318 Jetting

-

73Swinger18

✱ⓈⓌⒾⓃⒼⒺⓇ
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
578
Reaction score
217
Location
Camarillo, CA
Here is what I'm working with...
  • 318 bored 0.020
  • Original heads with larger valves (1.88/1.60)
  • Sealed Power flat top pistons
  • Classic Holley 600 (vacuum secondaries)
  • Weiand Stealth intake manifold
  • Comp Cam 20-223-3 (XE268H)
  • Hedman long tube headers with dual Thrush mufflers
  • Timing: 22 initial, 34 mechanical, 54 with vacuum advance
I was running 66 jets in the primary and secondaries, a 5.0 PV, and brown secondary spring. It ran well in this condition. The plugs (Autolite 63) had good coloring around the base ring with no heavy soot, but no color on the porcelain. The timing mark was right at the bend. I have been wanting to verify the jetting with a vacuum gauge and killing the engine with some runs then reading newly installed plugs. I got that chance today. I drove with a vacuum gauge hooked up in the car and changed jets to maximize the vacuum reading at a steady 50 MPH. I also killed the engine at this speed and read the plugs. I ended up with 72 jets in the primary and picked up two inches of vacuum. For the secondaries, I did some WOT engine runs, read the plugs and ended up with 76 jets. The porcelain now has a nice light color and the base ring looks good. I also put the lightest (white) spring in the secondaries. So now I have 72 (pri) and 76 (sec) jets. This is a big increase from the factory 66/67 jets, but I figure it's due to the carb being a bit big for the displacement and the modifications. It runs a lot better now. Really pulls hard with no bogs or hesitation. Does this sound like I'm in the ballpark? I was hoping someone out there has a similar setup to compare. Thank you!
 
Last edited:
You didn't say anything about compression.
>72s sound about right for a 360 with that cam. They might be a tad fat in the teener. Time will tell. I ran 68/76 with a 10.5PV when I had one on my 367 with a 270/280/110cam running 10.9Scr, and aluminum heads.It was too small a carb, and I moved up to a 750DP, and never looked back.
>It is customary to have a 6 to 8 step difference front to back.I think you are just outside the ballpark.
>At steady-state 50 mph, you should not be on the mainjets yet. You should still be on the transfers.What gears are you running, or what is your rpm at 50?
I would try dropping down the primaries one or two steps, and bringing the PV in a little sooner in compensation. This will decrease your fuel useage anytime you are just tooling around. Ima thinking 68s,and up to a 10.5PV for power, maybe 8.5 for economy.You will know when the PV to MJ ratio is too lean by the sag in the roll-on. I can't feel too rich. I just lean it out til I feel the sag and then put a little fuel back in. To speed up the PV selection, I install a PV plug in there and block the secondaries shut. Then a roadtest with a vacuum gauge. Run it up to past the neutral vacuum peak, in second, and cruise there for a few seconds to stabilize things.Try and keep the Rs under 3000. Then roll into the throttle while keeping one eye on the gauge.Hit her just hard enough to drop the gauge to 14 and wait for the sag. No sag, start over, this time hit her to 12 inches. Still no sag? start over and hit her to 10 inches. Oooooo that might be it! Slow down start over, this time at 11 or 9 inches vacuum. When you find the sag, grab the closest PV you have just under the vacuum of the sag. And another roadtest.Fine tune as required.If the sag comes at 14, then the MJs are too small. Increase them 2 numbers and start over. The sag should occur just below your typical easy driving style.That way you will rarely engage the PV, and economy goes up. If the sag does not occur until well below 10, then the MJs are too fat. I like the sag to occur around 11 inches with a typical street cam. Then I put in just enough PV to eliminate it. You may like something different.The ratio is somewhat flexible.
> Then when you have got this sorted, you will want to try a WOT run, still with the secondaries blocked.To keep the speed down I do this in second gear. And I begin after the TC is locked, and after the Neutral peak vacuum. Then,at WOT, I buzz her up to 4000 and gently roll out of the throttle. If the car surges ahead during the rollout, she is lean.Make a note of it. Slow down to 3500 and buzz her up to 4500 this time, and again gently roll out looking for the surge.If you feel it, make a note of it, and so on, in 1000 rpm steps to say 5500.
Now; I can't feel rich, so if you felt no surge at any time, then you are either perfect or rich. So whatcha gonna do? Well I would drop 2 numbers on the MJ and repeat the test. And I would continue this way,until I felt the surge, and then put 1 or 2 numbers back in.
>Finally; if the MJ so established is different from the previously established one, you have a choice to make. A) alter the previous ratio of MJ to PV, to use the new MJ size or B) Alter the PV channel restriction to use a smaller MJ, or C) run this set-up and let the other be what it will be.
> as to the secondaries. Just add 6 to 8 numbers to whatever Primary MJ you have established, and hit the race track. Final selection will be by maximizing the trap speed.
>Make sure your T-port sync is properly set up;too much initial timing, messes up the sync . If the t-ports dry up at idle, then the mixture screws end up carrying the load and then the low-speed system stays fat, and that don't help economy. The mixture screws should just be idle fuel trims, as the t-ports slow down.They should fall in the range of 3/4 to 1.5 turns from lightly seated, and should produce a wide range of from smooth to rough idle quality. If they seem lazy, it is probably because the t-port sync is off. You will have to remove the carb and look. Readjust as required and start over.
>Economy starts at the rpm where the vacuum peaks. If you cruise under that rpm, the engine is likely to be fat from what is going on inside the intake manifold, and it may be impossible to tune out. You can change the timing or the jetting,which may alter the absolute vacuum reading but not where it peaks;That is a function of the compression, the cam, and the cam-timing.
>So if your cam vacuum-peaks at 2200rpm, then that is a good place to cruise at. If at 2400, then that is a good place.And etc. You want the low-speed circuit to be lean there, so get the T-port sync set first, and adjust the idle speed with timing and bypass air.Then give her the cruise timing with the vcan. I have had tunes where the engines liked in excess of 52* of cruise timing at 2400 rpm. Some liked 62*. Course you cannot get that with any factory-type dizzy, it's hard enough to get high 40s.So just give her all you can, and see what she does with it.
 
