318 runs real load and shakes like crazy

[Jax_1975_Dart]

Video clip of engine running below:

I’m helping my father restore a ‘70 Duster with 318 motor. We initially could not get the engine to spark and run. After replacing the rich, charred, plugs with ngk basic copper ones and cleaning the starter relay connections.. we finally got it to turn over and run. We also replaced the carb with a renewed Edelbrock 1405.

Current issue: The car runs really, and I mean REALLY, loud. The timing can’t seem to be dialed-in; as the notched line in the harmonic balancer isn’t showing (at all) with the three timing guns we have. We did recently establish the firing order at top dead center and that’s really what was able to get the car to start.

The other thing is that the cooling fan visibility changes speed when you stare directly at it. Almost like there’s some hesitation.

I know there’s a lot I need to check into but, do you guys have any ideas what to start looking at?

I’ve tried setting the curb idle and carb set screws. Fully closed set screws and /or fully open set screws currently have zero impact. If I adjust curb idle (barely lower) the engine stalls out.

 

[Cuprum-74]

Fuel, Air, Spark.

Fuel: Is the fuel good? It's obviously getting fuel so make sure the gas is good. If it starts to smell like a combination of bourbon and turpentine the gas is bad and it will make the car run like crap.
Air: it's obviously getting air. And I'm not hearing any valvetrain noise. So this seems good. Look for any vacuum leaks.
Now Spark: This can be a combination of things.
- How do the spark plugs look?
- Has the distributor been looked at? The ignition coil? It does look newish from the video but it's hard to tell.
- Now this one is a possibility, and this is no reflection on your skills or anything, that being said I've done this before because I was tired and exhausted*: Are the spark plug wires on the correct cylinders?

*Yeah, I got the wires crossed before because I wasn't working on all cylinders after working on the car for 7 hours and it was 4 am in the morning.

 

[Projectile Dart]

The most important step right now is get get your ballpark initial timing. I know you did you established TDC to get your firing order but with no Notch visible on the balance you really have no idea where you are. On mine I set TDC to 0* and used yellow paint to draw a solid line from one side to the other of the harmonic balancer. Luckily on mine, my line hadn't shifted and 0* lined up with TDC so I made a short yellow line at 5* then a longer line at 10* then short at 15* etc and I repeated until roughly 40* It's a tedious process but the more care you take here, the easier it'll be later on down the line to set initial timing and also figure out a rough distributor curve if you decide to go that far.
Every engine is very different and will need its own initial timing, but typically if your engine is stock, initial timing should fall in the range of 5*-15* (I am not an expert and you might be a little out of this range depending on how your distributor is set up) You can usually start at about 10-12* and decide how the engine runs then move it up or down from there. My personal engine likes to be in the 12-14* ish range of initial. (Reminder to always check initial timing with the vacuum advance on the distributor disconnected, and the line plugged)
Once you set that you need to look everywhere for vacuum leaks because it looks to me like you are either way out of timing or have a significant vacuum leak, or both.
Good luck!

 

[George Jets]

Sometimes you just need to run them for 1/2 hour to get the lifters pumped up and get the rings to cylinders lubed so that it can start building some compression after sitting for a long time.

Warming it up good makes the rings expand too and helps them to re-seat to the cylinder walls.

Make sure you have clean new fuel.

Check the oil level and make sure it is not over full with half gasoline. If so, change the oil and filter with new 10w30 Motor oil. Goes a long ways to help pump up the lifters and seal the piston rings with new oil in it.

☆☆☆☆☆

 

[69FBCuda]

Did you pull the distributor, it could be out 180 deg it would run rough and backfire on occasion.

Setting the initial timing to zero would also cause rough unstable idle.

Is the timing tab on driver or passenger side?

 

[Bewy]

An engine that has sat for a long time can have a myriad of problems: stuck piston rings, rust in the bores, stuck/leaking valves, lifters. Etc...

