349 CI on the cheap

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BJR Racing

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First we'll start with a 318 block (rebuilder) as they are plentiful, then we'll get a 360 crank and turn the mains down to 318 specs. this runs about $200.00 to do. We are going to use the factory 6.123 rods, and low compression 318 pistons which are 1.72 compression height. Next we are going to align hone and deck the block to clean and square deck all 4 corners. Price will vary as to your local. This is more info on what to do and not priced as price can vary. So now we have a block that measures 9.570 after decking .030. As most used blocks are generally out .020 to .030 from core settleing and thermal cycles, some may be taller as they are only castings. Now this is where we are 9.570 actual deck height less the rod lenght, and the compression distance, and stroke. Half of 3.58 is 1.79 on stroke.

9.570-1.79=7.780 minus rod lenght of 6.123= 1.657 less the compression distance of 1.72= .063 above the deck. Now we'll take a corteco head gasket of .055 which now we have .008 above the gasket. Or for racing use a .022 mopar gasket and have .033 more compression for a total of .041 above the gasket.

Next we'll go to the heads, for a 349 CI we'll need the 360 heads to get enough port volume and air flow. By my calulations we'll need 166 cc's of port volume and 266 cfms to supply enough air and we'll be useing the 1.88 intake valves and 1.60 exhaust valves to help keep the port velocity up. This is fairly easy to get when mildly ported. As for the chambers they have been in the .095 to .105 in chamber depth stock, at the area where the quench would be. So now we have a positive deck of .041 with the gasket in place, or .008 depending on which gasket is being used. In this case we'll use the thinner gasket so we'll be .041 above the deck. Now the deck is .095 less the positive deck of .041 and we now have a quench of .051 so we'll deck the heads to true them up, generally this takes .010 to .012 so now we have a total quench of .039 to .041 which is what most would like to have as total quench. This now yeilds 12.21:1 this is why this is a race setup, the thicker head gasket will yeild about 11.5:1. If it doesn't take as much to deck the heads or the block then this will change to a lower compression and be more streetable.

Next we'll go to the camshaft, for our example were useing a comp cams .540 /300 drag race cam with 255 @ .050. For this cam the pistons will have to be notched, so we notched them .200 as the pistons are forged and are .400 thick. This is about as far as you can go safely. We'll be useing 1.6 ratio rockers so the lift is .576 but the lash is .026 and we have to subtract .010 for the loss of valve lift due to the grind for mopars. Now we have a actual net lift of .540. So with the valve reliefs we should have .100-.130 valve to piston clearence depending on the gasket thickness.

Next we'll go to the intake manifold, this I leave up to the end user for what they want. But for our application we used the M-1 intake as we had it, from another engine. And we'll top it off with a holley carb 850 cfm with 83 and 88 jets and no power valves.

Next we went to the exhaust as we used hedders the were from dyno-max as they were inexpensive and could get them locally. They were the 1 5/8 street type as we didn't want to get to large as we only have 349 CI's and the bore won't support much more, and neither will the heads.

So now to some this up we have a 318 with a 360 crank and stock rods and pistons of the forged type. Stock type heads with work done and a M-1 intake and a street type hedders. A good cam and valve train and oiling system to support this type of engine. The preliminary tests have shown 578 HP @ 6500 and 507 TQ @ 5000, and 506 FT. lbs. @ 4500. So it has a nice broad torque curve. Even in lessor trim it should still have over 500 HP and 450 in torque and be streetable.

Our cost in this engine with all machine work and parts we have $4,400.00 invested. A cast piston version with less cam would be roughly $500.00 less. Not bad for a engine like this when a crate engine costs about the same and wouldn't have the quality or the power.

But it does show what can be done with available parts and some time if your a do it your selfer, other than machine work. I'm guessing that you may be able to save $1,000.00 or more.
This is for information only and just something that we wanted to play with.
 