Last edited:
You didn't say anything about compression.
72s sound about right for a 360 with that cam. They might be a tad fat in the teener. Time will tell.
>It is customary to have a 6 to 8 step difference front to back.I think you are just outside the ballpark.
>At steady-state 50 mph, you should not be on the mainjets yet. You should still be on the transfers.What gears are you running, or what is your rpm at 50?
I would try dropping down the primaries one or two steps, and bringing the PV in a little sooner in compensation. This will decrease your fuel useage anytime you are just tooling around. Ima thinking 68s,and up to a 10.5PV for power, maybe 8.5 for economy.You will know when the PV to MJ ratio is too lean by the sag in the roll-on. I can't feel too rich. I just lean it out til I feel the sag and then put a little fuel back in. To speed up the PV selection, I install a PV plug in there and block the secondaries shut. Then a roadtest with a vacuum gauge. Run it up to past the neutral vacuum peak, in second, and cruise there for a few seconds to stabilize things.Try and keep the Rs under 3000. Then roll into the throttle while keeping one eye on the gauge.Hit her just hard enough to drop the gauge to 14 and wait for the sag. No sag, start over, this time hit her to 12 inches. Still no sag? start over and hit her to 10 inches. Oooooo that might be it! Slow down start over, this time at 11 or 9 inches vacuum. When you find the sag, grab the closest PV you have just under the vacuum of the sag. And another roadtest.Fine tune as required.If the sag comes at 14, then the MJs are too small. Increase them 2 numbers and start over. The sag should occur just below your typical easy driving style.That way you will rarely engage the PV, and economy goes up. If the sag does not occur until well below 10, then the MJs are too fat. I like the sag to occur between 10 and 11 inches with a typical street cam. Then I put in just enough PV to eliminate it. You may like something different.
> Then when you have got this sorted, you will want to try a WOT run, still with the secondaries blocked.To keep the speed down I do this in second gear. And I begin after the TC is locked, and after the Neutral peak vacuum. Then,at WOT, I buzz her up to 4000 and gently roll out of the throttle. If the car surges ahead during the rollout, she is lean.Make a note of it. Slow down to 3500 and buzz her up to 4500 this time, and again gently roll out looking for the surge.If you feel it, make a note of it, and so on, in 1000 rpm steps to say 5500.
Now; you can't feel rich, so if you felt no surge at any time, then you are either perfect or rich. So whatcha gonna do? Well I would drop 2 numbers on the MJ and repeat the test. And I would continue this way,until I felt the surge, and then put 1 or 2 numbers back in.
>Finally; if the MJ so established is different from the previously established one, you have a choice to make. A) alter the previous ratio of MJ to PV, to use the new MJ size or B) Alter the PV channel restriction to use a smaller MJ, or C) run this set-up and let the other be what it will be.
> as to the secondaries. Just add 6 to 8 numbers to whatever Primary MJ you have established, and hit the race track. Final selection will be by maximizing the trap speed.
>Make sure your T-port sync is properly set up;too much initial timing, messes up the sync . If the t-ports dry up at idle, then the mixture screws end up carrying the load and then the low-speed system stays fat, and that don't help economy. The mixture screws should just be idle fuel trims, as the t-ports slow down.They should fall in the range of 3/4 to 1.5 turns from lightly seated, and should produce a wide range of from smooth to rough idle quality. If they seem lazy, it is probably because the t-port sync is off. You will have to remove the carb and look. Readjust as required and start over.
>Economy starts at the rpm where the vacuum peaks. If you cruise under that rpm, the engine is likely to be fat from what is going on inside the intake manifold, and it may be impossible to tune out. You can change the timing or the jetting,which may alter the absolute vacuum reading but not where it peaks;That is a function of the compression, the cam, and the cam-timing.
>So if your cam vacuum peaks at 2200rpm, then that is a good place to cruise at. If at 2400, then that is a good place.And etc. You want the low-speed circuit to be lean there, so get the T-port sync set first, and adjust the idle speed with timing and bypass air.Then give her the cruise timing with the vcan. I have had tunes where the engines liked in excess of 52* of cruise timing at 2400 rpm. Some liked 62*. Course you cannot get that with any factory-type dizzy, it's hard enough to get high 40s.So just give her all you can, and see what she does with it.
Wow! Thanks for all the info. I will have to read it a few times and try it out. I have 2.76 gears and at 50 MPH, I am at 2,000 RPM. I did notice the sag right around 6 inches. Before I read your message, I threw in a 5.0 PV from the 6.5 originally installed and it feels even better. Really pulls much harder. I reverified the transfer slot and I'm just over a square opening with the mixture screws out 1.75 turns. Thanks again for the good info.
 
