440 power gains/ aluminum head advantages?

[NoahSewal]

Getting my 440 swapped 74 dart dialed in good finally thanks to help on here and lots of tuning. it rides good and runs great. but i'm a bit disappointed by how much power it has. it's a mild build but i expected more out of it and wanted to know what you guys would do to get more out of it. it's a strip car that i drive on the weekends. stock stroke 440 with cast open chamber heads, 2355f pistons, stock rods and cast crank, .505 hydraulic flat tappet lift cam with 108 lobe sep and 280ish advertised duration. and an 800cfm holley. with the 3500 stall converter, fmvb, 4:56 gears and caltracs with 10.5in slicks it'll spin if you punch it from a dead stop on the street but if you mash the pedal cruising in any gear it doesn't pull like i'd expect. and i've got it tuned pretty good with my setup. would going closed chamber aluminum heads be a good place to start? idk if the better compression and flow advantages would be noticeable with my setup. at some point i'd like to go roller valvetrain with a better cam. any other places you guys would see as a bottle neck for torque? i'm sure i left some stuff out so any advice or questions would be appreciated!

 

[OldmanRick]

You have some gear and the converter is decent enough for that cam, so what is your actual comp ratio and what intake are you running...

P.S. Was the cam degreed in...

 

[PRH]

My answer isn’t really an answer…….

Before making any recommendations I’d suggest quantifying what you have.
In other words…….. time for some track results so you can put a number on it.

Imo, it’s got too much gear in it now, so I wouldn’t be expecting big mph out of it in the 1/4.

Does it have headers on it?
A decent intake manifold?

If it’s a “no” to either of those, that’s where I’d start.

If you haven’t done one yet, I’d do a cranking compression test.

 

[fishmens67]

Do you have headers? More info would be good.
You say the tuning is sorted out and I think that's where most of the problem exists.
A stock low compression 440 should tear the hides off and pull until the valves float.

 

[RustyRatRod]

That's a mighty big and expensive change you're thinkin about when there could still be some left in the tune. Can you get specific with your tune? We might can help more. Now if you just WANT aluminum heads, then that's a different matter altogether.

 

[Ceedawg]

Timing Timing Timing, try 36 degrees all in at 1500 rpm, see if that don’t make your neck snap.

 

[NoahSewal]

You have some gear and the converter is decent enough for that cam, so what is your actual comp ratio and what intake are you running...

P.S. Was the cam degreed in...

compression ratio around 9.5:1. i did not degree the cam and regret it. i'm 19 and this is my first serious build so i didn't even know about it lol. if i pull the heads for something i want to degree it.

 

[NoahSewal]

My answer isn’t really an answer…….

Before making any recommendations I’d suggest quantifying what you have.
In other words…….. time for some track results so you can put a number on it.

Imo, it’s got too much gear in it now, so I wouldn’t be expecting big mph out of it in the 1/4.

Does it have headers on it?
A decent intake manifold?

If it’s a “no” to either of those, that’s where I’d start.

If you haven’t done one yet, I’d do a cranking compression test.

My answer isn’t really an answer…….

Before making any recommendations I’d suggest quantifying what you have.
In other words…….. time for some track results so you can put a number on it.

Imo, it’s got too much gear in it now, so I wouldn’t be expecting big mph out of it in the 1/4.

Does it have headers on it?
A decent intake manifold?

If it’s a “no” to either of those, that’s where I’d start.

If you haven’t done one yet, I’d do a cranking compression test.

yes tti headers and edelbrock torquer manifold ran 9.1 in the 1/8th with 2.0 60ft at 80mph. was a lot slower than i expected. i also ran that when i didn't dial timing in so it was too retarded at idle and too advanced at all in. now i have it locked in at 36

 

[NoahSewal]

Do you have headers? More info would be good.
You say the tuning is sorted out and I think that's where most of the problem exists.
A stock low compression 440 should tear the hides off and pull until the valves float.

yes tti shorty headers. tuning went as far as messing with pv according to vacuum and messing with timing until i locked it at 36 where it seems happy. i have an A/F ratio gauge installed and idles at 13.5ish and cruising is 12.5 and wot is 13. gone through plugs to get it cleaned up so they're good now not getting fouled

 

[NoahSewal]

Timing Timing Timing, try 36 degrees all in at 1500 rpm, see if that don’t make your neck snap.

i have it locked at 36 now. runs a lot better than it did before. just seems under powered from like 2.5k rpm up. especially in 3rd with the most resistance against the engine

 

[NoahSewal]

That's a mighty big and expensive change you're thinkin about when there could still be some left in the tune. Can you get specific with your tune? We might can help more. Now if you just WANT aluminum heads, then that's a different matter altogether.

i replied to fishmens67 with the main stuff i've done with tuning. watched and read a lot of things about what i need to look out for especially with a cam like this but im sure there's tons of little things ive looked over as far as tuning

 

[RustyRatRod]

i replied to fishmens67 with the main stuff i've done with tuning. watched and read a lot of things about what i need to look out for especially with a cam like this but im sure there's tons of little things ive looked over as far as tuning

If you have the distributor locked, I'm out. I don't have any experience with that, nor do I recommend it, so my advice would be pointless.

