440 power gains/ aluminum head advantages?

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65 Cuda 340 said:
I would sure double check this if you haven't already.

And I assume that 800 Holley is a double pumper? I don't think they make a vacuum secondary in that size, but if it is a vacuum secondary carb, the secondaries won't open all the way if the secondary spring is too heavy.

Just thinking maybe you should check the simple stuff first.
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yes double pumper. and a/f gets a little lean at wot but not anything crazy. it's around in the like 13s. having slack in the new timing chain i put on makes me suspect. any recommendations on a good timing set to buy that should install with minimal slack? would a gear drive be more precise? it's never been line bored in either cam or main journals so it shouldn't need anything crazy. not that it should if the line bore was done correct anyway lol
 
PRH said:
I had another thought…….
If the OP has a friend with something like a “known good” 850dp carb he could borrow and bolt on, that might be worth a try.
It’s basically just a tool/process to rule out any possible issues with the OP’s current carb.

I feel like there has to be some component that’s way off.
It seems unbelievable you could have that combo of parts run that far below expectations without there being a real “problem” with……….something.

To say it another way…….
IMO, the sub-par performance isn’t the result of how good or bad that exact combination of parts works together.
The poor performance is the result of there being something wrong with how at least one of the items in the combo is working/functioning.
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i agree there's gonna be something way off that i'll notice at some point. i messed with 2 750vs i had that were good on other cars and there was no real change. compression is good and even all the way around. no vac leaks, good oil pressure, good a/f ratio. getting a little blow by from the valve covers which scares me but the engine has only around 500 miles on it so i'm gonna give it more time hoping the rings will seat more. doesn't smoke out burn oil. idles very well and revs good up to 6k. thinking it's gonna be something with the cam. either smoked lobes or degree is way off. but i've only built 3 engines this being the first far from stock components so i can be missing a few things.
 
PRH said:
Like I said, the dist locked out isn’t problem to me.
If it runs good like that, just leave it.
That’s not you’re missing 1.5 seconds of ET.

If your flash stall is only 2800, that’s way shy of what would be optimum with a 505/292 mega cam(you’re sure it’s the 505?).
That’s a pretty good sized cam and I’d consider a typical 10”(35-3800)converter to be the minimum I’d want for that.

I assume the heads have the correct springs, and they’re set up at the correct heights for the cam?

As another reference point……
The Isky 505/292 cam is very similar to a Racer Brown SSH-44.
I ran an SSH-44 in one of my 440 combos into the low-11’s………with a 9” converter that flashed 48-4900.
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yes also correct springs for cam lift/duration. this is maybe something to help too. when i lock the distributor no vac advance, no mechanical. the timing still bounces around a few degrees on idle and when revving. gets more intense as i rev. would this be an indicator of a lot of slack in the timing chain? i'm sure the distributor is locked and put together right.
 
They make a collar you can put on the distributor shaft that will minimize any upward motion the drive gear might have.
After that’s installed, if you still have the timing mark jumping around, it’s likely the loose chain.

They’re often not rock steady on a BB, so how much it jumps around and whether it’s bad or kinda normal is somewhat up for interpretation.
Obviously, you’d like it to be steady.

At some point you’ll run out of things to check……… and be at a point where the cam timing needs to be verified.
But, to have that combo perform as bad as it does……… it’s not a couple of degrees off……. It’s going to have be like a tooth off.
 
PRH said:
They make a collar you can put on the distributor shaft that will minimize any upward motion the drive gear might have.
After that’s installed, if you still have the timing mark jumping around, it’s likely the loose chain.

They’re often not rock steady on a BB, so how much it jumps around and whether it’s bad or kinda normal is somewhat up for interpretation.
Obviously, you’d like it to be steady.

At some point you’ll run out of things to check……… and be at a point where the cam timing needs to be verified.
But, to have that combo perform as bad as it does……… it’s not a couple of degrees off……. It’s going to have be like a tooth off.
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at one point i did take off the timing cover and rechecked dot to dot and it was on. seemed like it was a little off though because i could not get it to line up perfectly 12 and 6 o clock it was slightly to the right. but moving it a tooth either way was way off. the more i think about it the more im convinced its timing. i'll look around for a collar for the shaft and see what i can find as well.
 
NoahSewal said:
at one point i did take off the timing cover and rechecked dot to dot and it was on. seemed like it was a little off though because i could not get it to line up perfectly 12 and 6 o clock it was slightly to the right. but moving it a tooth either way was way off. the more i think about it the more im convinced its timing. i'll look around for a collar for the shaft and see what i can find as well.
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The coller is useless don’t waste time on that, did you say what fuel pump you have?
 