Bobby, looks like another winner. Two thumbs up. I say build it and keep us informed as to your progress. I for one will be waiting for the results of this build. I think with a few small changes it would make a dynamite street package and on the cheap side too. Good to talk to you today on the phone. Call anytime, and good luck on your build Bobby. Terry.
 
Bobby you always post the stuff I think about a day before haha. I was thinking about building roughly this same combo, due to you wouldnt have to clearance the block for the crank making it stronger. Only thing I am curious about is the pricing. Is it for everything including the block, parts, and machine work? Also, clear this up for me but low compression 318 pistons are forged? What year 318s?

Thanks Bobby for posting this, I will have to come visit you sometime in the summer and see these beauties.
 
I've been just itching to do this build - 500hp 318 - thanks Bobby
 
BoredandStroked,
The pistons aren't forged in the 318 from the factory I bought them. They have 4 valve reliefs in them as a flat top. Yes this would include the block, but if you have a core engine and want to do this yourself you'll have less $$$ in it, and if you want me to do the machining that can happen also, if not then use it for the info.
 
388dart,
I want to run this on alcohol in my race car this year, it shows over 600 HP and over 550 ft lbs of tq. carburated. This should be enough to run 9.90 in the 1/4 in my dart, and injected alcohol should get me close to the 8.90 et @ 2670 lbs.
I have to say thanks to Steve Garland (fuzzy) at the chassis shop for getting Jerry Bickel to supply the Pro Stock front suspension, and Steve for building the new front half, as the old one didn't survive the wheel stand. It bent the left side frame rail and roll bar up 3/4", so out with the big block and in with the small block for testing.........geeeessssss I guess I had brain fade.
I'll put the small block in later this year.
 
headsbikesmopars,
Feel free to put what you would do to make changes, as it may be something that I over looked. We are all here to learn, and maybe this change would work out better for some people, and be more feasable for them.
 
I even thought of cutting the tops of the pistons .030-.040 for street use and for pump gas along with the thick gaskets and then you could get to 10-10.5:1. At .040 off the top of the pistons it would be .023 out of the top of the block which is just .005 more than the factory 340 HP engines came with.
Also too you would have to add .005-.008 more ring end gap as the top ring will be sitting closer to the top of the cylinder bore, much like the KB pistons.
 
Bobby,

I have the 2 core engines to start with. A 318 with 76,000 on it and a late 70,s 360. Asuming that they are both good and I tackled the head porting myself, went with a little lower compression for the street, what would you put the approximate cost at?
Also, would the 360 cast crank hold up to that kind of HP?

Jack
 
Jack,
The mopar cranks are good to about 600 HP potential, and being that most of them, in fact all 360 cranks are cast from the factory.
I just recalculated the compression ratio with a 70 cc head and .040 off the piston which leaves the piston .023 above the deck and a .055 gasket the compression ratio will be 10.36:1 and 10.62:1 with a 68 cc head. But keep in mind that if you dont have to take .030 off the block deck surface then the compression will be even lower.
The machining cost in the block without parts is $1,100.00, this would include: grinding the crank, resize the rods, align hone the mains, square deck the block, boring and honing and balancing. I figured about $1,800.00 in the heads with parts, then the rest of the cost is in the engine kit parts, cam,lifters,rod and main, and cam brgs.,rings, pistons, gasket set, intake, chain and gears,oil pump, rockers, and pushrods. I allowed $1,500.00 for this.
So to answer your question I would guess that depending on what parts that you use, you would have $2,500.00- $2,800.00 in the engine with you doing the heads youself.
 
Wow, that is a big saving to have that kind of HP and still be able to say you have a little old 318. LOL
Having the parts on hand can be the deciding factor when it comes to the engine your going to build. To end up with 500 plus HP and be under $3000 is a big reason to go this route.

This thread should open the eye's on a lot of guy's with 318's that are always looking for 340's to build.

