415HP from 318ci IS POSSABLE!!

[moper]

I like to hang around and see where these threads go...lol. Personally, I know when I'm going thru the "what should I build" with a customer I take everything into account. Budget, cores, timetables, use, etc. Using any of the EM builds for a street engine recipe is a mistake. At least the ones that win anyway. They are purpose-built dyno mules. Also, forget any race fuel or alternative fuels. One could build for E-85, but it's not anything I can really give input on. I've never tried it. So when I look at the ideas, let's say we only have a 318, and it has to live as a street car that sometimes races. I can't build a true performance engine for $2500 even starting with factory used cores. Not including parts and labor. I can build a stock long block and stick a cam in it. But that won't reach the levels being asked about. Those being 425hp or 1.3hp per inch. Stock pistons dont have a valve relief I'm aware of, and zero decking(or coming close) does't allow for much of a cam. At least nothing on the order of what would be needed to make that kind of power. Because the stroke is so short you have to rev it to get that power. You'll need a cam to make power up at 6500, and there's a very good chance that this cam will need valve reliefs. I know any choices of mine would. Another thought is the heads. You can whittle away a set of factory 318 heads of any vintage. It's your time. But again, to make 425 hp at the crank, you need a port that will move about 240cfm. The J style castings will, as will some Magnums.... but it will take a bit of knowledge and skill to get a 318 sized port to flow that, and remember, using the factory piston... it has to move that much under .500 lift. Going back to budget... Give me another $1500 and we can do it or exceed that number with decent parts. My build, and strictly my opnion, would be this: Any year 318... KB167s with the deck squared and set to bring the pistons .010 out of the bore. EQ Magnums w/the LA intake pattern, no porting, but assembled with long Chevy valves for more lift capability and chamber set to 56ccs. Stock crank, indexed, stroke corrected, and turned/polished; Stock rods w/good bolts. Block align honed; bored and plate honed, the assembly internally balanced. I'd run the XE274H cam. It's simple and effective, and has about .500 lift at the valve after the 1.6 rocker conversion and pushrod angle loss. The intake use is an RPM Air Gap and I'd want to run a larger carb... the Edelbrock Thunder AVS 750 would be my choice as I think it would make better power with no issues of tuning or idle quality and have at least as good if not better throttle response than a smaller carb. This engine would be for 91 octane pump unleaded. Tight quench, small chamber, 10.75:1, and the final cost carb to pan (give or take) would be around $4800 with the new carb and intake.

 

[BJR Racing]

But he has a $2,500.00 limit, and your cost is nearly double what he has to spend. Not saying that your combo wouldn't do it but there are cheaper ways to get the same results. Already been there done that, even if I charged him for a complete engine I personally don't see more than about $3,500.00 for the engine. If he wants I would sell him the engine that I have for that and it makes way more power than what hes looking for. And it's not a stroker it's a 318. But this is my personal opinion.

 

[nemesis]

Glad to have you over here from so far away. You should put your location under your name. Theres a small gaggle of fellas on your side of the ocean here.

Thanks,im glad to be on the board!
I enjoy :read2: bout everything.
I gotta do alot of things lol,stil got to introduce myself properly.
I will when the dart i bought from over gets here :cheers:
Hopefully in 1 piece lol. An show yous also my chrysler valiant
charger,An aus built only car which the odd 1 has been posted on
here...

 

[moper]

But he has a $2,500.00 limit, and your cost is nearly double what he has to spend. Not saying that your combo wouldn't do it but there are cheaper ways to get the same results. Already been there done that, even if I charged him for a complete engine I personally don't see more than about $3,500.00 for the engine. If he wants I would sell him the engine that I have for that and it makes way more power than what hes looking for. And it's not a stroker it's a 318. But this is my personal opinion.

I didnt mention a longer stroke. I specificaly stayed off that path. I don't see you being able to do what he's asking for that figure, using the parts you've outlined. Not that much flywheel hp. Not using the pistons or heads you suggest. Not with him doing the porting. Not with skimping on the few operations that make or break a build. I said I could do a stock longblock with a cam for that, but there's now way in hell it will make 425hp. 325, sure. Pretty easy. But thats where the cheap stops and better parts have to be used plus more labor costs become mandatory. That was my point. Now as far as machining costs... I'm in CT and I have to pay CT performance shop labor costs too. God knows we aren't called the most expensive state in the Union for nothing. It's nice to hear all these ideas and no disrespect intended. But I dont see the numbers as provided adding up. Not for what he needs, and not with what he has to spend. I would say do it, account for every nut and bolt, and stick it on a dyno to see if it works. I dont think you can do it.

