for one. I personally use a 340 cam or an updated grind on a MOPAR lobe in the same range, 268 duration and .450 lift, for a 318. Get the right springs to go with the cam and don't forget to use a good double roller timing chain setup. You already have a large port dual plane intake, maybe try a 625 Street Demon carb. Talk to Justin, Moparofficial, about heads and recommendations. Talk to Hallifaxhops and get a good distributor with a quick advance curve. Use what you have, with a few parts you can have a great running car. No math needed.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Ok, so to clear up the confusion. I have a seperate 318 core that is from 1973 that I plan to build.
I would like it to be streetable with the occasional weekend fun.
Its nothing that has to be done in a hurry so im not worried about costs. As mentioned above it would be smart to weigh out the costs of everything vs getting a stroker and making it a 390. Just would like to know what some good recommendations might be with stock heads, rods and pistons. And maybe what a good build would look like using a stroker kit.
I am not trying to build a 1/4 mile car, but maybe achieve 300 HP? Something reasonable out of a 318

You will spend more money building a hi-compression 318 short block, than you will on building a 360short block. The KB107s are cheap, and you do NOT have to machine the decks,(mine came in .012 below the uncut LA decks, which wotks well with an .028 gasket.). And that means you will NOT have to machine the intake either. And everything fits like it was meant to. Saving all this money on machining, means you can spend it on a 360LA short block core.
Or you can spend it on a 5.9Magnum and probably just re-ring it, if that. Now you are saving the costs of boring and pistons.
And now you don't have to pump up the pressure; the 5.9M will make 300hp on it's 9.2 Scr or whatever it was. And I'm pretty sure it will do it with that Whiplash cam. And you will get your bottom-end torque back. And the Magnum heads will do everything the Whiplash can throw at it.
So with the 5.9M, And your performance parts off the current engine; you basically have everything you need, except an oilpan, and the basic rebuild kit; IF you even need it. So now you can spend some extra coin on procuring a good tight 5.9Magnum.

The 318Whiplash (SMC1326AL) at .050 is
213/226/109+5 / .512/.550 lift with 1.6 arms.
Hughes does not tell us on the Website, what the advertised might be, but they suggest a max Scr of 8.6 in iron heads, saying any more than that will require race gas. That points to some pretty robust cylinder pressure......
IMO;
To get the Thumping Sound, the overlap needs to be around 60*,
And to get at least the same VP as the stocker, which was 113 @800ft elevation, I chose an Ica of 56*,
Ok so plugging the numbers into the Wallace, She spits out the following;
266/286/109+5/124 compression/103 power/60 overlap/Ica of 56
IDK if that is accurate but its close enough.
Let's install that into a 5.9M @9.2Scr, and see what comes up...
I get;
Static compression ratio of 9.2:1.
Effective stroke is 2.97 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.80:1
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 153.97 PSI.
Elevation 800, Ica of 56*, V/P of 141
Badaboom!
right on the money; put a posi in the back, rebalance the TC, put gas in the tank, install some bigger tires, and drive it like you stole it. Oh wait, that 600 is gonna be your starter-carb ,lol.

Now, if my guesswork is wrong in getting the 266/286; I think, and am pretty sure, but guessing none the less; it will only be wrong in the right direction; there is plenty of room in the Dcr for me to be wrong, and if I am, the new numbers will only make it stronger; and still in the realm of pumpgas.

I can't think of a cheaper way for

I would like it to be streetable with the occasional weekend fun.

But hey, if you really want to stick with a 318,you already know what to do.

 

[ChargedDart75]

You will spend more money building a hi-compression 318 short block, than you will on building a 360short block.

Is this factoring in the cost of buying the 360 he doesn't have?

 

[C2ndLTpigeon]

360 is still going to need a rebuild, cam, bearings, rings, depending on condition of cylinders etc. Not to mention it would be better to have a 727 which I don't have, and a balanced TC due to the 360.

Already have a excellent 318 core, already have a left over gasket kit, rings and some other 318 components. I would just be looking a some heads, cam, and decking on the heads. Indio Motor Machine is 2 miles down the street.

