360 build suggestion

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I think I'd look to replace the 3.91s with a set of 4.30s. You'll get more bang for the buck and they're not hard to find used. Otherwise - top end improvements and hopefully a piston that allows for a real camshaft. I still think it's a real stretch - but a set of race gears vs street gears will go a long way to getting 425hp to run 11s.
 
moper said:
I think I'd look to replace the 3.91s with a set of 4.30s. You'll get more bang for the buck and they're not hard to find used. Otherwise - top end improvements and hopefully a piston that allows for a real camshaft. I still think it's a real stretch - but a set of race gears vs street gears will go a long way to getting 425hp to run 11s.
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I have a set of 4.30`s on a spool going in it.
 
HemiTM said:
Faster ramp with the hydraulic cam. We are going outside the box.
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Where are you going to find the lash ramp on that hydraulic cam?

If you want to think outside the box, order a solid cam that is cut with a more aggressive lobe than trying to reinvent the wheel using solids on a hyd cam.

FL or MM lobes from comp. Bullet can cut a cam set up for .904 lifters.

Call any good engine builder and they can order a cam that has faster ramps.
 
HemiTM said:
Here is the latest. All my machine shop work is going to be done at no charge. All I will need to do is put a sticker on my car. I will be running KB191`s with the heads down to 68cc`s and that will bring the compression to 12.5 to 1. There will be extensive work done to the heads. Comp Cams XE285HL with solid lifters. 273 rockers and the appropriate springs and pushrods. Looking for a used M1 and rebuildable 750DP. Stall will be 3000 and the rear end will be changed to 4.30`s with a spool, running a 29 or 30 inch stiffer wall slick to allow the suspension to work better. I think this will perform a little better than my 318.
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What heads...J's, 302's, 587's...??

MAKE SURE whoever does the head work has a good, reliable flow bench and has small block Mopar head EXPERIENCE. These are not Chevy heads. Flow them before any porting is done. Flow them as the port work progresses, etc...etc. Case in point: A buddy has a set of 2.02 X heads that LOOK like a work or art. Excecpt for one thing: They flow WORSE than a STOCK X-head and a STOCK J-head...AND even a stock 587 head. Same bench, same day comparisons.

Mid-High 11's are CAKE with a 3.58" stroke 360 and even near stock heads. You will be better off with more flash in the converter than 3000, though. Which is another word of caution: What/who's converter?? There is alot more to a converter than advertised or assumed stall speed. Slippage in high gear and especially shift point recovery are critical.

Make sure the block is PLATE honed and I would even have the valve job done with plates bolted to the head as well.

What's with the solid lifters on a hydraulic cam? The main advantage of a solid cam is the lobe rate-of-lift vs. a hydraulic so I don't see the point, other than no lifter pump up.....????

I'd bet you'd even hit the goal with those 3.91's and a 26-27" slick. A mild combo might be hurt by a stiff SW tire. You're simply not going to "hit" the suspension hard enough and a stiff SW tire might have issues hooking. On any car part of the suspension IS the tire. Stiff SW's are designed for high HP hard leaving cars. Just food for thought...

Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING ! ! !

Oh by the way, Eagle Field was a hoot! I'll be there next year, hopefully with my Dart to join in the fun.
 
dusterdoug said:
What heads...J's, 302's, 587's...??

MAKE SURE whoever does the head work has a good, reliable flow bench and has small block Mopar head EXPERIENCE. These are not Chevy heads. Flow them before any porting is done. Flow them as the port work progresses, etc...etc. Case in point: A buddy has a set of 2.02 X heads that LOOK like a work or art. Excecpt for one thing: They flow WORSE than a STOCK X-head and a STOCK J-head...AND even a stock 587 head. Same bench, same day comparisons.

Mid-High 11's are CAKE with a 3.58" stroke 360 and even near stock heads. You will be better off with more flash in the converter than 3000, though. Which is another word of caution: What/who's converter?? There is alot more to a converter than advertised or assumed stall speed. Slippage in high gear and especially shift point recovery are critical.

Make sure the block is PLATE honed and I would even have the valve job done with plates bolted to the head as well.

