318 rebuild Bonehead mistakes/misses and questions

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JeffreyLee

JeffreyLee

1965 Barracuda
Joined
Sep 20, 2017
Messages
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Location
meridian Id
I have been very careful as I broke down and began to build up my stock(ish) 318 LA motor for my 65 Barracuda. All of my engine parts have been painted and mating surfaces cleaned, new FelPro gasket set standing by. I installed a double roller timing chain, found top dead center, lined up my timing chain and started the process of putting things back together....First order of business was the timing cover followed by the oil pan. Used a skim coat of black RTV above and below my cork oil pan gasket and also around my timing cover gasket. End rubber seals installed dry with RTV only on the corners, torqued to specs...so far so good. Everything went well and I walked away looking forward to the next steps. Came back into the shop the next day and my eyes were immediately drawn to the oil slinger sitting on a different work table, not on the car! I did some research here and discovered that I could live without it. I also remembered that I have been advised to drill a oil galley hole in a bolt just behind the timing chain. Just for good measure, I did not pre-lube the timing chain. I had to take things apart and start over. ****!
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Here are some images of the oil galley bolt and oil slinger installed and ready to go.
After scraping and grinding away nicely cured RTV and gasket material, I purchased a new set of gaskets and took the same approach as far as RTV and the gaskets. I kept reading about using or not using RTV in conjunction with the gaskets. Opinions are all over the place, so I just have to read and decide what to do. I did not really understand the concept of the RTV "acting as a lubricant" and causing problems.....I understand now!
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Torque specs call for 15 foot lbs on the oil pan.....I was very careful to tighten the bolts slowly and in a pattern around the pan. Torque wrench clicked as I made my last turns and to my horror, gaskets were broken on two corners! Silicone helped the gaskets slip out of place as I tightened things down. My takeaway is that the cork gaskets should be installed dry when I do this part for the third time....Any opinions?
Now comes the biggest bonehead move of this whole process....I was cleaning off some overspray on my block getting ready to install my heads using some fine grit emery paper. I noticed a bit of overspray down inside my cylinder wall and without thinking, I reached down inside and gave a couple quick passes with my emery paper. How could I be so dumb? What was once a perfectly smooth cylinder wall is now scratched. The oil pan is still off waiting for a new gasket to come in, so I can get to the bottom of the piston still. What should I do? I am sick about this mistake I made and I hope you guys can give me some good advice.
 
Need a picture of the cylinder, but did you change rings? If so the cross hatch is about 400 grit which is coarser than Emory clothe. I wouldn't freak out about it. rtv has its place and you can use it , but I just put a thin film and just barely snug it down so it is in contact then wait for it to dry. Then finish torque. Works for me.
 
I would at least rotate the engine upside down and rinse out (WD-40 or other spay oil) any cylinder that you used the sand paper because "siilcone carbide" will tear up the rings and anything else it touches. You probably woun't see the fine particles in the cylinder but they are there. Treblig
 
I use RTV only at the junction of the cork and rubber seals (and in the odd area where the rubber seal doesn't quite match the pan).

I also carefully inspect the gasket with respect to where the bolt holes are drilled.
The last one I did had a noticeable misalignment on all four holes nearest the areas where the cork and rubber meet. That would have caused the bolts to move the gasket if I had left it alone...right in the area that's most prone to leak anyway.

Those are some interesting torque equalizers on those front corner pan bolts.
Were those already on the motor?
 
JeffreyLee said:
Silicone helped the gaskets slip out of place as I tightened things down. My takeaway is that the cork gaskets should be installed dry when I do this part for the third time....Any opinions?
Click to expand...
Follow the instructions from the manufacturer, the shop manual, or a really knowledable authority like Carrol Smith.
My conclusion from those is gaskets are always installed 'dry' or if needed, with a thin tacky adhesive to help them stay in place during assembly. RTV is used without gaskets, or sometimes as YY1 mentioned, to fill in gaps.
Personally I hate cork and have little love for RTV. The first because of the fun when removing old, dried out, cork gaskets and the bits are getting where I don't want. The second because its misuse and I find bits of it in systems where its plugging things up.
YY1 said:
Those are some interesting torque equalizers on those front corner pan bolts.
Were those already on the motor?
Click to expand...
A standard feature on that oil pan. :)
 