PRH said:
Like I said, the dist locked out isn’t problem to me.
If it runs good like that, just leave it.
That’s not you’re missing 1.5 seconds of ET.

If your flash stall is only 2800, that’s way shy of what would be optimum with a 505/292 mega cam(you’re sure it’s the 505?).
That’s a pretty good sized cam and I’d consider a typical 10”(35-3800)converter to be the minimum I’d want for that.

I assume the heads have the correct springs, and they’re set up at the correct heights for the cam?

As another reference point……
The Isky 505/292 cam is very similar to a Racer Brown SSH-44.
I ran an SSH-44 in one of my 440 combos into the low-11’s………with a 9” converter that flashed 48-4900.
Click to expand...
I also have a factory replacement ignition box and i'd like to upgrade to something especially with a rev limiter. do you have any good recommendations? i've heard good and bad things about the HRR688 fbo box. i was thinking maybe just a 6AL or ignitor III. multi spark would be nice. preferably something with the least amount of splicing since it's all factory wiring harness that's pretty clean.
 
NoahSewal said:
factory style mech fuel pump
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THAT imo is your problem, probably still have stock 5/16” line too. 3/8” aluminum line minimum with electric pump. The Red Holly street pump will work fine in 1/8 mile, a blue in 1/4. That 850 DP is running out of fuel! Also unless your tank is full the gas is moving away from the stock pickup
 
Ceedawg said:
THAT imo is your problem, probably still have stock 5/16” line too. 3/8” aluminum line minimum with electric pump. The Red Holly street pump will work fine in 1/8 mile, a blue in 1/4. That 850 DP is running out of fuel! Also unless your tank is full the gas is moving away from the stock pickup
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wouldn't i feel it completely fall on its face thought if it was running dry in the bowls? it revs all the way to 6k no problem, just super underpowered. are the holley pumps mech or will i need to wire in a electric. i wanted to upgrade the fuel system at some point because i planned on throwing a 100 shot on the motor once i got everything running 100%
 
NoahSewal said:
wouldn't i feel it completely fall on its face thought if it was running dry in the bowls? it revs all the way to 6k no problem, just super underpowered. are the holley pumps mech or will i need to wire in a electric. i wanted to upgrade the fuel system at some point because i planned on throwing a 100 shot on the motor once i got everything running 100%
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Stock pumps (not the high volume Cater mechanical) were made for the everyday cruising low horse engines. BTW the laying over IS what no adequate fuel feels like. Just splice the red pump into the line at the tank with short pieces of rubber hose, ad a switch up front to turn it on before staging (mech pump will still draw fuel through it for normal driving) Those red pumps put out a steady 5 pounds of pressure but still leave mechanical pump hooked up normally. Later on upgrade to the big stuff, pump, line and regulator, you’ll really need it for the 100 shot.
 
I've always suspected the RB block of being a little "Boaty" for it's potential. Even the mighty hemi left power gains on the table. And it's my belief that it's because in a stock and even street type build the deck height is too high for its total cubes. Because of that, the rotating weight is higher. Thus the engine requires more time to get to its power band.

My suspicion is confirmed with my low deck 451 build. A 440 bored .060 is a 451. But that engine stands no chance against a 451 built from a low deck 400 of simular head/intake/carb/exhaust/cam configuration.

The solution? The RB is tailored made to be stroked. In fact. Many can out build the block's web strength if packing too much performance in the build of a stock block.

This is just my opinion and experience that I've witnessed. But to reality "Wake up" a RB 440? Stroke to like a 512. In a street pump gas build will still snap your head back. Also be more forgiving on stall and gear selections. By just out cubing any small differences.

JMO.
 
cojohnso said:
I've always suspected the RB block of being a little "Boaty" for it's potential. Even the mighty hemi left power gains on the table. And it's my belief that it's because in a stock and even street type build the deck height is too high for its total cubes. Because of that, the rotating weight is higher. Thus the engine requires more time to get to its power band.

My suspicion is confirmed with my low deck 451 build. A 440 bored .060 is a 451. But that engine stands no chance against a 451 built from a low deck 400 of simular head/intake/carb/exhaust/cam configuration.

The solution? The RB is tailored made to be stroked. In fact. Many can out build the block's web strength if packing too much performance in the build of a stock block.

This is just my opinion and experience that I've witnessed. But to reality "Wake up" a RB 440? Stroke to like a 512. In a street pump gas build will still snap your head back. Also be more forgiving on stall and gear selections. By just out cubing any small differences.