 

[rumblefish360]

Location of where one lives can have a cost break. But then again, the pay check may be different as well.

$2500 isn't to much to build apon and I would suggest a bigger bank roll for this. Better off waiting rather than trying with less money and possible cost over runs.

I'm more so with Moper on the piston selection and would rather go that route and zero deck them.

Last comment;

415 or even more HP from a teen is fine to go for and actually do and then brag about. Go for it if you want to do it. Just don't get hung up on HP numbers because it comes at a loss of torque expense witch is actually a better asset to have.

Big HP numbers reduce drivabilty and to get it back requires steeper gears and higher stall converters which are a draw back for a street car and reliabilty/longevity issues.

Have I been there? Yes.
Was it fun? Yes.
Will I do it again? Yes
Do I expect it to live long and travel the country? Hell no. But a terror around town for a season or two is all it'll do and do it just fine.

 

[BJR Racing]

I just sat down and figured it up and I can only come up to $3,835.00 with me doing everything including the head work, assembly and buying all the parts, doing all the machining. This includes grinding the crank, shot peening the rod's and resizing them, new pistons and rings. Gaskets, and oil pump, chain and gears, cam and lifters, adj. rockers and pushrods to fit. Square decking the block, line boreing, boreing and honeing with TQ plates. Decking the heads and machining the intake face, multi angle valve job, bowl porting, flow benching, intake manifold, new rod bolts, new valves and springs, retainers and locks, machining the heads for seals and larger springs. A new set of head bolts, mopar thin gaskets.

Now if he does his own head work then the price will come down about $700.00. Now I can't say what the heads would be like when there done if the customer does them. But I do know that when I'm done with them the engine will make well over 425 HP at the flywheel. The engine that I would build would be similar to the 322 engine, and that engine puts almost 400 HP to the tires, not at the flywheel. If he wants one I'll do one for him for $3,835.00 with everything listed.

Figure up how much HP it takes to push a 3,330 lbs car 11.40's 1/4 on pump gas and then figure what the HP is at the flywheel. The least that it can take is 375 HP to the tires, so I guess that makes the engine well over 400 HP at the flywheel. Through drivetarin and frictional losses, and pumping losses.

So as far as I'm concerned I don't have to prove anything as I've been doing this for years. I'm sorry that you can't. Maybe you should move south where prices are a good bit cheaper. A complete blueprinting of a virgin block is only about a $1,000.00 or so CNC'd.

 

[Smooth69Dart]

I just sat down and figured it up and I can only come up to $3,835.00 with me doing everything including the head work, assembly and buying all the parts, doing all the machining. This includes grinding the crank, shot peening the rod's and resizing them, new pistons and rings. Gaskets, and oil pump, chain and gears, cam and lifters, adj. rockers and pushrods to fit. Square decking the block, line boreing, boreing and honeing with TQ plates. Decking the heads and machining the intake face, multi angle valve job, bowl porting, flow benching, intake manifold, new rod bolts, new valves and springs, retainers and locks, machining the heads for seals and larger springs. A new set of head bolts, mopar thin gaskets.

Now if he does his own head work then the price will come down about $700.00. Now I can't say what the heads would be like when there done if the customer does them. But I do know that when I'm done with them the engine will make well over 425 HP at the flywheel. The engine that I would build would be similar to the 322 engine, and that engine puts almost 400 HP to the tires, not at the flywheel. If he wants one I'll do one for him for $3,835.00 with everything listed.

Figure up how much HP it takes to push a 3,330 lbs car 11.40's 1/4 on pump gas and then figure what the HP is at the flywheel. The least that it can take is 375 HP to the tires, so I guess that makes the engine well over 400 HP at the flywheel. Through drivetarin and frictional losses, and pumping losses.

So as far as I'm concerned I don't have to prove anything as I've been doing this for years. I'm sorry that you can't. Maybe you should move south where prices are a good bit cheaper. A complete blueprinting of a virgin block is only about a $1,000.00 or so CNC'd.

