440 power gains/ aluminum head advantages?

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440 Mike said:
Just a guess but, a used TCI torque converter? :(
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used 3500 stall tci converter. i've heard not so good things on them but i got a steal for it and at the time i was still in school so money was tight. anyway to tell if there's an issue with it?
 
So went back and looked at my 4260# 69 Charger data. I previously detailed the specs I ran with this car (post #26). Again, TCI 10" Street Fighter torque converter that stalled (flashed off the footbrake) at 3200 rpm for my 440. Car ran 12.50's-12.60's and the 60' was right around 1.8 sec. Sometimes a tad lower, sometimes a tad higher. I used to joke that a loaded school bus gave me a good run to the 60' mark!!

Just a 60' number for your for reference.
Charger_at_Milan_13413573614030.jpg
 
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The 60 foot and lack of pull from cruise (flash rpm wasn't mentioned) seems to point to the converter. I guess high trans temp would be a sign during cruising. Fuel supply can be ruled out in my opinion because full float bowls should get you out past 60 feet. Timing is certainly a good possibility. The damper timing mark should be verified to be accurate at TDC, and degree the cam for sure.
 
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NoahSewal said:
i've got a video i'll have to look for it again but it was not spinning. my converter that run flashed to around 2,800rpm.
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I missed this earlier. Is this the converter stall or flash? You are foot braking the car I assume?
 
cojohnso said:
I've always suspected the RB block of being a little "Boaty" for it's potential. Even the mighty hemi left power gains on the table. And it's my belief that it's because in a stock and even street type build the deck height is too high for its total cubes. Because of that, the rotating weight is higher. Thus the engine requires more time to get to its power band.

My suspicion is confirmed with my low deck 451 build. A 440 bored .060 is a 451. But that engine stands no chance against a 451 built from a low deck 400 of simular head/intake/carb/exhaust/cam configuration.

The solution? The RB is tailored made to be stroked. In fact. Many can out build the block's web strength if packing too much performance in the build of a stock block.

This is just my opinion and experience that I've witnessed. But to reality "Wake up" a RB 440? Stroke to like a 512. In a street pump gas build will still snap your head back. Also be more forgiving on stall and gear selections. By just out cubing any small differences.

JMO.
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I’m going to disagree a lot. My .030 (440) ran 9.82 in a 1974 duster back in the early 1990’s with junk modified stock parts. I would hate to see what the good parts of today could produce.
 
pittsburghracer said:
I’m going to disagree a lot. My .030 (440) ran 9.82 in a 1974 duster back in the early 1990’s with junk modified stock parts. I would hate to see what the good parts of today could produce.
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There is no way you are running under 9.90s with anything close to stock flowing heads/intake/exhaust. I'm talking near stock compression and head configs. I currently have a very nice running 440 with a small upgrade in cam (but still hydraulic with stock 452s on just a bench port job.) Old Edelbrock Performer and Holley 750 in a 3600lb GTX. I would be happy with mid 13s.

That car is not close to numbers matching. Thus ideal for a performance build. But just can't get myself to pull a very decent running engine and 4 speed setup just for more performance bling. Lol. So it's my putt it up to very local events and watering holes car. Solid #3 driver quality condition car.

Sometimes it's love the one you're with. (I think that's an old song?)
 
cojohnso said:
There is no way you are running under 9.90s with anything close to stock flowing heads/intake/exhaust. I'm talking near stock compression and head configs. I currently have a very nice running 440 with a small upgrade in cam (but still hydraulic with stock 452s on just a bench port job.) Old Edelbrock Performer and Holley 750 in a 3600lb GTX. I would be happy with mid 13s.

That car is not close to numbers matching. Thus ideal for a performance build. But just can't get myself to pull a very decent running engine and 4 speed setup just for more performance bling. Lol. So it's my putt it up to very local events and watering holes car. Solid #3 driver quality condition car.

Sometimes it's love the one you're with. (I think that's an old song?)
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cojohnso said:
There is no way you are running under 9.90s with anything close to stock flowing heads/intake/exhaust. I'm talking near stock compression and head configs. I currently have a very nice running 440 with a small upgrade in cam (but still hydraulic with stock 452s on just a bench port job.) Old Edelbrock Performer and Holley 750 in a 3600lb GTX. I would be happy with mid 13s.

That car is not close to numbers matching. Thus ideal for a performance build. But just can't get myself to pull a very decent running engine and 4 speed setup just for more performance bling. Lol. So it's my putt it up to very local events and watering holes car. Solid #3 driver quality condition car.

