318 Builds

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LJS30

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Hey gentlemen is it just me or does it seem like more of us are doing 318 builds the last couple of years or so? I've been a Mopar enthusiast for a long time and for awhile it seemed like the attitude was "junk the 318 and go 360". Now it seems like many of us are building good 318's now. Am I correct to any extent?
 
I have noticed the same trend. IMO, the economy and shortages of play money have made lots of folks reconsider the ole' 318. All the time they spent in the shadow of the 340's and 360's means that they are still plentiful and cheap. It seems that everybody has 2 or 3 laying around. I've noticed more /6 builds as well.
 
Nothing wrong with building a 'teen . Just gotta make the top-end breathe with a cam , some head work (or a head swap) , and a decent intake manifold / small 4 Bbl .

Going to a 340 or 360 virtually requires a trans swap ,and does require a motor mount bracket swap on the right-side .

I'm going to warm the 'teen in my daily driver 1972 Coronet by adding an Edelbrock S.P.-2.P. ( just waiting to hear back from Slant Six Dan on it , whenever he gets setup at his new place ) , a small Holley (a contribution from a friend ) and a new cam & lifters ( most-likely from work ) .

Car's already got a Trans-Go'ed 904 (30,000 on it since the rebuild) and some 'flyer gearing (2.71's) in an 8.25" diff .
 
The engine had allways been unrated in a big way and seen as simply a people mover and never anything more than a people mover. It doesn't help that most people jump into a teen with 340 parts and expect it to go fast. Proper combonation and parts selection is needed for any engine, even more so with a 318.

Think about this. If a Ford 302 or a Chevy 327 can get out there and compete, why can't a 318? While bigger is allways easier and better to make power with, it's not allways the cheapest route to enjoy a car with. I can see spending another $200 or $300 on a 360 or $700 on a 340 when you allready have an engine waiting right there for ya.

It's so easy to sit behind a computer and say "Get a bigger engine" "Go big block" "You should have done this, got that, changed this"

For the purchase price of the bigger engine, I can have the block done and ready to go.
Theres allways someone ready to argue and be an *** over what you build, point out sometihng in the favor of bigger engine. Theres never a shortage of ***' and on line has a ton of them.
 
LH23H2R said:

Going to a 340 or 360 virtually requires a trans swap.
Click to expand...

If the engine replacing the 318 is an external balanced engine, then a B&M flex plate is all that is needed.

The extra power from the larger mill can kill the trans due to years of service never seeing more than 250 hp. The normal 904 beind later year 318's is up to task for "MILDLY" built engines. Putting a strong built engine behnd a standard 318 trans is not the greatest idea. The trans should be "Worked up." for this.
 
I think that More & more People are just looking for a nice cruiser V-8 car. I don't plan on racing just cruising around town & to the occasional car show. The economy definitely has a lot to do with it too I'd bet.
 
I agree that for a cruiser, it's a great mill. Once you start sprinkling performance parts on it and add a cam, it's all over with.
 
318= cheap buildup, which I am all about. 350 horse 318 is an easy build and plenty of fun on the street or strip. Our abodies are not that heavy, so a 318 can move them around pretty well.
 
I'm with Rumble. It's easy for everyone else, not just online either, to sit and say do this, do that. You should get this and that and these heads, yada yada yada. But this stuff isn't cheap, and a lot of people aren't making what they were if they are lucky enough to have their job still. I think a lot of people are wanting to do more with less. I kind of wish I kept my 318 just so I could tinker with it and maybe put it back in my car one day for fun.
 
The problem with the 318 (and mopars in general) is this. Everything is old, and the tolerances are all over the place, so you have to overhaul and deck and all that good stuff to get any real power.

The aforementioned smallish (302/5.0) Ford motors don't have the pistons .100 in the hole from the factory, and, frankly, they came with better parts (namely heads) from the factory, so its not an apple to apple comparison. Hell, Explorers with 302s had factory heads that flow right there with the RHS stufff for the Mopars, and they have a better combustion chamber too.

In short, by the time you spend the money on an overhaul and all that jazz, the only difference between building a 318 and a 360 ends up being the price of the core motor, and a core 360 is what, $50.00 more than a 318? Pistons, rings, bearings, machine work, etc. are all pretty much the same price for a 318/360. So when the project is finished and you're comparing hp/tq - $$ spent, I think already having the 318 laying around is going to have proven to be a false savings.

Further, a 360 is going to be more fun as a street engine, because its going to make power lower in the RPMs, so there's more power in a useable range and less gear required.