Either way I am not in a rush to build this so its nothing I need the money up front to fund it all. Im still having fun with the 318 in the Valiant at the moment that just got done 3 months ago. Just thinking of the next build

 

[mr65cuda]

you guys running those speedmasters on small blocks can I use the stock rockers or do I have to get roller rockers

 

[volaredon]

I, for one, am so sick and tired of hearing "Scrap the 318 and go find a 360" some of us happen to like the 318.
Comparing the ones that I have had, the 360 hasn't done anything for me that a 318 wouldn't or couldn't, except that the 360s I have had have been alot thirstier at the pump / for really no noticeable performance difference.

 

[Dartswinger70]

318s are great because at one point they were less than a dime a dozen.. a 4 inch bore is ideal for any small block, and a 318 is "just about there" the reference of "getting a 340/360" is because 318 heads are smaller in terms of the ports also if you are going to take a 318 and put all the 340 360 top end on it it makes sense to use the bottom end also. There is a reason for ":get a 360" it isn't because the 318 is "better" Its ok to go with a 318 because thats all that is left but lets not get into touting the engine as better. the LA 318 was never a performance engine.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I, for one, am so sick and tired of hearing "Scrap the 318 and go find a 360" some of us happen to like the 318.
Comparing the ones that I have had, the 360 hasn't done anything for me that a 318 wouldn't or couldn't, except that the 360s I have had have been alot thirstier at the pump / for really no noticeable performance difference.

As to thirstyness; I beg to differ;
I have built a 360 that went 106 in the qtr, at 3650 pounds, and made 32 mpgUSg on the hiway at 85=2100rpm, and as a general average did better than any 318 I have ever had or modded.

I'm glad you like 318s.
But quit feeling hard-done-by; if you like 'em that's fine. That's an opinion and there is no argument against an opinion of liking something.
I am NOT a 318 hater; they have a their place in the Mopar hall of fame. But given a choice between using any SBM for a performance streeter at a 3600pound load, ......................
I will always chose a 3.58 stroke. And the primary reasons (not opinions) are;
1) more effective stroke left over after the intake valve closes, at any given Ica. This leaves more stroke with which to build pressure, and pressure is power. And
2) about 15% more VP at any given Dcr. and that means a stouter bottom end and therefore a lower stall or less starter-gear, is possible. And
3) more rpm, lots more rpm, before the power dives. This allows you to leave it in a particular gear just a lil longer. And
4) there are several more

Straight Hi-way mileage, build for build, depends mostly on the guy tuning it.
In a given vehicle, cruising at say 65mph, requires a certain amount of horsepower, period Whether you do it with a 318 or a 360 is almost moot. Since the 360 is ~13% bigger, you can easily run less gear for the same performance. Mopar gears are stepped about 10% apart. So running a 318 with 3.55s is about 65=2900, and running a 360 with 3.23s is about 65=2640; so right there is a headstart to economy. It has been stated many times that a reduction of 10% rpm is good for an increase in economy of 5%; so from say 20mpg in the 318 to 21 in the 360. That gives you one full mpg to give up to friction in the 360. Build for build, IMO, that will never happen.
The 360 running 3.23s, build for build, will hang with the 318/3.55s no problem.
As for hiway fuel-economy, if you build a 360 for economy, it will kill your 318 that's built for performance, and IMO, in the zero to 60 contest is not gonna give much up if anything, to the 318, after you equalize them on the starting line; cuz the 360 is gonna have a serious tire-spin problem.
Think about it;
there is nothing a performance 318 can do, build for build, that a 360 can't do better. Build for build, and gear for gear, a 318 can edge out a 360 in hiway economy; mostly because of internal friction , in dragging slightly bigger diameter rings, slightly further up and down the bores. And maybe you can find one or two other legitimate reasons but those will be small contributors.
But then, build for build and gear for gear, that same 360 will kill the 318 in performance.