 

[4spdragtop]

Pour seafoam into each cylinder(remove spark plugs).
Draw a line in marker across the harmonic balancer to make sure it hasnt slipped. Verify TDC with a piston stop.
Pic of fan? I hope it's not a flex fan, I've seen horrific pics if a blade let's go.
Good luck

 

[67Dart273]

Has anything been done internally to what appears to be an old engine? EG is it possible the timing chain is out of time?

Do you know and understand number 1 is front driver's side, that the plug wires / firing order goes cw around the cap, and understand the firing order? VERY easy to get 5 and 7 switched.

I would run a compression check. Pull the valve covers and inspect pushrods and valves for movement, looseness, unwanted valve lash, etc

Since you can't seem to find the timing mark, I would make or get a piston stop and check the timing marks.

This is my old one, I still have. Made in the SEVENTIES

Remove the no1 plug, the battery ground, and get a socket to fit the front balancer bolt. Removing all 8 plugs will make things easier. Gently rotate the engine over until it stops aka the piston against the stop. Make a temporary mark onto the balancer under TDC. Now rotate the engine backwards and repeat. You will have two temporary marks, and true TDC is halfway between.


COMPRESSION, FUEL, and SPARK

Compression means the engine has enough compression to run, that it is in good enough condition that you could expect it so, and implies the camshaft/ chain timing is OK

FUEL means FRESH fuel and just because you have a "renewed" carb does not mean it is gonna work properly

SPARK means a good hot spark and AT PROPER time.

Those three things are what it takes.

 

[Mattax]

I’m helping my father restore a ‘70 Duster with 318 motor. We initially could not get the engine to spark and run. After replacing the rich, charred, plugs with ngk basic copper ones and cleaning the starter relay connections.

Sounds like you got a used engine and know nothing about it's history. yes?
So you changed plugs and tried to start it. yes?
And then you succeeded.

The car runs really, and I mean REALLY, loud.

Are you talking about the engine clacking or are you talking about exhaust?
Can't tell from the recorded audio. Capturing sound, especially loud sounds, is an art and science. Just tell us what you mean.

The timing can’t seem to be dialed-in; as the notched line in the harmonic balancer isn’t showing (at all) with the three timing guns we have.

That's probably really straight forward. The timing is beyond the range of the factory marks.
I'll go further and say its probably too far advanced to be read at whatever rpm the engine was running.

Lets say this is factory engine with a distributor from 1969.
The dashed gray line represents the advance curve measured for this specific distributor.

I think the factory timing marks only go to 10* Before Top Dead Center.
So with this distributor, timing above 1100 rpm will not line up with any factory marks.

Looking at your engine it looks like its sporting a Street Dominator intake and some other bits that suggest its been hot rodded.
In which case it will want timing and advance closer to a non-smogged 273 4bbl, or an older Mopar Performance distributor.
Instead of 0 or 5* @ 650 or 700 rpm, it would want 10 or 12* at 650 to 750 rpm.

The more radical the cam, and the lower the compression, the more initial it will want.
But the point is that initial of 10 - 12* is at the edge of the factory marks.
Cheap answer is timing tape. Get one with a dark background.

I’ve tried setting the curb idle and carb set screws. Fully closed set screws and /or fully open set screws currently have zero impact. If I adjust curb idle (barely lower) the engine stalls out.

Yup.
Classic indicator of hot rodded engine.
It will take several iterations of increasing timing and reducing the throttle position, then readjusting mix.
The idle mix is only the fine adjusment on the idle circuit.
The transfer slots also provide a portion of the fuel at idle. Open the throttles too much and the transfer slot contribution overwhelms the idle port contribution.

Maybe obvious but the engine must be warmed up before it will idle at low rpm.

 

[Mattax]

I think you need to do a few things before getting too far along here.
Its great your doing this project and want to push ahead, but a little prep will go a long way to getting to the end results quicker and safer.

You'll need tachometer and notebook to go with the timing light.
Use timing tape or mark the damper to extend the timing range that can be measured.
Write down both the timing and the rpm at several different rpms.
That way when you change the timing you'll have reference points. I like to plot them on a graph but thats a personal preference.
Chrysler's instructions hold true regardless of whether its a stock engine or a modified one. Clipped and posted here
Set initial timing withthe vacuum advance disconnected.