All that said, horsepower is predominantly in the cylinder heads, then the intake/camshaft, then the shortblock. The RHS heads have gone a long way to being a bolt-on for getting a ton of power out of a decent stock shortblock 318, with a lot less hassle and $$$ than doing a full rebuild on something, so I think it is easier than it has been in the past.

Further, I can totally see the appeal of building a "giant-killer" 318. The problem is that they don't often end up really slaying any giants....


Steve
 
I am actually weeks (hopefully) from doing just this. As soon as we finish with the interior, my son and I will be tearing into the 318 that came with the car. It has already had some work to it...bored .03, mildly worked 302 heads, aluminum Weiand intake, Edelbrock 4 brl carb . The slugs still sit down in the hole, but I intend on correcting that issue when we pull it apart. I also intend on degreeing the cam to see what it has and possible get something bigger. I don't know exactly what has been done with the heads, but will figure out what I want to do after I get a look at them. The car is for my 16 year old to drive back and forth to school (and hopefully a job soon) so don't need (or want) a rocket under the hood.....for now!
 
I like my 318 so far I have beat a 68 el co with a 327 muncie 4spd, a new Honda si dohc vtec, a BMW 330i... With the engine listed in my Sig in a couple months I'm going to put 302 heads on a edel air gap int, 650 dp, and a bigger cam
 
I used a 318 for my build,for one I had never built a motor and it was cheap and second if I screwed up I would'nt have been out to much.Just went 30over mopar 340 cam aluminum intake 600cfm holley.Don't run to bad for my first build if I do say so.
 
The aforementioned smallish (302/5.0) Ford motors don't have the pistons .100 in the hole from the factory, and, frankly, they came with better parts (namely heads) from the factory, so its not an apple to apple comparison. Hell, Explorers with 302s had factory heads that flow right there with the RHS stufff for the Mopars, and they have a better combustion chamber too.

.



Further, I can totally see the appeal of building a "giant-killer" 318. The problem is that they don't often end up really slaying any giants....


Steve[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree with both of these statements, having played with 302 fords for 30 years and owning a explorer 5.0. The BIG problem with 302 fords is they don't have any torque, ant the stock heads limit the power over 5000 rpm, which is where they need to rev. My budget 318 moved my 3200# Dart to easy 13.40's, much better than my 5.0 '85 5spd roller cam "high output" 2800# 15 sec 85 LX went. I took down many nitrous and modified mustangs with my 318. And don't get me wrong, I have owned several mustangs.
 
I would like to build one because I have had four vehicles with stock 318's including my current daily driver 87 5th ave. and they have all been suck *** slow.
 
LX guy said;

In short, by the time you spend the money on an overhaul and all that jazz, the only difference between building a 318 and a 360 ends up being the price of the core motor, and a core 360 is what, $50.00 more than a 318? Pistons, rings, bearings, machine work, etc. are all pretty much the same price for a 318/360. So when the project is finished and you're comparing hp/tq - $$ spent, I think already having the 318 laying around is going to have proven to be a false savings.
Click to expand...

I do not agree. He allready has the 318 engine and getting a 360 is a loss of money and you only have a dead stock 360 and a lighter wallet. So $50 difference it is not.

The only difference in the engines I have noted is price of pistons.

Otherwise, FREE 318 = no money spent

Money spent of 360 = loss of money

IF... IF .. you did not have ethier engine, then the 360 would be a better purchase.

Theres no argument on the performance differences and potentail.
 
66dartman said:
I have to disagree with both of these statements, having played with 302 fords for 30 years and owning a explorer 5.0. The BIG problem with 302 fords is they don't have any torque, ant the stock heads limit the power over 5000 rpm, which is where they need to rev.
Click to expand...

So... stock headed 318s have torque and like to rev over 5000 RPM? LOL

66dartman said:
My budget 318 moved my 3200# Dart to easy 13.40's, much better than my 5.0 '85 5spd roller cam "high output" 2800# 15 sec 85 LX went. I took down many nitrous and modified mustangs with my 318. And don't get me wrong, I have owned several mustangs.
Click to expand...

First, you're comparing a modified 318 to a particularly bad version of the stock 5.0. There are many many many 318s in stock form that have wet dreams about running in the 15s.

Second, the 85 5.0 is not typical of the 5.0 Mustangs at all. Especially the TBI LX model. 87-up gets better heads, better cam, factory dual exhaust, etc. With a stock 64cc head, the Mustang gets 9-9.25:1 compression. The 318 gets what? 7.8:1?