Here's my opinion; "I, for one, am so sick and tired of hearing"
how sucky a 360 is compared to a 340, never mind the little brother-318.

 

[66fs]

318s are great because at one point they were less than a dime a dozen.. a 4 inch bore is ideal for any small block, and a 318 is "just about there" the reference of "getting a 340/360" is because 318 heads are smaller in terms of the ports also if you are going to take a 318 and put all the 340 360 top end on it it makes sense to use the bottom end also. There is a reason for ":get a 360" it isn't because the 318 is "better" Its ok to go with a 318 because thats all that is left but lets not get into touting the engine as better. the LA 318 was never a performance engine.

There is nothing wrong with a 318 engine. No one claims a 318 is better, just sick of 360's are better. I'll give you a clue about 360's. They also were not High Performance engines. They were high torque low rpm engines to push C Body cars around. I used to buy them, scrap everything but the heads and rods. I'd use the heads on 318's and 273's. The only reason for the High Performance 360 was, they discontinued 340's and had to drop compression for emission reasons. It was the last man standing at that point. Just like your HP 360, if you do the same for a 318, heads cam and other goodies, you will get the same hp, just at a higher rpm and less torque. No big deal. Air flow, seal the cylinder, tune it. I sold my last 360's decades ago to make room for my 340's and 273's.

 

[Dartswinger70]

There is nothing wrong with a 318 engine. No one claims a 318 is better, just sick of 360's are better. I'll give you a clue about 360's. They also were not High Performance engines. They were high torque low rpm engines to push C Body cars around. I used to buy them, scrap everything but the heads and rods. I'd use the heads on 318's and 273's. The only reason for the High Performance 360 was, they discontinued 340's and had to drop compression for emission reasons. It was the last man standing at that point. Just like your HP 360, if you do the same for a 318, heads cam and other goodies, you will get the same hp, just at a higher rpm and less torque. No big deal. Air flow, seal the cylinder, tune it. I sold my last 360's decades ago to make room for my 340's and 273's.

I agree he 318 is a good engine and I have one sitting in the corner of the garage, but I wouldn't start there for a build. If I had no engine at all id be looking for a magnum 360 crate engine. ( there are things I dont like about 360, it would have to be changed to internal balance for instance...) I have always had 340s so I am biased, but I do acknowledge that the same things that can be done to a 340 can be done to a 318. Cam, pistons etc, how would one run 2.02s in a 318?, it would require an over bore, how far over can you take a 318 last I knew and by the book it was .040 over which makes it 4.031 or something like that.

 

[AJ/FormS]

3.91 plus .040= 3.95

At street power levels, the bore size difference from 318(3.91) to 360(4.00) =.090=2.3% means very little. The same cannot be said for the stroke difference; 3.315 versus 3.58 =.265=8%

The thing about a streeter, is it's a two-gear deal. No sane streeter is gonna be topping out third gear on a regular basis if he wants to keep his license and or car. So you might as well gear it to top out in second at around 65/75 mph, and make sure your brakes can scrub off speed in a hurry. So build for build, the 360 can hit more bases with fewer dollars spent.
the bases are;
rpm to the top of second gear
rpm at kickdown into first at say 32 mph
cruising rpm @ say 65mph. If you cannot cruise your streeter comfortably for a couple of hundred miles, then you really don't have a streeter. I don't care what anybody says, my car cruises at 65=2240, and I have cruised two days one way with no fatigue.
Ok so, choosing that comfortableness is a highly personal matter, but typically, I would say, that is, IMO, 2200 is comfortable, and 3000 is not. So the median is about 2600. For me, that is still too high, but everyone has an opinion.
Now, to cruise 65=2600 with 27" tires will require about a 3.23 gear. These will get you 65=2640 at zero-slip/ say 2750 at 4% slip, on the tach.
So that sets the stage for everything else.
the following is for an automatic equipped,3600pounder , all loaded up; With 3.23s,
cruising at 32 mph is then 1880 in Second gear, and at KD will be 3180 at zero-slip/ perhaps 3500 on the tach.
And top of Second will be 60=5240@zero-slip/perhaps 5770 on the tach.
So from that, we know the power-band has to be from 3500 to 5770 =2270.
Next; 300hp is a nice street power level, I wouldn't build for any less. And by 380hp, most of it is going to tirespin, so unless your plans include serious traction improvements, IMO, 380 is overkill. So then a happy median is 340hp.
A 360 will do that with ease; all stock internals, stock iron heads even, and maybe a 224 to 230 cam @155/160psi cranking pressure.
What's the 318 gonna take?
Well by the time you are done, the only things still 318 will be the crank,the block, and maybe the rods........ cuz you will have 340-ized the entire top end. So is it still a 318? Yeah sure like milk is ice cream.
I don't get it.

