360 build on a budget. Opinions????

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65barracudadude

65barracudadude

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O.K. I read a lot of these threads. But they are always about someone wanting opinions about building a 318 on a budget. Well, I'm the kind of person that is going to get the most bang for my buck. Mind you, this combo will be going into a '65 barracuda. I already have all of the parts I'll need to do the swap into an early A. So I got a '75 360 4 barrel/904 combo from a '75 Roadrunner. I'm going to take it all apart and have everything hot tanked. And buy a gasket set, freeze plugs,ect. And mind you, I'm REALLY on a budget here.And was initially just going to put it back together stock. But I figured that there is enough knowledge on this site to spend the same or a little more to do some things to the motor to get some more H.P. out of it. And just some more "up to date" ways of building my motor. I'm stuck in the late 80's. So most of you on this site know a lot more recent information about this kind of thing. I'll start off by telling you all what I have so far. These are parts that I'll have to use for now. Later I can change things up. But I'm going for just a little better than stock here anyway. O.K. I have a Crane cam, [just above R.V. specs]like 272 duration. I have a high volume oil pump. I have a. Edelbrock single plane 4 barrel manifold and 600cfm.Carb. I do have a set of 273 adjustable rocker arms laying around if those will help at all. And now for your opinions. Thanks. Oh, I'll have to use stock '65 273 exhaust manifolds and get them fitted to work on the 360. For now.
 
Oh, come on. Where are the professional engine builders here????? I'm only asking for some help in putting this back together. Just some suggestions on some tweaking here and there. Ya know, like what to have done to the heads? Or whatever?
 
I'll have to use stock '65 273 exhaust manifolds and get them fitted to work on the 360. For now
Click to expand...

they will hurt big time. wait till you see the port size difference. a set of spitfires would help a ton.

and with a cam just above a RV cam you would be better off with a dual plane intake.


when i had the 360 in my 64 valiant years ago. it was a stock 78 360 with a 268H comp cam and a performer intake with a 600 holley going through 273 manifold and 3:55 gear with a small street radial on it and the car went 14.1 in the quarter. if i had spitfires back then it would have been in the 13's easy.
 
The crane cam might be a bit much for it...what are all the specs for it? This would be a decent cam to go with on an otherwise stock engine http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM-K6900&autoview=sku

I'd also suggest using a dual plane intake, since you don't have the valvetrain or exhaust to support a bunch of RPMs. The stock Iron dual plane is an OK piece, but its spreadbore only so you'd need an adapter to run your edelbrock.

Ideally you'd add some headers and decent sized dual exhaust, and if you had more money to spend, magnum heads, a healthy cam, and an air gap intake...which is pretty much my combo...which is a real runner from what I can tell anyway.

Throw in a new double roller timing chain while you're in there and at least a new oil pump pickup.
 
I would build up the block stock (for now) and get a set of headers to replace the stock manifolds. Building up the motor only to choke its ability to get rid of spent gases is never a good idea. R/T heads on your motor might be a good idea too, if you can salvage a set, they breathe better. Cam and or intake upgrades would make sense later once the block is set up. By the way stock 360 motor in an early A make the car perform very satisfactorily.

Just my two cents
 
Compression will be a huge issue. Mill the heads and buy some good piston rings?

Oil control is cheap hp. A windage tray or a decent oil pan helps.

Do you need the high volume oil pump? Those are a horsepower drain.

I agree that you'd be better off with a dual plane manifold. Maybe it depends on which single plane you've got, but I doubt it.

Steve
 
2 problems with the engine componets, 2 problems with the goal. Engine first.

The single plane Edelbrock is a TorkerII right?

A single plane intake isn't going to start working until 2500 rpm or higher for a different single plane or if the cam is large. Your cam, a Crane, is small. The 272 duration is a 218 @ .050 with starting RPM of approx. 1800.

In order to balance the combo, you'll need to ethier use a different intake or cam. To help guide you in the balance of the engine, the last two problems are addressed.

What is the goal of the engine/car in terms of power or better yet, speed?

What is the price tag of "On a budjet?"

These questions can be difficult to answer sometimes but being honest and realistic about this matter will result in a better engine.