No offense man, but that made me laugh.
I have seen those mistakes more times than I can remember, but even when someone asks on here they get a bunch of different opinions, and from this side it seems like nobody listens anyway when you try to tell them because it's just another opinion in the pile.
Over time you will learn who to listen to, and opinions to trust.:D
 
you say smooth cylinder walls?? susposed be a good cross hatch on cylinder walls or rings wont seat right! just enuff to catch a finger nail on!
 
dirty white boy said:
you say smooth cylinder walls?? susposed be a good cross hatch on cylinder walls or rings wont seat right! just enuff to catch a finger nail on!
Click to expand...
Catch your fingernail on cross hatch? Nope. Crosshatch is much finer than that.
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AJ/FormS said:
Wouldn't that depend on the thickness and shape of your fingernail and your personal sensitivity to snagging it?
lol.
In any case, that'll buff right out.
Double-lol.
Click to expand...
its a certon feel to it, like when ya adjusting valves with feeler gauge, theres to loose, to tight, and just right! way i was taught, never had a issue...DWB
 
AJ/FormS said:
Wouldn't that depend on the thickness and shape of your fingernail and your personal sensitivity to snagging it?
lol.
In any case, that'll buff right out.
Double-lol.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking more like a manicure. :poke::poke::poke:
 
You mean womanicure?
I cut mine with a side-cutters about every third day; they really seem to like milk. They laugh at my wife's official, store-bought, nail-clipper, even new ones.
Don't even get me started on my toe-nails.
I keep telling my wife, my 220 pounds is cuz my bones are so dense.I'm getting ready to fight giants.
 
I don't want to sound critical but ANY abrasive near an open engine is not good . Have a clean workplace with assembly manuals open to the task you are doing . Have your chemicals ready with tools also . RTV is a gasket maker , not a gasket sealer . I use Spray-Tac on gaskets and RTV in the corners . You have working time with RTV but it needs time to set up after install . You are correct to torque every bolt , leaks occur from overtightening . good luck , we're here to help .
 
JeffreyLee said:
I have been very careful as I broke down and began to build up my stock(ish) 318 LA motor for my 65 Barracuda. All of my engine parts have been painted and mating surfaces cleaned, new FelPro gasket set standing by. I installed a double roller timing chain, found top dead center, lined up my timing chain and started the process of putting things back together....First order of business was the timing cover followed by the oil pan. Used a skim coat of black RTV above and below my cork oil pan gasket and also around my timing cover gasket. End rubber seals installed dry with RTV only on the corners, torqued to specs...so far so good. Everything went well and I walked away looking forward to the next steps. Came back into the shop the next day and my eyes were immediately drawn to the oil slinger sitting on a different work table, not on the car! I did some research here and discovered that I could live without it. I also remembered that I have been advised to drill a oil galley hole in a bolt just behind the timing chain. Just for good measure, I did not pre-lube the timing chain. I had to take things apart and start over. ****!
View attachment 1715252898 View attachment 1715252899
View attachment 1715252900
Here are some images of the oil galley bolt and oil slinger installed and ready to go.
After scraping and grinding away nicely cured RTV and gasket material, I purchased a new set of gaskets and took the same approach as far as RTV and the gaskets. I kept reading about using or not using RTV in conjunction with the gaskets. Opinions are all over the place, so I just have to read and decide what to do. I did not really understand the concept of the RTV "acting as a lubricant" and causing problems.....I understand now!
View attachment 1715252903 View attachment 1715252904
Torque specs call for 15 foot lbs on the oil pan.....I was very careful to tighten the bolts slowly and in a pattern around the pan. Torque wrench clicked as I made my last turns and to my horror, gaskets were broken on two corners! Silicone helped the gaskets slip out of place as I tightened things down. My takeaway is that the cork gaskets should be installed dry when I do this part for the third time....Any opinions?
Now comes the biggest bonehead move of this whole process....I was cleaning off some overspray on my block getting ready to install my heads using some fine grit emery paper. I noticed a bit of overspray down inside my cylinder wall and without thinking, I reached down inside and gave a couple quick passes with my emery paper. How could I be so dumb? What was once a perfectly smooth cylinder wall is now scratched. The oil pan is still off waiting for a new gasket to come in, so I can get to the bottom of the piston still. What should I do? I am sick about this mistake I made and I hope you guys can give me some good advice.
Click to expand...
To put it sarcastically... to hell with "torquing to spec" any "cover"...be it pan, valve cover,front cover, 90* adapter ,trans pan...and even rocker shafts for that matter. The only thing torqued to spec are the mains, rods, heads, flywheel, clutch plate, cam bolt... the rest I do by"feel".