The changing RPM may be that its running a bit lean for the conditions.
Or maybe it has a miss because of wiring. This caught my eye!
??

That doesn't look good.

A few other things that would be worth straightening out.

1. Throttle return spring

2. Fuel line to carb.

It should be a metal line from the fuel pump to the filter that runs next to the water pump - not over the exhaust manifold.
A lot safer and a bit cooler. Keep the outlet of the filter higher than the filter inlet, but lower than the lin from it to the carb. That lets vapor vent through the carb's bowl inlet.

Carburetion and Performance Diagnosis (Session 188) from the Master Technician's Service Conference

3. Secure the electrical wires.

Not sure about 1970, but in '67 there was a hole on the battery tray lip to tie the negative to engine away from the fan.
Every year had small difference but the important thing is that wires are not flopping, and have some slack (strain relief).

While mentioning safety, make sure the battery is charged.
If you observe the ammeter pegged thats going to be real bad pretty quick.
If its stays at half way toward charge (20 amps) or more for a long time (10 - 15 minutes) that's also going to cause melting at connections.
If the ammeter is showing discharge when the engine is running, then the battery is supplying power to run the car and therefore the alternator is not.

 

[Jax_1975_Dart]

Thank you all for the very thoughtful comments and suggestions. I won’t be out where the car is stored until Saturday but, have a lot of items to check:

Timing: There is a clearly visibly timing mark that we used to mark TDC and then our firing order. I’m fairly new to all of this and will need to revisit our wire ordering to the distributor. We did get a new distributor cap and new wire set (when I changed the spark plugs). Car has a ‘75 five pin ignition plug so, I had to buy a new ‘75 model year ignition control module. (Which, I’ve read the newer ones are truly hit or miss). I do think switching the intermediate shaft 180 might be worth a shot. I assume, I’d need to redo plug wires when 180 the shaft, right? I’ll also try adding more marks to see if they start showing where we have the distributor advanced to.

A few mentioned the timing chain. Would that symptom present itself while cranking? I’m attaching a video of before we got it running. There were intermittent times where the engine seemed to struggling more than usual to crank. The rough crank symptom would sometimes last about 3-5 seconds and then the starter would be able to move everything normal again. I’m attaching a video from before we were able to get the car to start. I thought it was an electrical resistance issue more than the timing change. Note; battery is also getting tired in the video but, even when fully charged there would be some rough patches where the starter could barely move the flywheel.




Will try a fresh oil change and let it run.

Gas is brand new. New fuel tank, new rubber lines and new clear Wix filter shows fresh fuel direct to carb.

Valve lash/rockers. I’ve never done this before and it’s been on my to do list for my /6. I’ll take a look and see if any rockers are loose or anything looks awry under the valve covers.

I am 100% doing a compression test and will post the numbers. I can crank electrically while getting the numbers, right? Or, does this need to be done with a cheater bar on the crank and someone watching during compression stroke?

Vacuum leak: Car seems over carbureted to me. I wish I knew more about the previous owner and their intentions. The intake and 4 bbl sound very similar to vacuum leak problems I’ve encountered when failing to properly plug all of the ports on a carb or not properly sealing the carb. I have it snug and properly plugged but, having the set screws and curb idle be utterly useless has me baffled.

Distributor does have a reluctor. I have never serviced one before. Is it similar to gapping points?



Thanks again all!

 

[Jax_1975_Dart]

I think you need to do a few things before getting too far along here.
Its great your doing this project and want to push ahead, but a little prep will go a long way to getting to the end results quicker and safer.

You'll need tachometer and notebook to go with the timing light.
Use timing tape or mark the damper to extend the timing range that can be measured.
Write down both the timing and the rpm at several different rpms.
That way when you change the timing you'll have reference points. I like to plot them on a graph but thats a personal preference.
Chrysler's instructions hold true regardless of whether its a stock engine or a modified one. Clipped and posted here

The changing RPM may be that its running a bit lean for the conditions.
Or maybe it has a miss because of wiring. This caught my eye!
??
View attachment 1716112377

That doesn't look good.