 

[NoahSewal]

If you have the distributor locked, I'm out. I don't have any experience with that, nor do I recommend it, so my advice would be pointless.

what would you recommend with a cam in my range for timing curve? i played with it a lot and at idle it wants as much advance as i can give it and anything over 40 degrees at 3k and it pings like crazy. ive have a feeling it's something with the degree of my cam but haven't ever pulled the front of the engine apart to check it out. starting from 36 degrees idle as i pull it further back the idle gets lower and rougher and once im around 20 it is really crappy from a stop to get going.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yeah, that's too much total anyway. Generally, big blocks like a little less total than small blocks. Most times in the 30-34 degree range. That's a fairly lumpy camshaft, so I would recommend trying the vacuum advance on manifold vacuum with about 40 degrees initial with the vacuum advance hooked up at idle. Then limit the total to 34 degrees all in by 3000 and see how it does.

 

[NoahSewal]

Yeah, that's too much total anyway. Generally, big blocks like a little less total than small blocks. Most times in the 30-34 degree range. That's a fairly lumpy camshaft, so I would recommend trying the vacuum advance on manifold vacuum with about 40 degrees initial with the vacuum advance hooked up at idle. Then limit the total to 34 degrees all in by 3000 and see how it does.

okay so i've got some things confused i think. so right now ive got no vacuum advance and locked at 36 so it should be 36 all the time. you would recommend get it so its idling at 40 degrees with vacuum advanced hooked up. but i always thought as your engine revs up it pulls more vacuum so wouldn't that only advance your timing more with the vacuum advance? how can i achieve less timing at higher rpm from idle with vacuum advance?

 

[RustyRatRod]

okay so i've got some things confused i think. so right now ive got no vacuum advance and locked at 36 so it should be 36 all the time. you would recommend get it so its idling at 40 degrees with vacuum advanced hooked up. but i always thought as your engine revs up it pulls more vacuum so wouldn't that only advance your timing more with the vacuum advance? how can i achieve less timing at higher rpm from idle with vacuum advance?

No. When the engine revs, the vacuum drops off, so the vacuum advance would drop out on acceleration. If your vacuum advance is adjustable, turn the adjustment screw all the way clockwise to start with and go from there.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Read through this. Maybe it will help.

Manifold Vacuum Experiment

I've been noticing a slight stumble off idle and reduced fuel economy on my 75 F250. 400 engine, T18 4 speed transmission and Dana 60 with 3.73 gears. So I started checking it out and quickly found a bad vacuum advance canister. Got a new one and got it installed this morning. I decided to try...

www.forabodiesonly.com

 

[Demonx2]

As the gurus have mentioned, you REALLY, REALLY want to know where the cam is as-installed. Not a guess or dot-to-dot or whatever; but where is that intake centerline set at? It is really important because if it's retarded from where it is supposed to, the engine will be sluggish and lazy.

A quick simple test would be cranking compression values. If you post the numbers here, there are some on here who can tell you if it is reasonable.

That's where I'd start. (Note: I still have a 4260# 69 Charger with a low compression 440 (9.2:1 CR) with the old 292/.509 purple cam that ran 12.50's at 108+ with a 3200 stall converter and 4.10 gears out back. 750 vacuum Holley and CH4B intake. Your car is lighter and should be quicker than mine!)

 

[NoahSewal]

No. When the engine revs, the vacuum drops off, so the vacuum advance would drop out on acceleration. If your vacuum advance is adjustable, turn the adjustment screw all the way clockwise to start with and go from there.

yes that makes sense. i'll try that tomorrow. now that there's better weather where im at i can spend all day after work messing with it ha. would the vacuum return back to normal once its sitting at 3k (as if i were cruising at 3k) or does it stay dropped until you let of the pedal? i feel like i've noticed my vacuum only dropping initially on wot then once the engine catches up with how far the carb is open it comes back up to around 15-20 pounds until i let off. because in that case i think my cruising would suffer due to too much advance (34 mechanical plus whatever my vacuum advance would be)

 

[NoahSewal]

As the gurus have mentioned, you REALLY, REALLY want to know where the cam is as-installed. Not a guess or dot-to-dot or whatever; but where is that intake centerline set at? It is really important because if it's retarded from where it is supposed to, the engine will be sluggish and lazy.