I tell you what BJR...that is a scream 'n price for a 400+HP 318...I did have a original budget of $2500 bucks...but just remember I am a old Ford guy and Ford and Chevy parts are way cheaper then Mopar...so if $1300 is the breaking point of a well built 318, then it must be worth every cent...I live in El Paso, TX and I'm sure to ship that engine would cost an arm and a leg...would you think it would cost $500 or more?...my boss has a stroked 360 that is now a 390 that he says buts out 600+HP but he wants 7K for that engine, way beyond what I want to pay and more HP then I want for a daily driver...I am waiting on a buyer to take my '61 Ranchero Restomod...when that sells...I will be sending you a PM and in need of the engine you suggest...I know a lot about building motors for the average do-it-yourselfer...like the basic gasket match and simple deburring of the casting, cam setting and such, I just don't have the high dollar equipment that makes it just right...I will agree that having you do the head work and having a flow machine is the only way to go...so if I do the crate mail thing, I am certain that you would need a core, right...if I have to mail the 2 engines, I might as well make a road trip and deliver mine and pick the new one up...it will probably be way cheaper the sending UPS.

As with the response reguarding moper...some engine builders add a cost for handling the parts or he lives in a very high end area where he pays a ton to rent his space and really has no control over what he can charge cuz he has bills to pay...either way I know which way I will go...I believe that BJR knows what I want and can deliver for a price that goes with todays economy...I am also curious as to what sized carb that will go with your combo, cuz you never mentioned that in your quote...and second, do you do dyno's as well, for a added expense I'm sure...it would just be nice to know what the 318 acyually does...it would make for a great dissicussion here when I do get one.

 

[nemesis]

my boss has a stroked 360 that is now a 390 that he says buts out 600+HP..

Can he prove it?
Thats the difference.

You right,for that money,you cant go wrong,save an get it built by bjr mr smoothdart!

 

[Moparmal]

Well, it seems to me that we can critique the various builds down to the bone on the issue of price - but Im not sure it proves anything - especially if you don't know the builders track records.

I’d hazard a guess- and its ONLY a guess, that a large slice of Moper’s increase costs lie with the EQ heads and valve gear, as opposed to Bobby’s cast ported “factory” set up, and the fact Bobby does his own machining…that’s $1200 right there.

So its “horses for courses”, plenty of guys don’t want to take the risk of core shift in porting cast heads, and will see the EQ heads as a “necessary”, not an option.

Others will see the budget approach of using cast ehads and say "cool deal".

Moving on - What staggers me is that the cam profiles are not huge, and that even the lowly 318 head can produce real HP if worked right.

I do have some questions though,

Bobby – in the 322 post you claimed:

470 HP at the flywheel and 376 to the ground.

Yet earlier in this thread you mentioned you’d change things for a more streetable build - and claimed:

This engine would be good to 6,000 RPM's. This engine would make 219 HP and 384 FT. Lbs TQ @ 3,000 RPM's and 484 FT.Lbs peak @ 4,500 RPM's and 501 HP @ 6,000.

Did you mean 401HP @ 6000 or am I missing something? Shouldn’t the more streetable build be lower in crank HP?

Bobby / Dave – I’d appreciate both of yours recommendations on an appropriate gear ratio/stall/tyre size for this type of highly strung 400HP 318 - What do you think the minimum should be to avoid this type of engine behaving like a complete pig for street duty?

 

[moper]

lol... I still say the numbers dont add up for me using his application as a guide, and I respectfully disagree with your reasoning. That's all. Two different ways to skin a cat. ET based on power and drag car, and power and street car. I base this on the fact that the car you are talking about is a pure drag car. 5.86 gearing? Are you kidding me? How can that even possibly relate to real world? Place that 322 in a car with full muffled exhaust with street headers (not the track decibel allowed, but a street system), gear it with 3.55s and a 2500 convertor and see how it runs. As far as yout costs... You are down south, where dollars go much farther. My impression is your shop is not "state of the art". Which is fine because you can personally produce the high quality work. As far as me and my overhead... I bought a new farm tractor after I bought my farm back in the divorce. (finalized a month ago...) That's overhead I guess... Otherwise, I have none. The pricing I pay is local retail on machining and parts... plus shipping and taxes. I make my money of assembly, break-in, and sonic testing. The shop I use for all my machining is Larry's Auto Machine, www.larryspower.com, which just moved into a brand new building that IS state of the art. Maybe that's why the prices are so high. But, Gary has every gadget he needs to consistently machine ultra high quality stuff. Well, almost all. My cranks go to Rick "Smiley" Smilnac at Crankshafts Incorporated. He was one of my teachers in the late 80s and is THE man for crank work around me. I believe in paying for the quality. Maybe you should raise your rates ?