Jack
 
Jack,
I've seen some engine kits out there for $600.00 but you have to be careful as you get what you pay for and you may be into the engine in a year, thats why we went with the better parts and the cost is a bit higher. So is it feasable to do it cheaper .....yes. But if you have parts on hand then the engine becomes real cheap as you don't have to buy parts or engines. But this is a judgement that the builder has to make.
 
BJR....I think you are thinking right . I have been studying this combination also...I believe this is a way better combination for longevity than the 4" stroke and I believe will make more power per cubic in. because it has alot better rod angle and will not have the cylinder wall drag that a 4" stoke will and if you think about it still has the 360 concept. Only thing is that you will have to buzz a little (for drag racing) harder than the 4" stroke because you will not have as much torque...As for the alcohol, I don't believe it will help you a full 1 second as for the cars we have tried it on it has only helped about 60 tire hp and at 9.80 this will not increase a full second...Now remember these are just my thoughts and my wife says they're not to bright..LOL...Anyway, this is a very good thread you started...Lee
 
Lee,
Alcohol by it's self won't pickup that much but does help, as for the the 1 sec. deal I also would be going to injection, and for the 1/8 mile 9.90 is a 6.30 and 8.90 is 5.70. Also the balance would be like a 360 with light weight pistons which helps the higher RPM's, and peak Hp @ 6500 RPM's, but peak tq. is 5000 RPM's so the shift point would be 6000 as the RPM's will drop to about 5500 and the tq is still high at this point, something like 502 ft lbs.
This engine is built off of the Top Fuel engines style specs. that they use a large crank stroke and a small bore with long rods. This keeps bore to stroke and bore to rod ratios more in line. But this doesn't get carried away with stroke and throw rod angle out the window.
In all reality the ultimate engine would have the piston pins moved and the pin height shortened to take more advantage of the cranks stroke and make the rod angle better along with the rod ratio. The best position for the crank to be is 10-12* past TDC when fireing, this gives the best performance and tq. Also the longer rod allows the piston to remain at TDC longer giveing a better burn and more power with less piston rock and drag in the cylinders. And theres still alot of things that can be done to enhance power even more, but this now gets away from the cheap aspect and defeats the purpose of doing this engine combo.
 
BJR you can do the same thing with a 360 block bored .040 over and use standard bore '72 -'73 340 pistons. The low compression 340's had the same piston compression distance @ 1.72. I have already done this and it ends up with 367ci. You can find forged standard bore 340 low comp pistons on ebay all the time because know one wants them. I am in the process of building another one that I am going to setup for E85 being that pump fuel will be able to handle the compression of this setup.


Chuck
 
Yep and the 360 lends it self to this very easily, just as the 318 does. Thought about doing one of them myself, but something about the 318 just intrested me, and they'er more plentiful. And alot of people shun them. But very good point, sound like another thread, I'll leave this one for you.
Another nice thing is that some of the low compression 340 pistons had dish's this also helps.
 
When you turn down the 360 crank to the 318 main size do you also have to turn down the rear main seal surface?


Chuck
 
You can buy a Mopar Perf crank with a 360 stroke and 340/360 mains for about $350
 
I have heard of a few of these engines running around. Most are mild. I think if I were to do it, i would do a little different. I dont like hanging a piston dome that was not designed for it out of the deck. Mopars are tall pistons, and there might be room. But I would have concerns about the top ring hitting the bore chamfer. I had a 318 with soem Chevy pistons in it. I need to sit with some books, but I'm sure a chevy piston can be used on a mopar rod with a bushing replacement that would be part of a rod re-do anyway. But, my approach would be to use a 318 block, sonic test it, and bore it .090 over, then use the off the shelf 360 pistons for it. Another note...the cast performance cranks can take 600hp as a limit. Those have large good radii, no sharp edges on the journals, and better material. A factory casting, especially cut down to 318 main size, will not take 600hp. At least not for long. I applaud the effort tho. There's a lot more to it then just telling a shop to slam that together. Plus, I just bought two 4" cranks from Eagle, $350 each. With off the shelf forged pistons they can be used in a 3.91 to 3.97 bore 318 block. Not necessarily as "budget" as BJR, but less extra machining to get things to fit, and a streetable compression ratio.
 