A quick simple test would be cranking compression values. If you post the numbers here, there are some on here who can tell you if it is reasonable.

That's where I'd start. (Note: I still have a 4260# 69 Charger with a low compression 440 (9.2:1 CR) with the old 292/.509 purple cam that ran 12.50's at 108+ with a 3200 stall converter and 4.10 gears out back. 750 vacuum Holley and CH4B intake. Your car is lighter and should be quicker than mine!)

i agree i should've degreed the cam when i did it. stupid move not doing it for sure. i believe cranking compression is different than cranking psi, but my cranking psi is 160psi every cylinder within 5psi of eachother. this is the pistons .010 in the hole and a .040 head gasket with open chamber heads. im not sure if thats low for my setup or not.

 

[RustyRatRod]

yes that makes sense. i'll try that tomorrow. now that there's better weather where im at i can spend all day after work messing with it ha. would the vacuum return back to normal once its sitting at 3k (as if i were cruising at 3k) or does it stay dropped until you let of the pedal? i feel like i've noticed my vacuum only dropping initially on wot then once the engine catches up with how far the carb is open it comes back up to around 15-20 pounds until i let off. because in that case i think my cruising would suffer due to too much advance (34 mechanical plus whatever my vacuum advance would be)

At idle or part throttle the vacuum advance will be activated. Won't hurt a thing at part throttle as it's not under load. But don't forget, you're going to have to limit the total mechanical advance to around 34 degrees (without the vacuum can hooked up) to keep spark knock at bay. So you're going to have to either weld the slots up in the distributor and refile them to a specific length to give the proper advance, OR run one of the FBO limiter plates. There have been a lot of people complaining on a very recent thread about those plates advancing too much, including myself. That's why I recommend choosing a total advance and welding and refiling the slots.

 

[NoahSewal]

At idle or part throttle the vacuum advance will be activated. Won't hurt a thing at part throttle as it's not under load. But don't forget, you're going to have to limit the total mechanical advance to around 34 degrees (without the vacuum can hooked up) to keep spark knock at bay. So you're going to have to either weld the slots up in the distributor and refile them to a specific length to give the proper advance, OR run one of the FBO limiter plates. There have been a lot of people complaining on a very recent thread about those plates advancing too much, including myself. That's why I recommend choosing a total advance and welding and refiling the slots.

okay sounds good. now i've got my t bar slots welded in most the way and i used a drill bit the same size as the advance weight posts to make it fit. but i can file them bigger if i need more advance. i'll play with the timing some more tomorrow and see if i can't get it happier. thanks for enlightening me about the vac advance function. i always find something more to learn!

 

[RustyRatRod]

okay sounds good. now i've got my t bar slots welded in most the way and i used a drill bit the same size as the advance weight posts to make it fit. but i can file them bigger if i need more advance. i'll play with the timing some more tomorrow and see if i can't get it happier. thanks for enlightening me about the vac advance function. i always find something more to learn!

Here is the distributor slot sizes for the given advance degrees.

Distributor advance

When the car is idling, set the timing @ 20 degrees with the vacuam advance disconnected, raising the rpm by 400 or 500 causes the advance to go to 50, my guy says that seems way high. It's a 360 magnum, just rebuilt. Do not know what distributor is on it. Any input is appreciated.

www.forabodiesonly.com

 

[fishmens67]

but my cranking psi is 160ps

I don't see a problem there, looks good to me.

 

[Ceedawg]

As the gurus have mentioned, you REALLY, REALLY want to know where the cam is as-installed. Not a guess or dot-to-dot or whatever; but where is that intake centerline set at? It is really important because if it's retarded from where it is supposed to, the engine will be sluggish and lazy.

A quick simple test would be cranking compression values. If you post the numbers here, there are some on here who can tell you if it is reasonable.

That's where I'd start. (Note: I still have a 4260# 69 Charger with a low compression 440 (9.2:1 CR) with the old 292/.509 purple cam that ran 12.50's at 108+ with a 3200 stall converter and 4.10 gears out back. 750 vacuum Holley and CH4B intake. Your car is lighter and should be quicker than mine!)

I was going to say my 64 Plym with same specks as your engine ran 7.61 in the eighth mile all steel car @36 degrees being the best, 4.88 gears and 9” vert. A LOT of ET is lost if that carb is not responsive.