JMO.
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I’ll have to disagree a little. It’s what’s on top of that cylinder that’s the problem. The 426 block had street heads then Max heads which picked up quite a bit then they made the Hemi head, it made great power with limitations (used a 426 wedge block with crazy pushrod angles). Ford did the same, standard FE head made a good street engine then they made the low & high riser then the tunnel port, power gains rose a lot. Chevy started with the oval ports, did ok but the real improvement came with the square port heads that make the big numbers all 3 basically same 3-3/4” stroke (think NASCAR on that limit). Use 906 heads on a 383-400 with 440 crank you’ll still have pretty much the same, maybe 20 Hp tops.
 
Your information delivery has been a bit convoluted and difficult to follow. I'll try to summerize:

440 w/ 6 pack pistons in an A Body
9.1 sec. @ 80 mph (about 13.80 @ 100 mph - 1/4 mi.)
2.0 sec. - 60 ft.
9.5:1 CR
160 psi cranking pressure
13 on the AF gauge @ WOT
Headers
292/.505" Mega cam
3500 stall convertor
4.56 gears

I'm guessing your race weight is 3700 lbs - Do you know for sure?
I don't think you said much regarding the head work. There can be big power difference between well prepared stock heads and poorly prepared stock heads.
Is the track times with, or without mufflers?

Your car is off everywhere. You should be trapping at 87-ish (109-ish 1/4 mi) in decent air. I call that a missing 80-100 hp. Your 60 ft is crazy too. I would think a stock 318, 4.56 gear, and 3500 convertor would give a 1.8 60 ft. I think you have one or two items that are way wrong hurting you on both ends of the track.

My thoughts:
Your convertor could be junk.

Your symptoms are very much like fuel starvation, but your AF ratio suggests that this not the problem. Gauges can be wrong. I suggest that you put a fuel pressure gauge tap located near the carb, and monitor your fuel pressure at WOT. If you have 3-3.5 at the carb at WOT, you're fine.

If you have mufflers, remove them or replace them. Mufflers at your power level really won't hurt you, but an internally failed muffler will kill power.

You have wiped cam lobes.

Spark plug wires are crossed.

Maybe post your time slips.
 
As a fwiw with a warning that ymmv…….but……

My 3670lb b body with a roller cammed 448 went well into the 10’s and as fast as 125+ with the factory 5/16 pick-up, fuel line, and a carter hp mechanical pump.

Ran that combo for 3 seasons……..went into the 10’s at every outing.

Do I recommend that set up for people trying for 10 second ET’s? No.

But it’s absolutely not an issue for a car that’s solidly into the 11’s(provided the sock in the tank isn’t plugged).
 
In the time I have been messing with these things(since 1981), I have come across 4 timing sets that had the “dot” on the wrong tooth.
The only way you find that is by degreeing the cam.

The first time it happened was on a timing set that came out of a 446 that was underperforming.
It was my first experience with a roller cam(mid-80’s)……and I was not set up for cam degreeing, and had never done it before.
I lined up the dots and put it together.

The car owner over revved the engine and it broke a rod.
By the time it came to putting the replacement together, I had gotten the needed pieces to degree the cam(and had done one previously).
Well, I kept coming up with it being 14 degrees retarded.
I checked and rechecked, and it kept coming up the same.
I grabbed a different timing set, and it came out right on the money.
I couldn’t believe it, figuring I had something wrong in my original set up, and swapped back to the first timing set.
Still 14 degrees retarded with that one.

So I took to two top gears, put one on top of the other, and sure enough……..the dots were not lined up with each other.
The light came on as to why that previous combo was an underperformer(the cam was 14 degrees retarded).

You’d think that would be a once in a lifetime thing…….but I have had mis-marked timing sets in my hands 3 more times since then.

It’s the knowledge that those things exist why I feel that degreeing the cam is a “must”.

More than likely it’s not the OP’s problem……..but without checking, you don’t “know”.
 
Last edited:
PRH said:
As a fwiw with a warning that ymmv…….but……

My 3670lb b body with a roller cammed 448 went well into the 10’s and as fast as 125+ with the factory 5/16 pick-up, fuel line, and a carter hp mechanical pump.

Ran that combo for 3 seasons……..went into the 10’s at every outing.

Do I recommend that set up for people trying for 10 second ET’s? No.

But it’s absolutely not an issue for a car that’s solidly into the 11’s(provided the sock in the tank isn’t plugged).
Click to expand...
Agree and the Carter HP pump is the tops and your combo was well sorted out, congratulation!
 