Wow! Thanks for all the info. I will have to read it a few times and try it out. I have 2.76 gears and at 50 MPH, I am at 2,000 RPM. I did notice the sag right around 10 inches. Before I read your message, I threw in a 5.0 PV from the 6.5 originally installed and it feels even better. Really pulls much harder. I reverified the transfer slot and I'm just over a square opening with the mixture screws out 1.75 turns. Thanks again for the good info.

This is not going to work;
Those 2.76s have got to go.You have way too much cam for those.And not enough tire.
Well it kindof depends on your stall, but here is the deal;
That cam has not yet vacuum-peaked at 2000, so you will be too deep into the throttle at 50 mph, and so yes, you will be on the mains, and sucking gas bigtime. Do not try to select a MJ your way, there is too much ugly stuff going on inside the intake, and the throttle will be too far open.
That cam wants at least 3.23s with high compression and a loose TC, and up to 3.91s with low compression and a tight TC. Typically it wants 3.55s with a 2800. Yes the Rs at 60 mph will go up, but the throttle opening will go down. And your tires are too short and they are probably gonna be way too skinny once this is sorted out.
Furthermore
If your screws are out 1.75, then the T-port sync is still off. Close them up to 1.0 and increase the transfer fuel by cranking in the curb-idle. Then back off the timing to get the idle speed down. Then adjust the idle air to make the engine happy.Then fine tune the idleAFR by tweaking the screws leaner from 1.0,or the transfer exposure, or the bypass air. You may have to try several different timings to give the engine what she wants.