IF your going to be getting new pistons, a mild build and reasonable compresion is 9.5-1 that you can get from ethier Fedral Mougal slugs that Summit racing sells with rings and coated side skirts or KB 107's and a thicker gasket on top to help drop the ratio. The KB's come without rings.

Add the cost of balance and possible rod resizing or (Cheaper) new rods.
 
Also remember that the cars gear ratio & tire size along with the stall converter and cars weight have a big play on how the engine will move the car.

If your absoultely stuck with exhaust manifolds, Comp Cams has cams that are design to be used with exhaust manifolds. There exhaust duration is very long and appears to be off balance from normal cam specs.

The above fella's make good suggestions. The iron intake isn't a bad part for performance, replacement slugs should be cheaper than performance slugs, but will also still require a balance job.

I also agree that a 360 in the small and light A body will perform real well with just minor upgrades to it. The torque output will be alot of fun and tire shredding will be easy.

The 600 CFM Edel. carb on top of the iron intake I have done before. It's a good match for a stock to mild 360 engine. Mate it with the cam of choice to fit the RPM performance range.

I forgot to address the heads. You'll need nothing more than a stock head on top, but, a performance valve job and back cut valve wouldn't hurt at all, just add expense.
 
If you need to bore it out get pistons with a larger then stock Compression Height to raise that compression up.

Like others said you need a dual plane intake on that combo. You can pick up an early cast iron 340 intake that has the correct bolt pattern for your Eddie carb. Or you could to pick up an LD340 in excellent condition for about $150.

Headers would really help it out a lot.
 
id trade or sell the single plane for a dual plane intake...summit makes some pretty cheap manifolds copied from proven designs, or try and find a good used aluminum dual plane for sale...you should post an add on here...i would also go with headers, and see if you can sell those 273 manifolds...never hurts to try, and you can put that money towards some used smallblock headers
 
65barracudadude,

Its funny, I am just finishing building a budget 360 right now.

I bought a 318/904 combo to swap in place of my /6 with a bad 904. It turned out the 318 was seized by rust, but had new rebuilt heads and a new rebuilt 904. I then found a 360 short block and heads to use instead, I used parts off both engines to make one. Here is my combo.

$100.00 Seized 318 and 904 trans
$0.00 Traded wheels for 78 truck 360 shortblock, every thing is good, clean, I used it as-is.
$59.00 new ebay 360 oil pan (360 is different vs 273/318/340).
$0.00 I used the 318 oil pickup, after cleaning
$0.00 318 fuel pump
$0.00 318 water pump
$25.00 Used 70' 340 4bbl iron intake
$22.00 Carter rebuild kit
$0.00 Carter 625 cfm Carb
$25.00 Used 360 balancer
$60.00 Craigslist Headers (new)
$98.00 Summit Cam and lifters 204/[email protected], .420/.440 lift
$22.00 Summit timing Chain
$69.00 Summit Speedpro gasket set
$60.00 Mopar converter balance weights.
$14.00 3" to 2 1/2" header collector reducers
$0.00 Old 2 1/4" dual exhaust from my 68 Dart
$182.00 Schumacher /6 to 360 mounts
$14.00 Summit air cleaner assy.
$25.00 Sprak Plugs, Cap, Rotor.
$20.00 AC small block bracket
$100.00 Misc Paint, lubes, lapping compound, brakeleen, degreaser, sealants, etc.
$895.00 Total cost so far.

As you can see, even though I have been trying to keep costs down, its all the little stuff that pops up and keeps adding to the total.

Overall, not a whole lot of money for a complete 360 swap. My combo should be good for about 320 hp, and about 400 lbft. Not a ton of power, but good for a daily driver. Now I just have to keep my fingers crossed that my 7 1/4 rear will hold up longer than a few days.
 
Oh yes, I agree, sell that single plane, its useless for you combo, its will not add any hp, and just hurt torque. Get an eddy performer or rpm, also, look on ebay, they sell an performer rpm rip-off intake that is around $200 new. Junk the manifolds, they are very restrictive, and only suited to rest 273's. Go with a small carb, about 600 cfm, carter, eddy, hollet, or demon are fine. Summit makes a Holley rip-off for $250. Your cam will start making power around 2000 rpm to 5000 rpm, perfect for a dual plane manifold. I would suggest a 3.23 or 3.55 gears for around town driving, no higher than 3.23 for highway. If you have the high volume pump, use it, but if I had a choice, I would NOT use one for a mild engine, it robs power and may cause the oil pan to go dry at higher rpm's. I am using a std pump in mine.
 