Further, I didn't say the Explorers were fast, I said the ones equipped with GT-40P cylinder heads have great heads. Mopars don't have an equivalent cylinder head lying around in junkyards, and even if the 308 was close, they're all cracked anyway.

Example:
A buddys Mustang 92 LX coupe that I helped build: bone stock GT-40P Explorer long block with mustang STOCK camshaft, EFI, etc, 11.90s @ 112mph. $700 factory junkyard engine! Makes 290+ rwhp, 330 ft-lbs of torque.

This is where I got the idea to build my junkyard 5.9 Magnum that's in the dart. The magnum has cost more, and has an aftermarket cam and cylinder heads, but makes about 40 more rwhp than his 5.0 and even more torque. Plus its cooler!

I have had many Mustangs also. None of them, even in their most basic bolt on stages would have ever been beaten by a car running 13.45.

A 5.0 5-speed with gear, slicks and underdrive pulleys will run high 12s if you can drive. My stock blocked 5.0 with a Zex kit went 11.20s.

HOWEVER:
I can see the appeal of building a 318. They have been derided for so long its fun to turn it into something, but $$/hp its a more expensive and trickier deal than building a Ford 5.0, simply because the 318 is compression and cylinder head handicapped in a way that the 302 is not. Thats without even getting into the hydraulic roller vs. flat tappet thing...
 
rumblefish360 said:
I do not agree. He allready has the 318 engine and getting a 360 is a loss of money and you only have a dead stock 360 and a lighter wallet. So $50 difference it is not.
Click to expand...

Well, I said dollars/hp the 318 is a bad deal, not that you couldn't build the 318 cheaper if you already have a 318.

OK, so what does a core 360 engine cost? $300?

So, build a 318 and a 360 very similarly (rings, bore, bearings, hone, equalize, etc).

Now try to get the 318 to make the same horsepower and torque as the 360 for the price difference ($300). Short of a used nitrous kit, it ain't gonna happen.

If you're going to build a hot-rod motor and sweat $300, you're not going to be happy when you're done.
 
I think if you have a roller block and a good set of 302's you could build a cheap little motor that would have torque enough for a light car and plenty of HP to play with. I have a 318 in my Barracuda right now and it's the sweetest motor I have ever had in that body. It doesn't take much to get them to run, and they are bullet proof..well almost! I've built 283's 350"s and one 305 and the 318 is a much better design. Now I'm not talking LT1's but basic chevys. I'm putting together a 360 now, the teen is 12 years old and I had a roller motor just waiting to be used. If I didn't have the 360 I would have put together a 318 stroker using a 360 crank. Now that might be fun!
 
I'm building my 318 because it's original to my car with 63,000 miles. It was parked because of a blown head gasket in 1989. I don't need it to build torgue or spank other cars at stop lights. It's going to be a daily driver that hopefully will get some decent fuel mileage for a 68 model. I want it to be reliable more than anything. Cost is also a factor.
 
LXguy said:
Well, I said dollars/hp the 318 is a bad deal, not that you couldn't build the 318 cheaper if you already have a 318.
Click to expand...
Ah, no ya didn't. Y a might have ment it.......
OK, so what does a core 360 engine cost? $300?
Click to expand...
Doesn't really matter since some ethier want to build it or they do not have the money to go out and start reinvesting.

Now try to get the 318 to make the same horsepower and torque as the 360 for the price difference ($300). Short of a used nitrous kit, it ain't gonna happen.
Click to expand...
We all know this aint gonna happen. NEWBIES EXEMPT. Even mentioning this is just proving me right, first post. Thanks Your closer to a 318 hater now. :violent1:

If you're going to build a hot-rod motor and sweat $300, you're not going to be happy when you're done.
Click to expand...
One my take this as, if you aint got the moeny to mess around, don't build a teen and pretend.
So, if someone here wants to do something on the cheap, they shjouldn't? This is what I'm getting.

Whats wrong with hopping up a 318? If your answer is bla bla bla 340, bla bla bla 360, of for which we all know the answer, then dont bother answering. Thanks anyway.
Click to expand...
 
just put it this way ford sucks and this is from a ford tech a bone stock 318 in my demon did 14.08 in the quarter with nothing more than a set slicks
 
rumblefish360 said:
The engine had allways been unrated in a big way and seen as simply a people mover and never anything more than a people mover. It doesn't help that most people jump into a teen with 340 parts and expect it to go fast. Proper combonation and parts selection is needed for any engine, even more so with a 318.