 

[BJR Racing]

Mal,
The 501 HP is without the air correction factors, the 470 is with the air correction factors. Flywheel to flywheel. I changed the intake and the carb and hedder size, this is where it picked up the TQ and changed the HP some in the lower RPM ranges. Doing this made it much more streetable. The engine that I used is the 322 and in race trim it made 535 HP and just over 500 ft lbs of TQ.

As for tires and gear I would use a 3.55 or 3.73 and a 3500 stall and a 28" tire. The actual stall will be much lower I would guess somewhere around 2800.

Smooth,
I've made trips to TX. before and I could do it again, it cost me about $400.00 rd trip. But your a bit further so maybe a couple of hundred more. I went to Warren,TX. last year to deliver a 360 street engine to a repeat customer. How much farther would you think EL Paso is from Houston? I'm just using this as a reference point, I haven't looked.

The carb would be a 750 cfm. And yes dynoing would be more, but have access to them. I priced this using your cores. If your in a hurry you could hear the 322 engine run and take it with you 1 hr. later. I'm not that fond of any engine that I build. I've had many customers say that they want the heads that I run because they think that there's something trick in them, most of the time I use my engine to figure out what works and what doesn't, kind of a test mule. I think that 7.40 @ 96 mph 1/8 is a good test for 87 octane fuel, as this is what it ran just 2 monts ago.

 

[BJR Racing]

lol... I still say the numbers dont add up for me using his application as a guide, and I respectfully disagree with your reasoning. That's all. Two different ways to skin a cat. ET based on power and drag car, and power and street car. I base this on the fact that the car you are talking about is a pure drag car. 5.86 gearing? Are you kidding me? How can that even possibly relate to real world? Place that 322 in a car with full muffled exhaust with street headers (not the track decibel allowed, but a street system), gear it with 3.55s and a 2500 convertor and see how it runs. As far as yout costs... You are down south, where dollars go much farther. My impression is your shop is not "state of the art". Which is fine because you can personally produce the high quality work. As far as me and my overhead... I bought a new farm tractor after I bought my farm back in the divorce. (finalized a month ago...) That's overhead I guess... Otherwise, I have none. The pricing I pay is local retail on machining and parts... plus shipping and taxes. I make my money of assembly, break-in, and sonic testing. The shop I use for all my machining is Larry's Auto Machine, www.larryspower.com, which just moved into a brand new building that IS state of the art. Maybe that's why the prices are so high. But, Gary has every gadget he needs to consistently machine ultra high quality stuff. Well, almost all. My cranks go to Rick "Smiley" Smilnac at Crankshafts Incorporated. He was one of my teachers in the late 80s and is THE man for crank work around me. I believe in paying for the quality. Maybe you should raise your rates ?

Your correct maybe I should raise my rates, and I/we don't run 5.86 gears, the car that the engine is in is a 3,330 lbs street Duster full glass and steel doors, stock suspension as produced. Yes we stepped the gear up to a 4.86 but we also run 30" tall tires 10.5 wide, so a 4.10 and a 28" would work out the same. Oh and for hedders we have the 1 5/8" shortys with a 2 1/2" tubing through free flowing exh., I hope this equates to a street car.

 

[stroked 340]

don't get discouraged by all the negative 318 talk,it's still head and shoulders above the 360.When they dropped the 340 in favor of the 360 it was a cold day at mopar.With it's long stroke and short rod ratio all they created was a pig.Not to say you can't create smething more out of it but why?If you want a fast drag car there are much cheaper ways of going about it without ruining aclassic car.The 318 has almost as much potential as a 340 and easier to come by.With the right cam along with a good dual plane intake and the right gears and 904 tranny (not 727)it has less rotating mass,it will spank a 360.The 318 and 340 rev quicker and in a light A-body it's by far the best combo buck for buck.I run a 1995 magnum 318 with xe264 cam with a power-product intake with Edelbock 750 and otherwise stock 9.5 comp.ratio motor in my 66 valiant along with a turboaction 904 and get 20+ highway and will run 13's all day long.Maybe not the fastest but thats not why I built her,she brings back memories of my duster and cudas of the past and looks good to boot.So don't give up your thoughts about doing a 318,I think you'll be very pleased with what you end up with.