DISCALIMER - I am NOT a professional engine builder, but I have built dozens of them over the past 40 years.
O.K. 65bar, here goes - on the cheap.

Inspect your pistons and if they are good, remove the old rings and use a broken one of those to clean the old carbon build up out of the ring lands. Use a scraper and a light brush on an electric drill to clean the carbon from the piston tops.Buy and install a new set of rings - this is not the place to cheap out. :)
Lightly hone your cylinder walls if you can. If not, I've seen folks do a presentable job with 600 sandpaper. Just don't go straight up and down or straight around - cross hatch the scratch. (I've always used a 3 arm hone with light to medium stones, and have never tried the sandpaper myself.)
Buy new rod and main bearings, after check to ensure the sizing of both. Ie, does the crank have any undersized bearings? If so, get the same sizes. You can use a piece of emery paper and a boot lace to do a home grown polish on the crank journals. Use plastigage to check clearances on ALL bearings. If one is too loose, and another too tight, change them around till you get as close as possible on the clearances.
Use the cam you have, although it won't be ideal.
I'd pass on the Torker II if possible. You'd be better off with a stock cast manifold. The 625 CFM Carter works great on a mild 360 build.
As for the heads, you don't have a lot of options on a tight budget. Check for slop in the guides. You'll have to make the decision how much looseness you'll accept there. You could just have the guides knurled, or have new inserts installed. Knurling normally won't last more than a couple of years. Closely inspect your valves for straight stems, mushrooming on the top where the rockers ride, and make sure there are no burned valves or seats. If everything looks good, you can hand lap your valves, or use a slow speed reversible drill with some lapping compoung. Put the valve stem through the guide, chuck it in the drill, and slowly and gently let the valve touch the seat for an instant then push it off the seat again. Keep doing this in both forward and reverse until you have a really good contact pattern between the valve and seat.
It seems you have the remainer of the parts you need. Your 273 exhaust manifolds aren't the best for power, but let's face it, you're putting in a 360 on the cheap, so you're obviously not expecting a race car, just a good runner. I've used my old 273 exhaust manifolds on my 360 in my 66 for the past 17 or 18 years, and believe me, I've blow away my share of Brand X'ers and a few good Mopars. They are obviously not the answer for maximum power, but they do the job on the cheap.
Put dual exhaust on there, and go have some fun. Oh, and don't do any tire spinning if you still have the 7.25" rear end in there. :)
 
O.K. I've been gone a couple of hours. And boy oh boy did you guy's go to town. I'm going to be more specific. A budget to me is about $1,000. I already know that those manifolds are a BAD idea. But I simply dont have anything else. And I've done some checking around and headers are expensive. That will take a big chunk of my lame budget. So any idea's will be really helpful on that issue. The manifold I have is really not even meant for this motor I dont think. It is an old Edelbrock Street master. I just dont have anything else. I dont even have the original 4 barrel manifold. Which is something I'm not really interested in using anyway. I've done some checking around, and I could probably get a suitable manifold for about $100.00. Some headers for around $500.00- $600.00,unless someone knows something I dont. And the basic rebuild kit for around $250.00- $350.00. There is my $1,000 budget. I'm just not in the market for a better rear end. Right now I'm probably better off just re-building the motor to stock. Or at least make it so I can use the cam I already have. I dont have to use a high volume oil pump. I just have one. All I did is tell you guy's what I already have. I would obviously like to use as much as the parts I already have than to buy new ones. I'm not trying to build anything Fancy or some high powered street machine. I'm going for the most logical thing for me to do with what I have to work with. And obviously get the best I can with what I have. I'm open to any options that are suggested. Most of you guys are going to know better than me. But that is what I have and I would like to use as much of it as possible. O.K. Now lets here what you professionals have to say.?????
 