What's with the solid lifters on a hydraulic cam? The main advantage of a solid cam is the lobe rate-of-lift vs. a hydraulic so I don't see the point, other than no lifter pump up.....????

I'd bet you'd even hit the goal with those 3.91's and a 26-27" slick. A mild combo might be hurt by a stiff SW tire. You're simply not going to "hit" the suspension hard enough and a stiff SW tire might have issues hooking. On any car part of the suspension IS the tire. Stiff SW's are designed for high HP hard leaving cars. Just food for thought...

Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING ! ! !

Oh by the way, Eagle Field was a hoot! I'll be there next year, hopefully with my Dart to join in the fun.
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Thanks for the input Doug. I was on the phone with M&H talking to them about tires when I read your post. They agree with you. Going to stay with the 26" slick and experiment with gears.

Glad you enjoyed Eagle Field. There will be a fundraiser dinner on 12/15 in Dos Palos. Look them up on facebook. The guy building my motor is the "Y" block guy who had the convertable white T bird towing his FED. The heads are J heads. The reason for the solid lifters is as you stated..."no lifter pump up". This came from a old mopar guy up in Canada who is good friends with the builder. I am putting it in their hands. I myself am not a engine builder, I`ll be the first to admit that.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to you too!!
 
The parts are all here. Well except for the KB191's. They sent me 181's and those are for a Ferd. But the supplier is promptly fixing the problem.
 
Been a while. Here are a few pictures. Should be completed and installed in about a week.
 

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HemiTM said:
I rec`d this email. What do my fellow FABO members think of this build?

"360 Mopar is a great engine. Most underrated by folks. Get the compression up over 10 to 1 .Kb are good if you look after the extra end gap for the hypereutectic material. Error on the large end. clearance as for marine use. (.001 over spec , finish to 4.031) use Hastings race rings. use a 3/4 or full groove main set. (3/4 is enuf but not always avaiable. Half is not enuf!) good set of Rod bolts. clearance bottom end on the looser side. not crazy but not snug for sure. run a melling or similar Hv pump. Install a windage tray . If you cant get a MP one use a milodon or simlar. (good for about 14 ponies ) try and find NOs 340 steel head gaskets. if not plane an extrra 020 from the head and use blue felpros. Stock head bolts and stock torque settings. Cam. Well if you must run a solid phone Jim Dowel at Racer Brown (phone after 7 PM maryland time or he wont answer.) Get an STX -20 . use the iron 273 style rockers. (no hi ratio deallies.) You will also need pushrods. Run any decent intake including and maybe preferedly a performer RPM. Do not run a tunnel ram . these engine arent happy with that deal. Put the cam in 2 degreees ahead. (106. ) J heads are very good, and little if any difference from the famous X heads. Spend a lot of time under the valve in the pocket. just clean up the rest in normal fashion. If the heads are wonked put in the 2.02s . if not the stocker are up to the job. I tested a set I did here at 268 CFM. That is good for a max of about 580 HP so the heads wont be holding him back. They are usually pretty good for CCs but check them and I know you will. Recurve the distributor cutting down the total advance by 1/3. A 3310 would be the ideal carb with the rear plate conversion for normal jets. up here we run 76 in front and 80 rear with a 5.0 power valve in front. That is for open headers. might be a bit much there so maybe try 74s and 78 s first as our air is a bit denser most days.
Set timing at 36 to start total at 3500.
keep header size same size as exhaust valve. HOWEVER.
I would run a hydraulic. So even though you are on Solid I wll just tell you this for what it is worth. Probably because of the 3000 stall converter a extreme energy hydraulic from comp. They have shortened duration but the fastest ramps in the industry and take full advantage of the Chryco .904" lifter diameter. XE285HL would be my pick. It can be run with as little as 9.5 to1 comp ratio. however above 10 and ideally 10.5 would make a difference. Expect well in excess of 400 Hp . Set shift and gear for 6500- trap speed. Should be an aboslute killer and very reliable. and inexpensive. The type of motor that will make the $ guy mad!. "
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He starts off about right and them fu(ks it up with the comp hyd cam!WTF? LOL
 
You do not need that much comp or to make things difficult to run low 12's or better. I ran 12.20's@110mph in 105 degree Memphis heat with a 2800 converter,3.91 gears and a 272/.454 lift street cam junky J heads 9.9 to 1 comp many years ago. I changed the cam and went 11.80's @ 115mph. I have a local guy that I help running 12.20's @ 3550lbs with 3.73 gears in a truck. 9to1 comp junkyard 360,cams only [email protected]. Lots of ways to skin a cat I guess.
 