Similarly built a 318 WON'T touch a 360 keep dreaming...and it'll cost more money to get the same power out of the 318...

 

[Smooth69Dart]

my boss has a stroked 360 that is now a 390 that he says buts out 600+HP..

Can he prove it?
Thats the difference.

You right,for that money,you cant go wrong,save an get it built by bjr mr smoothdart!

No I can't, that is why I am not buying the motor...it looks pretty with a bunch or billet parts bolted on but no dyno papers.

I think you have me wrong nemesis...I am not saying that you don't know what your doing as I am certain that you build some nice motors...I'm just saying that BJR has the upper advantage because he does it all, himself...if you didn't have to farm out the block machine and crank grinding then maybe you could get your prices down a bit...so besides doing some head work, you basically just bolt the assembly together and balance and blue print...that can be very time consuming...especially if you have to send the crank or block back out cuz it's not within specs:salute:

 

[nemesis]

No I can't, that is why I am not buying the motor...it looks pretty with a bunch or billet parts bolted on but no dyno papers.

I think you have me wrong nemesis...I am not saying that you don't know what your doing as I am certain that you build some nice motors...I'm just saying that BJR has the upper advantage because he does it all, himself...if you didn't have to farm out the block machine and crank grinding then maybe you could get your prices down a bit...so besides doing some head work, you basically just bolt the assembly together and balance and blue print...that can be very time consuming...especially if you have to send the crank or block back out cuz it's not within specs:salute:

Oh thats good!
I agree with you about that!
If your bosses motor is Not proven,dont buy it!

I think you must of misread or i mistyped somewhere lol
What im saying is if I were you,id save the extra money
an get it put together by bjr. I wouldnt bother doing it myself!
Hope that cleared some things up!

Best of luck with everything smoothdart:cheers:

 

[moper]

Your correct maybe I should raise my rates, and I/we don't run 5.86 gears, the car that the engine is in is a 3,330 lbs street Duster full glass and steel doors, stock suspension as produced. Yes we stepped the gear up to a 4.86 but we also run 30" tall tires 10.5 wide, so a 4.10 and a 28" would work out the same. Oh and for hedders we have the 1 5/8" shortys with a 2 1/2" tubing through free flowing exh., I hope this equates to a street car.

I hope you dont mind double quotes...

We run 1/8 mile here and I have a 5200 PTC converter and a 5.43 gear with 29.9 X 10.5 tires. The little engine needs all the help that it can get.

So far, I count one 322, that made 500 pound feet, ran 96 in the eigth, on methanol, race fuel, and 87 octane, with gearing from 5.43 to 4.86 and a 5200 convertor. I count that as 2 street cars, and two race cars that run pump fuel
I'm just having fun with you now Bobby, I hope you dont mind. I still want to see a stock 89 piston anywhere close to the deck and a cam that will make 500 pound feet in a 322 that dont kiss hard.

 

[BJR Racing]

Yep your right, there are 2 different cars, the top one is a friend of mine that I put the engine down in his car and the other is mine. I figured that someone would say that it isn't in a street car so thats why we put it in his as it's a street car. The 96 MPH pass was on gas not alcohol and 87 octane to show streetablity. The time when it was in my car it ran 7.30 @ 99.78 MPH and thats when it was alcohol.

I tried to copy and paste the dyno sheet but it wouldn't let me do it so I copied the info and this is what it is, for HP and TQ. I didn't put the 250 increments in as this took enough space the way it is. This is the measurements at the flywheel.

RPM's...............HP............TQ
3000...............234...........410
3500...............289...........434
4000...............373...........490
4500...............430...........502
5000...............475...........499
5500...............511...........488
6000...............538...........471
6500...............530...........428
7000...............497...........373
7500...............443...........310

The 85-89 pistons are .025 taller than the regular stock 318 pistons, so if the std. piston is .060 below deck and the square decking takes .020-.025 for a cleanup of the deck then the .025 taller 85-89 pistons and you are now .010-.015 below deck with a 85-89 piston. Now add a .020-.022 MP gasket and you have the right quench with 302 heads. Now use the right camshaft and the HP and TQ go's up and up. Cylinder pressures mimic 12.5:1. I thought that you had done this already. LOL

 

[rumblefish360]

I did, I did!!!!!!