Back in about 1968, Ma put the 440-4bbl top end on a 383 with a 440 cam and thus was born the 383Magnum, so I guess this 340-ized 318 could be called a 318Magnum.
Oh but you love your 318, but for some unfathomable reason, you rail on the 360 which is just a stroked 340. Everybody loves a stroker...... unless it has a 3.58 stroke; somehow that is unacceptable.
I don't get it

Back in the early 2000s, when my car was fresh, I used to take it to carshows and drive-in meets, and such. And I would get an earful of "oh you shouldda built a 340; those were fast"........
Now, my 360 is a 4.04 x3.58= 367, so I switched to calling it a stroked-340, and that was the end of poo-pooing the 360. Now it was all "oohs and aahs".
I don't get it.

I have had several 340s some of which I still have and use as doorstops, cuz the 340 is "just a bored out 318/ destroked 360/ a tweener."
The 318 is and forever will be; "the little engine that thinks it can." It can hit each of the bases with a specific build, but it can never hit them all, nearly as well as a 360 can, in a 3600pounder.
The average power from 3500 to 5770 will never be, build for build,comparing apples to apples, as high as the 360. And the 360 will cost waaay less to make it happen. With KB107s and 63cc chambers, it falls together at over 10.5/1 Scr, all ready for that 230/110 cam; almost tight-Q and all. Just bore it, stuff it, and screw it together, & d-o-n-e.

But yakno,
from a 360 to a 408 is plus 13.33%; oou, everybody loves a stroker.
from a 383 to a 440 is plus 14.88%; oou, everybody loves a stroker.
from a 318 to a 360 is plus 13.21%; Alex, I'll take 318 for the; oou, I like my 318 factor, cuz it will do everything the 360 cannot do, Alex;
says the Ostrich with his head in the sand.......
I don't get it.
A streeter is not a drag racer. You might be able to build a competition 318 with unlimited rpm..... But that ain't a streeter, married to a specific streetable rear gear.
Oh sure put some 3.91s on it and you can have fun. But how far can you cruise at 65=3400/3500
Oh sure you might be able to squeeze out say 20mpgs with 2.76s, and a small enough cam to stay out of reversion,...... but you'll need to supercharge it to get that up to 340 hp.
I don't get it.

Don't even get me started on
if you have a 4-speed........build for build and gear for gear; your teener is out classed on every front, hanging on with desperation.

 

[rumblefish360]

Wow! Keep it simple!

Go .060 over for 327 (?) cubes (Though I would rather go .090 and get 332 cubes) and zero deck the block. Use the speed master heads and a .038 X 4.1 gasket to get roughly 9.6-1 comp ratio, cam as needed (aid go with a solid tappet & adjustable rockers, but a Hyd. & stock rockers will work well on a mellower engine) to suite the rpm range your driving in, top with a rpm AG and a 650. Added headers, I’d spring for the 1-3/4 imo 2–/2 exhaust.

 

[273]

Think about it;
there is nothing a performance 318 can do, build for build, that a 360 can't do better. Build for build, and gear for gear, a 318 can edge out a 360 in hiway economy; mostly because of internal friction , in dragging slightly bigger diameter rings, slightly further up and down the bores. And maybe you can find one or two other legitimate reasons but those will be small contributors.
But then, build for build and gear for gear, that same 360 will kill the 318 in performance.