You over torqued it...pinched the gasket... kaput.
Next cork set you get, make sure its soft and flexible. Sometimes you end up with dried out stuff. Also.. you can rtv both sides, if you want, THIN BEAD though.. and mainly put some on the threads and corners. Typically the rtv is used only on the pan side and corners. Get all bolts in...evenly WITH A 1/4 DRIVE lightly snug down then tighten criss cross center to ends keeping an eye on the corks crush. Once it starts swelling out from around the bolts... it's too tight. Watch it just start to and stop.
 
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I don't use cork gaskets anymore and I use a 1/4 ratchet to feel on tin parts.
 
I read the title and the first thing that came no my mind was oil slinger. LOL. Second thing was NOT installing the harmonic balancer when tightening the timing cover. You did do that, right?
 
For cork oil pan gaskets I found that attaching the cork gasket to the pan with Permatex high tack woks nice. Leave the cork to block surface alone. High tack glues the gasket in place so it doesn't squirt out.
 
I won't use cork, since even if it doesn't end up with a leak it softens and seeps oil eventually, and even if you go back and tighten bolts it eventually kills the gasket.
The black tar paper looking stuff never leaks with a touch of RTV on each side.
It's not nearly as sensitive to over tightening either.
Same with valve cover gaskets (rubber over steel reusable gaskets instead of cork)
My trans pan gasket is a rubber over steel reusable type also, so no cork there either.
The output shaft bearing cover is pure RTV for the same reason.
 
TrailBeast said:
I won't use cork, since even if it doesn't end up with a leak it softens and seeps oil eventually, and even if you go back and tighten bolts it eventually kills the gasket.
The black tar paper looking stuff never leaks with a touch of RTV on each side.
It's not nearly as sensitive to over tightening either.
Same with valve cover gaskets (rubber over steel reusable gaskets instead of cork)
My trans pan gasket is a rubber over steel reusable type also, so no cork there either.
The output shaft bearing cover is pure RTV for the same reason.
Click to expand...

Every motor I've rev'd hard and often... They've all soaked the pan gaskets, black milodons or cork. Cork is more sensitive to installation technique. Jmo
 
believe it or not, my 60,000 mile original was not leaking, and the cork one I just put on last year (with the procedure I described above) is not leaking either.

What is leaking is the trans input shaft seal, which I should have replaced while the engine was out.

DOH!
 
Bodyperson said:
I read the title and the first thing that came no my mind was oil slinger. LOL. Second thing was NOT installing the harmonic balancer when tightening the timing cover. You did do that, right?
Click to expand...
A friend left the slinger off his slant and it blew oil out the front seal.
 
Just an observation OP.... in the first pic, the 'skim' coat of RTV is thicker than a skim coat. Guess the tern 'skim coat' is hard to qualify LOL I never have trouble with RTV on gaskets anymore (either in the system or gaskets slipping), but pay close attention to the gasket as I tighten. When it moves a hair, STOP.

As above, I don't pay much attention to the torque on the bolts for pan or cover but go by feel and watch the gasket. Never have pan or timing or valve cover gasket leaks.

Now for 2 piece rear seals, I suck!
 
dirty white boy said:
its a certon feel to it, like when ya adjusting valves with feeler gauge, theres to loose, to tight, and just right! way i was taught, never had a issue...DWB
Click to expand...
After 15 years in the business, I like your "just right" answer. There is a certain feel to the cylinder walls fresh from the hone. But trying to convey that over this forum is hard. It is rougher than glass but smother than 600 grit sand paper. Experience is the best teacher. Pull that one piston and clean it and the cylinder with a good degreaser and a "Clean" paper shop towel. Then relube and reassemble. Crocus cloth is much finer and you would not be having this conversation after using it. Like emery paper but much finer.
 
68Dart360 said:
After 15 years in the business, I like your "just right" answer. There is a certain feel to the cylinder walls fresh from the hone. But trying to convey that over this forum is hard. It is rougher than glass but smother than 600 grit sand paper. Experience is the best teacher. Pull that one piston and clean it and the cylinder with a good degreaser and a "Clean" paper shop towel. Then relube and reassemble. Crocus cloth is much finer and you would not be having this conversation after using it. Like emery paper but much finer.
Click to expand...
Even crocus paper contains silicone carbide, it's just a many times finer grit. As long as you keep the fillings out of the piston and rings you're OK>
 
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