O.K. I'm waiting for someone to come onto this post and talk to me about this. I just found a stock 4 barrel manifold for my 360. $25.00. So now I'll need an adapter. And I can also get an Edelbrock performer for $75.00. What should I do?? Either way I'll need an adapter. Wich kinda sucks because I just bought a brand new aluminum 1" spacer for my set up. But I'm sure I can just sell it on here. Someone will want it. I'm willing to do what ever will make sense to do. So bring it on.
 
I like the performer only because its aluminum. If you open up the ports to 360 size, it and the stock intake will perform almost exactly the same, but the edelbrock is 1/2 the weight and has both a square and spreadbore flange pattern.

I'd probably install a small cam and leave the rest of it stock then. If you left the stock cam it would be a little bit wimpy.
 
Im lost. Why do you need an adapter for the performer intake? Is it an Edelbrock carb?

The Street Master is not going to cost you low end torque (I've seen them use those on RVs -LOL!), but it will severely impede top end horsepower. It'll probably match up with that cam fairly well, or may actually choke it a little bit.

What kind of valve springs do you have currently?

Like I said, I'd spend some money on good rings. Mill the heads a bit, maybe get a valve job. Windage tray while you've got it apart.

You'd be better off with pistons and a different camshaft, but once you get into a balance job and the like the budget goes out the window.

I think you'd need to change pushrods to use those adjustable rockers.

Steve
 
Thanks to all so far. As of right now it looks like the best way to go for me is buy this $75.00 Edelbrock performer intake. Sell the one I have now. Use the cam I have now. Get some good rings. Mill the heads and get a valve job. And a windage tray. Use the stock rocker arms. And just rebuild it to stock specs. And shop around for some headers. That is what I'm getting out of everyone's responses. Sound good to you dude's????
 
Hmmm. $1K aint much. I think what you have, the intake should be sold and replaced with a factory Thermoquad style, any year (stock 360, if you were closer, I'd give you one). I think the cam should be sold too, and replaced with the Summit. Cam, lifters, springs are $200. The edelbrock carb needs no adaptor as it has both patterns on it. It may need a flat plate Edelbrock sells to seal up, so figure $10 for that. If the engine was running, do not tear into it. IMO, it's best to check a couple rod bearings. If they look good, dont take it apart. Stick the HV pump on it and run it that way. You will need 8 valve retainers to replace the rotators in on the exh valves. Seal it up, have some good duals run off the manifolds, and drive it. It leaves some money for the tuning stuff, oil, filters, belts, etc.
 
abodyjoe said:
they will hurt big time. wait till you see the port size difference. a set of spitfires would help a ton.

and with a cam just above a RV cam you would be better off with a dual plane intake.
Click to expand...


2nd that... That cam, combined with a single plane intake will give you major headaches below 2000rpm and power brakes would be out the window. You will not have any vacuum. Ironically, the 273 heads might actually help...the restriction would aid in preventing all your air/fuel mixture from flowing down the exhaust pipes before ignition.

I am doing a very similar "budget minded" approach. Something that is extremely hard to do once you get rolling. You start to realize that even a simple tear down/rebuild calls for replacing so many parts. Other wise you have a high mileage, pretty, clean dog.

I am by noooo means a pro. Honestly, I am still a novice. I read a great article a few years back (Popular Hot Rodding - July 2006) about camshafts. It helped me to understand the concept of how and why an engine works and therefore how to make it do what you want.
 
I also have some stock 318 heads if that would help me at all. Someone said something about 273 heads so I figured that they may help. Will they?? I went out and checked the 273 manifolds to the 318 heads and the ports on the manifolds were a little bigger than the head ports.
 
use the 360 heads...even with 8:1 compression like many late 70's 360's had, I saw a Mopar Muscle article where they took a stock late 70's smog 360 and put it on the dyno.

Totally stock with a thermoquad and iron 4bbl: 266.2hp/371.3 lb-ft
Replace 360 log manifolds with 1 5/8" headers: 276.9hp/390.7 lb-ft
Change TQ for E-brock q-jet: 276.8hp/377.1 lb-ft
Replace iron manifold with performer EGR: 273hp/368.8 lb-ft
Swap stock cam for Comp XE262: 327hp/391.8 lb-ft
Replace Q-Jet with TQ: 335hp/400.6 lb-ft

So, as you can see, exhaust and cam make a big difference from stock, even on a lowly engine such as that.
 
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