(Ducks and hides from telling tall tales....)

 

[Smooth69Dart]

Wow!!...those are some impressive dyno numbers...and the cool factor is to see the max torque stops at 4500rpm w/430HP!!...I find it amazing to see the HP just keep climbing and climbing...very impressive in deed!:toothy10:

Well done BJR:cheers:

 

[nemesis]

I just like the thought spinning the thing to 7500 rpm...
An surviving haha

 

[moper]

The 85-89 pistons are .025 taller than the regular stock 318 pistons, so if the std. piston is .060 below deck and the square decking takes .020-.025 for a cleanup of the deck then the .025 taller 85-89 pistons and you are now .010-.015 below deck with a 85-89 piston. Now add a .020-.022 MP gasket and you have the right quench with 302 heads. Now use the right camshaft and the HP and TQ go's up and up. Cylinder pressures mimic 12.5:1. I thought that you had done this already. LOL

I havent built a 318 in years because no one wants me to.
But you still didnt answer my question.. which was once again:
-Given the right tight quench
-Given a piston with very little valve reliefs (see pic)
-Given the cam must be large enough in both lift and duration to put out 500+ horsepower by your own admission, albeit in a confusing hodge podge of scenarios and fuel types...

What do you do about valve to piston clearance?

Because even my small hydraulic cam engines need those valve reliefs when the quench distance is properly set. I'll typically have .200" of piston to valve clearance on the intakes and that's with a valve relief that's .300 deep (apprx twice+ as deep as pictured) in the piston top and a .039 gasket. You're talking about running tighter than that by a bunch. A cam can mimic 12.5:1 in cylinder pressure in a street rpm (say under 5K). But it would require the intake valve to be closed earlier in relation to the piston position and having little overlap for those that might be interested in how that works. A small cam like that will not make 500+hp at higher rpms, nor will it make 500 pound feet plus torque down low. So how does it all fit together and get those numbers? I still can't see how the physics is working there. It's all too rosie smelling. My build starts with a piston that has performance reliefs. This would be why.

 

[Moparmal]

Slightly OT -

This engine makes 470 HP at the flywheel ..........
Actual ET and MPH
7.534 @ 96.24 1/8 mile

The car hits the scale @ 3150 with the driver, 1970 Duster streetable.
904 trans. with PTC 5200 flash stall converter

Ran this through the Moroso rule and checks out almst exactly - More proof if anyone needs it that the Moroso rule gives you HP at the crank.

 

[BJR Racing]

Moper,
As you stated you don't and haven't built a 318 for anyone lately, but if you look at the depth of the valves in a 318 head either a 302 or a early version, the valves are down from the deck in a uncut head .110-.120 then add the gasket in and you have more clearence. Most 318 heads have very little cut off of them, as the chambers are small to start with.

Now using my example, a 318 with the 85-89 pistons and the block square decked and the piston in the hole .015 and a .020-.022 gasket and the valve being .100 down in the chamber and you now have .137 piston to valve clearence @ TDC. Most cams don't have fast enough ramps to make the valve hit the pistons before the piston is on it's way down. Unles your using a full race cam with 270 or more @ .050 duration and a low centerline. But this isn't what I was talking about either. I have run pistons .020 out of the block and run a 266 @ .050 cams and a .040 gasket without valve reliefs and NEVER touched a valve to the piston top. And the cam had a 106 CL the cam was a .590 from mopar, but this is on my BB. I ended up with .080 valve to piston clearence. The engine was at 10.84:1 compression.

But anyways with the 322 that I have now the pistons come out of the block .017 and I use a .055 gasket and I have .320 V to P clearence. And yes the pistons are valve relieved but they didn't need to be, but this is how they came. And the cam is a 290-A .540/300 255 @ .050 with 106/114 CL. So could I run this cam in a engine without valve reliefs, sure as the valve reliefs are only .200 deep, this still gives me .120 V to P clearence, just as I stated before.