Couldn't you say that for a 440 vs a 360 so with that logic all small blocks are waste of time since even a 383 is bigger than a 360.
I agree with you 360 definitely have the advantage over 318 but I also agree that this instance that people shouldn't build a 318 when they obviously want too and peeps keep in chiming in build a 360 instead of helping them with their goal is too much.

 

[rumblefish360]

Couldn't you say that for a 440 vs a 360 so with that logic all small blocks are waste of time since even a 383 is bigger than a 360.
I agree with you 360 definitely have the advantage over 318 but I also agree that this instance that people shouldn't build a 318 when they obviously want too and peeps keep in chiming in build a 360 instead of helping them with their goal is too much.

Well that’s AJ for ya! Mr. Anti-318.
I’ve called him out on this a few times by he is just a hater and anti 318. If you’re building a 318, don’t ask AJ for ****. He will just disrespect the 318 & you by default if not out right.

He ain’t helpin a MoPar brother out, he don’t care.

And your right! By his logic, he is a hypocrite, but what else is new with the build it bigger or go home guys.

 

[toolmanmike]

Well that’s AJ for ya! Mr. Anti-318.
I’ve called him out on this a few times by he is just a hater and anti 318. If you’re building a 318, don’t ask AJ for ****. He will just disrespect the 318 & you by default if not out right.

He ain’t helpin a MoPar brother out, he don’t care.

And your right! By his logic, he is a hypocrite, but what else is new with the build it bigger or go home guys.

Has AJ ever built a Teen? I don't have the time to read through all his posts to find out.

 

[rumblefish360]

Yup

 

[RustyRatRod]

I've been debating on building another 318 for my 73 valiant. My current setup is a 74 block STD bore, stock heads with a Hughes Whiplash 318 cam with an Eddy Airgap RPM intake topped with a performer 600CFM. Ignition is stock plugs with a Pertronix electronic distributor.
Transmission is a fresh rebuilt 904 with B&M shift kit stock converter. Rear end is fresh rebuilt 8 1/4 with open 3.55 gears.

Now don't get me wrong I love the idle of the whiplash cam, and it is defiantly a whole different engine since I changed out the 7 1/4 that had 2.76 gears to 3.55's.

My biggest regret was not doing some port work, or gasket matching the stock Iron heads to the eddy manifold. But i've also thought about aluminum heads but don't really need 2.02 valves since this car wont see 5000-6000 RPM, I still want this to be streetable with the occasional local weekend 1/8th mile.

Indy made their indy X heads which came with 1.92 intake valves and were newly casted heads, but after talking with them they are looking for a new vender to make them for them again so they don't for see them for 8-10 months.

Looking to see what people suggest for a good set of heads new? or doing work to stock heads? Also what about cam specs? any suggestions?

I wanted a 340 but after watching UTG's video the other day about the 318 I would really like to take my time and try to build a good performing 318, without breaking the bank on a stroker kit or spending tons of money on over priced 340's (as much as I would love to get my hands one one.)

I really LIKE the 340 cam. A lot. If you really want a great running 318, get the compression up, give it a good intake a nice size carburetor some headers and stick the 340 cam in it degreed. It will haul ***. Keep it simple.

 

[Bewy]

Doesn't matter if it is a 318/360 Mopar or a 302/351 Ferd. The principles involved are the same no matter what brand is on the valve cover.
The bigger engine will have more tq & for some people that may be very important. The smaller engine can probably can be made to make the same hp as the bigger engine, but is likely to cost more in parts because higher rpms are needed.

 

[AJ/FormS]

If you guys are railing on me for post #37;
clearly, that was in response to another poster.

 

[mygasser]

if the longer stroke is important and the bore difference is not so much a concern then a stroker kit for the 318 seems the obvious answer.
neil.

 

[RustyRatRod]

If you guys are railing on me for post #37;
clearly, that was in response to another poster.

I hadn't even looked at your post. I was talkin to the OP. It's not all about you. I know that's a difficult concept for you and your 367 to grasp. lol