BSB67 said:
Your information delivery has been a bit convoluted and difficult to follow. I'll try to summerize:

440 w/ 6 pack pistons in an A Body
9.1 sec. @ 80 mph (about 13.80 @ 100 mph - 1/4 mi.)
2.0 sec. - 60 ft.
9.5:1 CR
160 psi cranking pressure
13 on the AF gauge @ WOT
Headers
292/.505" Mega cam
3500 stall convertor
4.56 gears

I'm guessing your race weight is 3700 lbs - Do you know for sure?
I don't think you said much regarding the head work. There can be big power difference between well prepared stock heads and poorly prepared stock heads.
Is the track times with, or without mufflers?

Your car is off everywhere. You should be trapping at 87-ish (109-ish 1/4 mi) in decent air. I call that a missing 80-100 hp. Your 60 ft is crazy too. I would think a stock 318, 4.56 gear, and 3500 convertor would give a 1.8 60 ft. I think you have one or two items that are way wrong hurting you on both ends of the track.

My thoughts:
Your convertor could be junk.

Your symptoms are very much like fuel starvation, but your AF ratio suggests that this not the problem. Gauges can be wrong. I suggest that you put a fuel pressure gauge tap located near the carb, and monitor your fuel pressure at WOT. If you have 3-3.5 at the carb at WOT, you're fine.

If you have mufflers, remove them or replace them. Mufflers at your power level really won't hurt you, but an internally failed muffler will kill power.

You have wiped cam lobes.

Spark plug wires are crossed.

Maybe post your time slips.
Click to expand...
yes everything you said spec wise is correct. no head work done besides port matching i did myself. wasn't much. the time i ran it it was open headers, now it's just got 2.5in with 8in cherry bombs with side exit maybe 8in in front of the slick. i tore the front end of the motor apart today besides balancer and timing cover and i ordered a degree kit so in due time ill check it. also gonna pull the intake and check out the cam and lifter and see how screwed i am there. this would be my second cam/lifters gone out on this engine. installed crower cam saver lifters the second time. always have good oil pressure so im not sure what could be going on if it's gone bad again but something would have to be up
 
PRH said:
In the time I have been messing with these things(since 1981), I have come across 4 timing sets that had the “dot” on the wrong tooth.
The only way you find that is by degreeing the cam.

The first time it happened was on a timing set that came out of a 446 that was underperforming.
It was my first experience with a roller cam(mid-80’s)……and I was not set up for cam degreeing, and had never done it before.
I lined up the dots and put it together.

The car owner over revved the engine and it broke a rod.
By the time it came to putting the replacement together, I had gotten the needed pieces to degree the cam(and had done one previously).
Well, I kept coming up with it being 14 degrees retarded.
I checked and rechecked, and it kept coming up the same.
I grabbed a different timing set, and it came out right on the money.
I couldn’t believe it, figuring I had something wrong in my original set up, and swapped back to the first timing set.
Still 14 degrees retarded with that one.

So I took to two top gears, put one on top of the other, and sure enough……..the dots were not lined up with each other.
The light came on as to why that previous combo was an underperformer(the cam was 14 degrees retarded).

You’d think that would be a once in a lifetime thing…….but I have had mis-marked timing sets in my hands 3 more times since then.

It’s the knowledge that those things exist why I feel that degreeing the cam is a “must”.

More than likely it’s not the OP’s problem……..but without checking, you don’t “know”.
Click to expand...
got a degree kit yesterday and it's on the way and i tore most of the front end of the engine off so soon i'll degree it and see what's up. also gonna pull the intake as after 3rd oil change (500 miles ish) im still getting a little silver shimmer in my oil. no chunks but i want to cover all my bases.
 
NoahSewal said:
got a degree kit yesterday and it's on the way and i tore most of the front end of the engine off so soon i'll degree it and see what's up. also gonna pull the intake as after 3rd oil change (500 miles ish) im still getting a little silver shimmer in my oil. no chunks but i want to cover all my bases.
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The Isky feeler gauge method will give you a good idea if the cam is close or not.
I used that method many times before I learned to degree. Fact is my dad taught me that method years ago when doing a cam swap.
 
fishmens67 said:
The Isky feeler gauge method will give you a good idea if the cam is close or not.
I used that method many times before I learned to degree. Fact is my dad taught me that method years ago when doing a cam swap.
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never heard of this method. can you do it with factory mopar rockers and hydraulic lifters?
 
Demonx2 said:
^^^^ good job - way to go after it!!
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nothing changes if nothing changes. gotta always try to get something done every day. managing my 68 torino gt i got painted and getting that back together and my 79 firebird that im putting pans in right now so i only put a couple hours every day into my dart. better than nothing. always worth it in the end
 
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