If the 5.0PV charged harder than the 6.5, then the MJ is too big. Think about it. The 5.0 is slower to open than a 6.5, so you delayed the fuel delivery.And it ran better. So reduce the MJ size and try again, with the 6.5. Personally,I would try 68s and a PV in the 8.5 to 9.5 range This is just rearranging the curve, and leaning it out some, this is all gonna come out in the wash if you follow my outline in the earlier post, with the roll-in/roll-out procedure, looking for the sag.
But I'll tell you a secret;You can spend a bunch of time on this, and then when the 3.55s go in,you get to do it all over again.And if you swap out the TC,there might be some more changes.
If you insist on keeping the 2.76s, be advised that,that cam will buz you up to 65=6100......still in first gear. And if you still have the stock 73 teener TC which stalled at 1700ish with that old teener, now with the big cam, it may stall at a lessor rpm. So your car, while the motor is strong through the midrange, is gonna lose time at the start-line and suffer from low average power during the run,since it is a one gear run with small cubes. You may be embarrassed up to 35mph by a stock teener with 4.30s and if he has a small 4bbl,and a free-flowing exhaust, he may put a hurt on you all the way to 55/65;car for car.
I cannot imagine a good reason to keep the 2.76s with that cam, in North America. Well I can, but that would be kindof silly; Going hammer down at 45 mph, just above peak torque...... into first gear.Yeah she'll be quick from 45 to 65. You got money on that race? If no, the 2.76s gotta go.
Please, I built a combo like this once, a long time ago. It had great passing power, but man was it hard to get her up to speed.
My neighbor, in about 78 had a 71 Demon and asked me what was the quickest way to go fast with his teener. Four-tens I said. He hired me to set them up. You cannot imagine the smile on his face after the maiden voyage. He went on to other mods as time went by, but nothing compared to the day those 4.10s went in. Teeners and 4.10s are a match made in heaven. With your combo you have extended the operating range of your teener probably 1500 rpm. Your power peak is probably around 5400rpm, and she will hang on to at least 5800/6000. So if you wanted to max out the Rs at 65 mph, in second gear(1.45ratio) with 275/60-15s, you would need 4.88s, at least. You would need a traction aider and an LSD, cuz the starter gear of 11.96 would put "massive" amounts of torque into the axles, and they're not going to be able to hook on their own.Even with that stock TC, I can see 1600/1700ftlbs into the axles. With the 4.10s I see this reduced to about 1400 ftlbs. So with 4.10s I would suggest more TC, say a 2800 if you really wanna have fun. By 2800 your combo might be making 65% of peak torque, which might be 350 ftlbs, so 228ftlbs.(I'm guessing). And that would put 2300ftlbs into the axles. Now that's getting somewhere. What are you putting in now? I'll guess less than 850. So the 4.10s and the 2800TC will nearly triple the output into your rear axles. Can you say HANG-ON!

I did something like this to my winter motor back in the early 2000s. It was a totally hi-mileage 318 with a small TQ, some 360 valve springs shimmed up, and headers. Then I added the 4.30s, an A999 with a 2.74 low gear, and a 2800TC. Now a stock teener puts out its peak torque very low, right around 2800 or a little earlier. And it might make 320ftlbs. But lets say she was a lil tired and was down to 85%. With all that gearage she might still put down 3200 into the rear axles. I can tell you this much: that teener was the funnest combo I ever had.
Long story short, those 2.76s have got to go, and the stock TC too. Or else the cam, cuz it is sacrificing huge amounts of performance from idle to, what was it? 34mph did I say. I think so.

Ok got to go to bed now, I work tomorow.
 
Last edited:
Well, I had some more time to tune it today and ended up with 68 (pri) and 76 (sec). 50 MPH at 2,000 RPM was not enough. I did some more runs up to 3,500 RPM in second gear and noticed it was much too rich. After all was said and done, I took it for a 50 mile drive and she got 15 MPG. The 2.76 gears will stay in for a while. I do not race this, just mainly cruise on the freeway. I don't take it over 5,500 and in first gear that's about 55 MPH. It's got a 2,000 stall in it, so it's not that bad. I was worried I'd have to rejet after a gear change and am not looking forward to that. It's an all day event alright! Thanks again.
 