This combo might get you close to your goal of 11.6 (emphasis on might), but I don't agree with your engine builder. 12.5:1 compression with a relatively small cam (I won't even talk about the cam/lifter choice :scratch:) and iron heads......well, you either have a detonation machine on pump gas, or you now have to run race gas which will increase the cost of running the car on a weekly basis...and for what? Running low 12's and paying over 7 bucks a gallon for race gas? This should have been set up with a pump gas friendly compression ratio if you were looking for a "budget" build. You can run 11's on pump gas without too much trouble...heck, my junk runs 6.8's in the 1/8 mile on pump gas (that's 10.7's in the 1/4). This is just a waste of money IMO that will cost you more and more every time you want to drive it.

I truly hope you get into the 11.6's like you are hoping, but judging from some of your builders other decisions....I'm thinking low 12's are all you're going to see.
 
flyfish said:
This combo might get you close to your goal of 11.6 (emphasis on might), but I don't agree with your engine builder. 12.5:1 compression with a relatively small cam (I won't even talk about the cam/lifter choice :scratch:) and iron heads......well, you either have a detonation machine on pump gas, or you now have to run race gas which will increase the cost of running the car on a weekly basis...and for what? Running low 12's and paying over 7 bucks a gallon for race gas? This should have been set up with a pump gas friendly compression ratio if you were looking for a "budget" build. You can run 11's on pump gas without too much trouble...heck, my junk runs 6.8's in the 1/8 mile on pump gas (that's 10.7's in the 1/4). This is just a waste of money IMO that will cost you more and more every time you want to drive it.

I truly hope you get into the 11.6's like you are hoping, but judging from some of your builders other decisions....I'm thinking low 12's are all you're going to see.
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x2

:happy1:
 
i dont think that cam with solids is a huge issue... yes he could run a different cam, but that's like "tuning" the build. changing the curve and overall flow numbers.

overall it's a solid build gonna run like a scalded dog BUT it will be a race only car. i dont think the owner minds (he's running a spool and 4.30's so i kinda think this is the case.)

given that it's a race only car there are some benefits to the high comp / smaller cam setup. less lift = less load on the valve springs. solids = he can go over 7k rpms without valve float if the bottom end can take the punishment. even if he shifts at 6000 and misses a gear once in a while it wont miss a beat.

but in the letter he got the guy said "however above 10 and ideally 10.5 would make a difference."

so that is a budget item. since he's going 12.5:1 it's going to have to have race gas and that is big moolah.

if it was me i'd grab another set of heads and get the CC's back higher so the comp ratio is 10.5 MAX, i'd lean toward 10:1 actually with iron heads

just my opinion. getting another set of iron heads is not that costly, he will recoup the money after a couple tanks of fuel lol
 
crackedback said:
Where are you going to find the lash ramp on that hydraulic cam?

If you want to think outside the box, order a solid cam that is cut with a more aggressive lobe than trying to reinvent the wheel using solids on a hyd cam.

FL or MM lobes from comp. Bullet can cut a cam set up for .904 lifters.

Call any good engine builder and they can order a cam that has faster ramps.
Click to expand...

A good solid flat tappet does NOT cost a lot of money...Could have reached your goals alot easier in my opinion, AND not shave the heads to kingdom come so you could run it on pump gas, which is really the only way to race on a budget imo
 
Everyone is entitled to the opinions. I feel our build willl be OK. It will be in the car Tuesday and hopefully running at Famoso on Saturday (weather permitting). I will post time slips after the test and tune.

moparlover, the E85 fuel sounds interesting. I am going to read up on that. Thanks for your support.

Compression ended up being 12 to 1.
 
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