Moper, why would you go to the trouble to sonic test a 318 then bore it out to a 360 bore size then turn a 360 crank to the main size of a 318 so you can have 360ci? This seems like the long way around the bush to get 360ci. Why not just rebuild a 360?


Chuck
 
Well, for some unknown reason (or at least unknown to me...) some guys just have to have that 318 cast in the side...even if it isnt one anymore...lol. Some people cant find 360 block cores locally. So, would I? No. I would use a core 318 block and build a 402. The 349s I know of used a factory crank and rods, but custom forged pistons. So there is room to save there. But unless you have the drill press and fly cutter, a crank grinder, etc you're paying for things like turning the crank further than "normal", cutting valve reliefs deeper, possibly trimming the dome surface a little, milling the intake to properly fit, shimming the rocker shafts. Not to mention paying someone to get decent flow numbers from a set of iron. BJR can do it. I dont think I could get that from say a std set of 308s or Js. And a shop that can wont do it for short money. The ultimate in cheap I think would be a .060 over 283 piston of some sort, with the 360 crank, and basic well done 308 casting heads. But that aint gonna make no 600hp. Not by a long shot. Sometimes "saving" means just keeping it simple. I also wouldnt build a 600hp small block with a factory block unless a rule book said I had to. I wont spend a dime unless I get a dimes worth from the result. Saving $100 and running a crank cut .300 undersize worries me. You can put nice radii on it, but it is getting thin even for std pass car duty to me. The ones I know of are solid 400hp street engines that dont rev past 5500. Building a true 600hp on a std car block worries me. Especially when using heavy parts, and the flexible crank. But that's why we're here. Toss out ideas..
 
Moper,
But like Adam said they make a crank for the 318/340 with the 360 stroke, and now your not grinding the crank and weakening it. Also if you dont cut the block the piston will only be out of the block .033, a stock 340 HP was out .018, I personally dont think that .015 more out of the block is really going to hurt the ring location or have any problems.The amount that I cut my block was to clean it up, the next guys block may not need this much. Also you don't have to cut the heads anymore than you want to, I was just useing this amount to get the quench where I wanted it. This doesnt mean that it has to be done to make it run. And actually the compression will be down enough for pump gas at this point. And obviously if you dont run this large of a cam and carb the power won't be there either, but I still think that 500 HP and 450 ft lbs of tq and be streetable out of a 318 which really isn't a 318 anymore would be pretty neat. And you don't have to search for 340/360 engines. It really isn't any different than putting a 4" crank in a 360 block, except for the rod angles are better and the side loading wont be there, so longevity and the price of aftermarket pistons and other parts arent warranted. Which to me makes this a better engine for less $$$$ with more than reasonable results.
Most engines running pump gas aren't going to be raced every weekend, but would go to car shows and maybe a race or two, or just for cruisin around on the weekends. This is just something to burn the tires up and sound great for the do it your selfer. Even if they spend $2,500.00 or $3,000.00 it still is less than a crate engine that would have to be looked at, and they would have the fun of doing it, and be different than the run of the mill chebby guys.
 
Some questions from the curious youngester Bobby,

Did you put a race grind on the crank?
Did you lighten up the pistons any more then what they came as?
What brand and style pistons did you use and how much did they weigh?
Did you lighten up the rods?
Shave the heads any to get the bigger chamber sive shaved down to the 318s bore size?

Meant to say this earlier but if you did shave the heads it would increase the valve travel and start to hit the pistons so is there any way of putting deeper valve reliefs in the piston. I know this is boarderline crazy but just curious as always.

Thanks again Bobby for this post, I remember asking you about this type of engine but we didnt go into details.
 
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