A few other things that would be worth straightening out.

1. Throttle return spring


View attachment 1716112385

2. Fuel line to carb.

It should be a metal line from the fuel pump to the filter that runs next to the water pump - not over the exhaust manifold.
A lot safer and a bit cooler. Keep the outlet of the filter higher than the filter inlet, but lower than the lin from it to the carb. That lets vapor vent through the carb's bowl inlet.

http://[URL][URL][URL]https://www.web.imperialclub.info/Repair/Lit/Master/188/Page13.htm

[/URL][/URL][/URL]


3. Secure the electrical wires.
View attachment 1716112386

Not sure about 1970, but in '67 there was a hole on the battery tray lip to tie the negative to engine away from the fan.
Every year had small difference but the important thing is that wires are not flopping, and have some slack (strain relief).

While mentioning safety, make sure the battery is charged.
If you observe the ammeter pegged thats going to be real bad pretty quick.
If its stays at half way toward charge (20 amps) or more for a long time (10 - 15 minutes) that's also going to cause melting at connections.
If the ammeter is showing discharge when the engine is running, then the battery is supplying power to run the car and therefore the alternator is not.

Thanks @Mattax you have a great attention to detail! That’s and extra boot that is in the middle of the spark plug wire. I plan to cut it off because it looks tacky but, both ends of that wire are snapped snug to distributor and spark plug.


Also, you’re the first to mention the exhaust. We added a muffler that sits near the middle of the car but, the exhaust sounds being emitted are a lot louder than they should be for this 318. The exhaust manifolds all seem fine but, further down pipe is suspect.

 

[toolmanmike]

Needs a freshly charged battery and you possibly have a tired starter. When it kicks back against the starter like that, the timing is usually too far advanced. I would guess 25° or more advanced at idle. Start out at around 10°-15°

 

[Mattax]

Add a voltmeter to list, and as TMM posted, get that thing charged on battery charger regardless.
When cranking the battery should not drop below 9.5 Volts.

Since it was running, we know it all works. It also accepted increase in throttle without any noticible misses. You can double check but seems like firing order is fine as is reluctor gap.

Car has a ‘75 five pin ignition plug so, I had to buy a new ‘75 model year ignition control module.

The only thing that matters with the original Chrysler electronic ignition is the ECU.
If its an original ECU, then it will use all 5 pins and needs to be wired with the 'dual ballast', the 5 ohm resistor is used to control current to the ECU.
The original wiring can be used with a later ECU, no changes neccessary.

Vacuum leak: Car seems over carbureted to me. I wish I knew more about the previous owner and their intentions. The intake and 4 bbl sound very similar to vacuum leak problems I’ve encountered when failing to properly plug all of the ports on a carb or not properly sealing the carb. I have it snug and properly plugged but, having the set screws and curb idle be utterly useless has me baffled.

Idle is too high.
It looks like timing was checked with vacuum advance connected, which compounds the problem (see the Chrysler tech)

It looks like the second video the choke was fully closed through all the attempts.
if the engine was already a bit warm, need to open the throttles a bit as well as the choke. Tie the choke open if needed. Its summertime, its hardly needed.

if you have enough room on the starter cable, turn the battery arround. That will shorten the distance for the negative to the block and let you drop the battery in the tray.

 

[67Dart273]

5 pin. Forget that. If you have a FOUR pin ballast, (older) you need a FIVE pin ECU. A newer and improved (OEM) FOUR pin ECU will work with EITHER a 2 or 4 pin ballast.

There is NO way to tell a 4 pin ECU from a 5 pin by looking. Many 4 pin ECUs have 5 physical pins.

 

[Jax_1975_Dart]

5 pin. Forget that. If you have a FOUR pin ballast, (older) you need a FIVE pin ECU. A newer and improved (OEM) FOUR pin ECU will work with EITHER a 2 or 4 pin ballast.

There is NO way to tell a 4 pin ECU from a 5 pin by looking. Many 4 pin ECUs have 5 physical pins.