On my short stroke BB a 3.38 which is just .070 larger than the 318 at 3.31 and with a .480 hyd. cam I was making over 500 HP that you can't seem to make. The OL was only 60* of crank rotation it also had 177 psi for cylinder pressures at cranking. The 322 has 165 cranking pressure, a little less due to bore and stroke size. But running pressures are just under 200 psi. Maybe your not looking in the right place as you always think bigger is better, longer strokes, bigger heads, ect.,ect..

I look at it this way, anyone can build a engine, but take the littlest engine and and research it, then find out what it takes to make it work with the factory stuff and then fine tune the parts. Machine it properly and use the right heads and do the right modifications to the heads and all of a sudden you have a engine that makes as much power as one with 100 more CI's. I've seen many 408 CI engines that can't run as fast as the 322 in a 3,330 lbs car that it's in. But there are some out there that are in lighter cars that do. Now I'm not saying that I'm going to compete with everyone out there that has a 408, I'm just stating whats at our local track and surrounding area. And most of them don't run iron heads or small mech. cams they have rollers and eddy's, which should give them the advantage. And it does, but when they say how much they have in there engines and hear what we have in ours they don't tend to say too much.

I've had many come and ask what the engine size is that we run and they say 340? 360?, you have what? a 318. Then they say, man you have one of the fastest 318's I've ever seen. The next ? they ask is now how much do you have in it, then they really get shocked, when I tell them I would sell the engine to them for $3,500.00, less carb and ign. Once again velocity and cylinder filling is the key to making HP and TQ. The more effectively the engine does this the more HP and TQ it will make.

Once again the heads are 302's with 1.78 and 1.50 valves, they flow 230 @ .500 on the intake and 188 @ .500 on the exh.. The VE is over 105 @ 4K and peaks @ over 112 @ peak TQ and is still over 103 @ 6,500 rpm's. Physics as a whole would tend to say that when something is 100% that nothing else could possiably be better. But then how can a engine become more than 100% effeicient? But they do, so I guess that physics can't apply here.

 

[moper]

Shady Dell's RPM heads flow 288 at 28" and .550 lift. I am not sure of the volume. the flow was verified within 3% by a local shop and a different bench/operator. On the dyno (two independant ones actually because we were chaing an oiling problem and the first shop was being a twit), the 408 they reside on peaks at 114%VE at 6K, it passes 100% at 2800. It makes 557hp at 6500 rpm with a solid roller of .600 lift and 92 octane. The car it's in is a 3400lbs car (all steel car, mild steel cage, mildy overweight driver , 727, used NO2 convertor) with 4.10s and 28s that runs 11.20s on motor with 115° track temps(Vegas). This is a modern custom roller by Ryan at Shady Dell and it needs the reliefs with the 2.02s. I didnt build this one, nor have anything to do with machining other than direction from CT to CA on what they needed to do. This is why I say I see issues with your physics. Physics easilly can cover why the readings go beyond 100%. You already know this and you're just being cute now...lol. With your commenting that you may have moved beyond physics I guess it's time to just say "ok". I can compete with imagination. So, Ok Bobby, I will trust completely that you know more than any other person on 318s and 302 heads and getting Top Fuel results on a specatators budget...lol .

 

[BJR Racing]

The reason that they also had to run valve reliefs in the pistons is because of the 2.02 valves. They tend to sit higher in the chambers. They also used Eddy's RPM's which have shallower chambers where the valve sits than the stock iron one too.

I don't have a clue as to who did what on that engine but, and I really don't care. But with a set of heads that flow that much and a roller cam that large should make a good bit more than 557 HP even on pump gas. Maybe they should change the cam to one that works better. Man we ran that fast with a 360 .030 in the 3,330 lbs duster that the 322 is in now, on pump gas. And it didn't have 2.02's either, it had 1.88's.

Your last sentence is actually more true than you think. I used my knowledge from the 8 + years of working with Top Alcohol cars and applied it to the small engines. Better yet check this out 5,042,440 # patent from back in 1991, from August 27 of that year. All you have to do is look up US patents and that # and maybe this will help you understand why my engines run so well.

What I do know is the fact that when Kurt Johnson first started racing he had these heads on his engine, it was in 1992 and the car it was in was Dick Scribners Torco oil backed Olds Cutlass. Needless to say Kurt beat Warren his dad in the finals. These were the heads that were on that engine and in that car.