Well, I had some more time to tune it today and ended up with 68 (pri) and 76 (sec). 50 MPH at 2,000 RPM was not enough. I did some more runs up to 3,500 RPM in second gear and noticed it was much too rich. After all was said and done, I took it for a 50 mile drive and she got 15 MPG. The 2.76 gears will stay in for a while. I do not race this, just mainly cruise on the freeway. I don't take it over 5,500 and in first gear that's about 55 MPH. It's got a 2,000 stall in it, so it's not that bad. I was worried I'd have to rejet after a gear change and am not looking forward to that. It's an all day event alright! Thanks again.
IMO
You have the wrong cam,for your application. You would be way better off with 2 sizes down; more torque where you need it, power comes on sooner, mpgs near or into the 20s, and can use a lesser stall.
The XE268, in the teener, is just riding the horsepower peak at 5500.With a regular 727/904 it will want to be shifted at 6300, to drop into second at 3730, this being about 1100 over the peak to 1470 under; this for rapid transit. This cam is typically very soft on the bottom unless your compression has been seriously bumped up. It wants 10.5ish with iron heads.
So what this means, is this cam is only working for you in the midrange, and it is consuming a lot more fuel than it needs to, for the pleasure it is giving you.
It sounds like you will be letting the automatic shift itself most of the time, and I'm guessing you're gonna let it shift at 3000 or less. This means every time it drops into the next gear, it will be into the converter,basically burning gas to make heat instead of propelling the car. Lost fuel that never made it to the pavement.Lost energy.
Below the vacuum peak the late closing intake is wreaking havoc in the intake.This generally makes this area richer than it needs to be.Some of this fuel may not get burned,lost energy.
During the 52*overlap period at low rpm, the header is yanking raw unburned fuel across the top of the piston, and burning it in the pipe, or pushing it into the atmosphere,again,lost energy..
The early opening exhaust valve is dumping cylinder pressure that could have been used to propel the vehicle; there is still plenty of energy in it; now lost.
The XE268 is not a low-rpm cam; why is in your engine?

On the other hand, if you are happy with 15mpgs, then I am sorry to have rained on your parade.
 
Last edited:
IMO
You have the wrong cam,for your application. You would be way better off with 2 sizes down; more torque where you need it, power comes on sooner, mpgs near or into the 20s, and can use a lesser stall.
The XE268, in the teener, is just riding the horsepower peak at 5500.With a regular 727/904 it will want to be shifted at 6300, to drop into second at 3730, this being about 1100 over the peak to 1470 under; this for rapid transit. This cam is typically very soft on the bottom unless your compression has been seriously bumped up. It wants 10.5ish with iron heads.
So what this means, is this cam is only working for you in the midrange, and it is consuming a lot more fuel than it needs to, for the pleasure it is giving you.
It sounds like you will be letting the automatic shift itself most of the time, and I'm guessing you're gonna let it shift at 3000 or less. This means every time it drops into the next gear, it will be into the converter,basically burning gas to make heat instead of propelling the car. Lost fuel that never made it to the pavement.Lost energy.
Below the vacuum peak the late closing intake is wreaking havoc in the intake.This generally makes this area richer than it needs to be.Some of this fuel may not get burned,lost energy.
During the 52*overlap period at low rpm, the header is yanking raw unburned fuel across the top of the piston, and burning it in the pipe, or pushing it into the atmosphere,again,lost energy..
The early opening exhaust valve is dumping cylinder pressure that could have been used to propel the vehicle; there is still plenty of energy in it; now lost.
The XE268 is not a low-rpm cam; why is in your engine?

On the other hand, if you are happy with 15mpgs, then I am sorry to have rained on your parade.
It was between this and the XE262H. If I were to do it all over again, I would have got that one for the better mileage and torque, but I'm having fun with what I've got. It still gets up and moves real good believe it or not. I've been leaving my tires on the street. Maybe if I keep it up, my 7.25 rear end will blow up and I can get some new gears.
 
That's how it went for me too
First the 292/292/108 cam, then a 270/280/110, now a 276/286/110.
I liked the little 270 the best. It was not as powerful up high, but it had a lot more closer to idle. And I got insane gas mileage with it..
In contrast, the 292 was insane up top, drank gas like a fish inhales water, but was waaay to soft where I did most of my driving.
And the 276 is a nice middle-of-the-road solution for me. Great power, pretty good torque, reasonable mileage, revs to 7200 all the time, and pulls hard from nearly idle, but really hard from 2000 up
It's still too much cam, but the alternative is more cubes
 
-
Back
Top