@67Dart273 It does have a 4 pin ballast resister and there’s all of the previous ignition wiring hanging out next to where the newer 5 pin ‘75 year ECU is ground to the fender. Are you suggesting I try an earlier year NOS 4 pin one off Halifaxhops or that I should be okay with the new 5 pin ECU off RockAuto? I do have an OEM NOS 5 pin for my /6 Dart that I bought tested from Halifax and, could pop in and see if that helps with the ignition firing.

Thanks again!

 

[mygasser]

the timing may be out, but it wouldn't run if it was 180 degrees out. it'd just backfire and pop etc but not run. it definately wouldn't rev evenly like it does in the video.
neil.

 

[Mattax]

It does have a 4 pin ballast resister and there’s all of the previous ignition wiring hanging out next to where the newer 5 pin ‘75 year ECU is ground to the fender.

Not sure you mean by all that about previous ignition wire

Does this clarify it?

^^Right. ^^ 4 pin ballast and harness will work with either 4 or 5 pin box

A 5 pin box MUST have a 4 pin ballast

if the wiring is set up with the two resistors, it doesn't matter whether the ECU is a 4 pin or 5 pin, for the system to work.

 

[iScamp]

The cranking hesitation looks to me to be too much initial timing.

Also, it may be an optical illusion but looking at the plug wires at the distributor, I think you have cylinder 7 and 4 transposed. Could be just an illusion.

 

[sireland67]

It sound to me like either:
You have bad plug wires/cap and rotor.
Firing order is off, its easy to switch 5 & 7.
Timing is way off.
Timing chain itself has jumped.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Im thinking its in that carburetor take the top off and blow out the passages etc. also in the video in post 1 something is shooting ou or arcing near the exhaust manifold maybe its an exhaust leak...

 

[pt70]

Fan should be closer to the radiator shroud
PVC valve is usually on the driver's side ---- PVC breather vent is on passenger side
#1 plug wire on the distributor cap faces the front of the car from the factory. Then clockwise
Firing order is cast into the intake manifold
Timing is TDC if it is the original distributor

 

[Mattax]

Also, you’re the first to mention the exhaust. We added a muffler that sits near the middle of the car but, the exhaust sounds being emitted are a lot louder than they should be for this 318. The exhaust manifolds all seem fine but, further down pipe is suspect.

One possibility: on a later '70s engine the heads have small holes under the exhaust ports that originally lined up with air or EGR, I forget which.
Get the shop manual, you'll see where the muffler goes.
Exhaust outlet under the car will sound loud so I wouldn't worry too much about that right now

 

[jcnaz408]

Video clip of engine running below:

I’m helping my father restore a ‘70 Duster with 318 motor. We initially could not get the engine to spark and run. After replacing the rich, charred, plugs with ngk basic copper ones and cleaning the starter relay connections.. we finally got it to turn over and run. We also replaced the carb with a renewed Edelbrock 1405.

Current issue: The car runs really, and I mean REALLY, loud. The timing can’t seem to be dialed-in; as the notched line in the harmonic balancer isn’t showing (at all) with the three timing guns we have. We did recently establish the firing order at top dead center and that’s really what was able to get the car to start.

The other thing is that the cooling fan visibility changes speed when you stare directly at it. Almost like there’s some hesitation.

I know there’s a lot I need to check into but, do you guys have any ideas what to start looking at?

I’ve tried setting the curb idle and carb set screws. Fully closed set screws and /or fully open set screws currently have zero impact. If I adjust curb idle (barely lower) the engine stalls out.

If that is the original engine, it has the wrong timing cover. Timing mark should be on passenger side, water inlet on left. Timing would be way off. If it is a 71 could be either.

 

[sireland67]

If that is the original engine, it has the wrong timing cover. Timing mark should be on passenger side, water inlet on left. Timing would be way off. If it is a 71 could be either.

I have never seen a timing marks on the passenger side of any 70 or newer small blocks, they have always been on the drivers side.

But with Mopars stranger things have happened.
My first week build 73 Duster had seats in them from 72, production line must have been using up inventory.