Think about this. If a Ford 302 or a Chevy 327 can get out there and compete, why can't a 318? While bigger is allways easier and better to make power with, it's not allways the cheapest route to enjoy a car with. I can see spending another $200 or $300 on a 360 or $700 on a 340 when you allready have an engine waiting right there for ya.

It's so easy to sit behind a computer and say "Get a bigger engine" "Go big block" "You should have done this, got that, changed this"

For the purchase price of the bigger engine, I can have the block done and ready to go.
Theres allways someone ready to argue and be an *** over what you build, point out sometihng in the favor of bigger engine. Theres never a shortage of ***' and on line has a ton of them.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. For some reason the Chevy 327 and the Ford 302 came with the reputation of being excellent performance platforms while the 318 was considered "junk" by all enthusiasts alike. I recall even in the early days of FABO some members had the negative attitude towards the 318.
 
LXguy said:
So... stock headed 318s have torque and like to rev over 5000 RPM? LOL



First, you're comparing a modified 318 to a particularly bad version of the stock 5.0. There are many many many 318s in stock form that have wet dreams about running in the 15s.

Second, the 85 5.0 is not typical of the 5.0 Mustangs at all. Especially the TBI LX model. 87-up gets better heads, better cam, factory dual exhaust, etc. With a stock 64cc head, the Mustang gets 9-9.25:1 compression. The 318 gets what? 7.8:1?

Further, I didn't say the Explorers were fast, I said the ones equipped with GT-40P cylinder heads have great heads. Mopars don't have an equivalent cylinder head lying around in junkyards, and even if the 308 was close, they're all cracked anyway.

Example:
A buddys Mustang 92 LX coupe that I helped build: bone stock GT-40P Explorer long block with mustang STOCK camshaft, EFI, etc, 11.90s @ 112mph. $700 factory junkyard engine! Makes 290+ rwhp, 330 ft-lbs of torque.

This is where I got the idea to build my junkyard 5.9 Magnum that's in the dart. The magnum has cost more, and has an aftermarket cam and cylinder heads, but makes about 40 more rwhp than his 5.0 and even more torque. Plus its cooler!

I have had many Mustangs also. None of them, even in their most basic bolt on stages would have ever been beaten by a car running 13.45.

A 5.0 5-speed with gear, slicks and underdrive pulleys will run high 12s if you can drive. My stock blocked 5.0 with a Zex kit went 11.20s.

HOWEVER:
I can see the appeal of building a 318. They have been derided for so long its fun to turn it into something, but $$/hp its a more expensive and trickier deal than building a Ford 5.0, simply because the 318 is compression and cylinder head handicapped in a way that the 302 is not. Thats without even getting into the hydraulic roller vs. flat tappet thing...
Click to expand...



are you having trouble letting go? because the more you post the more i see the "ford guy" coming out lol besides who cares, i thought this was a thread on 318 builds, not a debate on ford 302 hp/$$ vs. 318 hp$$. oh,

and for the record i have seen many of sick mustangs too (sick meaning slow, for the upgrades they had, snd still running slow), with small bumpity cams, gears, slicks etc. barely manage high 8's in the 1/8th. theres no sense in downing a 318 when there's some sick puppies in the 302 world too. there both mouse motors... BUT thru the world of after market, the 302 will be a better runner with bigger better upgrades, heads, stroker, etc....

however it IS very likely that a mild junk headed 318 in a a body could run with or outrun a mild 5.0 mustang that has better factory heads, compression, etc. its not that hard to get a decent 318 into the low 9's in the 1/8th which is mild or STOCK mustang territory.

besides, mustangs are like assholes, everbodys got one. be different own a mopar lol....... that would be a good slogan for a new challenger commercial :D
 
I ain't going to argue with you LX, you know it all anyway. Ay MY track, which is high altitude, the mustangs need blowers or turbos to run. That 85 LX I had was not the TBI version, I know my mustangs as well. Underdrive pulleys are not going to get you 11's here. Just because there is more aftermarket crap for a 5.0 doesn't mean in stock form it is better than a 318. Factory parts vs factory parts, a 318 will outrun a 302 ford. This is coming from a guy who has 3 fords! I have been swapping around 302 fords for a long time, but then again I don't know anything. In the 80's there was NOTHING available for fords and that is what I'm saying, we had to run what was available.
 
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