Sometimes it's love the one you're with. (I think that's an old song?)
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9s in the 1/8th. if i was in the 9s in the 1/4 i'd shut my mouth and run like the wind with it bahaha. unless you do mean no way a close to stock 440 in an a body would run high 9s in the 1/8th. then i'd have to disagree with how crappy mines been running mildly built and still runs low 9s. i'd be comfortable saying a deeper gear than stock and a higher stall converter with a stock top end 440 would definitely get you close.
 
okay got it all apart, now just waiting on the mail man to pick up his pace ha. for reference in the pictures the chain has 1/2 in slack side to side from where my finger is at. am i the only one who feels like this is a lot for a new timing set? (comp cams double roller single bolt chain set)
also the dots are not lined up in the pic i know. i turned it a little after the pictures were taken and lined them up
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IMG_7722.jpeg
 
PRH said:
They make a collar you can put on the distributor shaft that will minimize any upward motion the drive gear might have.
After that’s installed, if you still have the timing mark jumping around, it’s likely the loose chain.

They’re often not rock steady on a BB, so how much it jumps around and whether it’s bad or kinda normal is somewhat up for interpretation.
Obviously, you’d like it to be steady.

At some point you’ll run out of things to check……… and be at a point where the cam timing needs to be verified.
But, to have that combo perform as bad as it does……… it’s not a couple of degrees off……. It’s going to have be like a tooth off.
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check out the pics i posted in this thread of the chain slack and let me know what you think. i wasn't sure how to tag anybody in my response lol
 
NoahSewal said:
okay got it all apart, now just waiting on the mail man to pick up his pace ha. for reference in the pictures the chain has 1/2 in slack side to side from where my finger is at. am i the only one who feels like this is a lot for a new timing set? (comp cams double roller single bolt chain set)
also the dots are not lined up in the pic i know. i turned it a little after the pictures were taken and lined them up
View attachment 1716261004

View attachment 1716261005
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For new? Yes. That does seem alittle loose. That's typical of older setup.

At least what I've seen. Not to say it's of every case.
 
cojohnso said:
For new? Yes. That does seem alittle loose. That's typical of older setup.

At least what I've seen. Not to say it's of every case.
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yeah for a new set from what i've read it's a bit loose. people say 1/2 deflection is the point of replacement. that can't be the total loss of power though because it is probably only a couple degrees of movement. hoping the timing kit is out of degree. after work today i'll pull the intake and plugs and check the cam. answers will be given soon!
 
NoahSewal said:
yeah for a new set from what i've read it's a bit loose. people say 1/2 deflection is the point of replacement. that can't be the total loss of power though because it is probably only a couple degrees of movement. hoping the timing kit is out of degree. after work today i'll pull the intake and plugs and check the cam. answers will be given soon!
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Make double sure you get top dead center on piston or any numbers you come up with are wrong
 
Ceedawg said:
Make double sure you get top dead center on piston or any numbers you come up with are wrong
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yeah i'll probably verify it a couple times the kit i got comes with a piston stop so i'll just mess with it until i get consistent readings. i also bought a single solid lifter because from my understanding it makes it a lot easier to degree and get consistent readings with a solid lifter installed
 
I would degree the cam with a degree wheel, if at all possible, even if you install another timing chain set. Plenty of instructional videos on the web to help you along. I once installed a big name brand double roller chain in an LA smallblock I was building. If I hadn't degreed the cam, I wouldn't have seen how retarded the timing chain set was right out of the box. I verified multiple times and kept coming up with the same numbers. I don't know if it was a manufacturing defect, or what, but the replacement chain was spot on. If I used the defective timing set, I would have had a horrible running engine, if it ran at all. With a 4.56 gear, you should have plenty of pull in 3rd gear if everything is right.
 
In your mind, have you skipped ahead to what you’ll check next…….if the cam timing isn’t way off?

While the loose chain isn’t at all optimal…….that by itself isn’t the cause of the missing 1+ second ET.

The solid lifter……:thumbsup:
 
NoahSewal said:
yeah i'll probably verify it a couple times the kit i got comes with a piston stop so i'll just mess with it until i get consistent readings. i also bought a single solid lifter because from my understanding it makes it a lot easier to degree and get consistent readings with a solid lifter installed
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The other thing is a way to move the timing just one or two degrees, offset dowel bushings are nice, the top gear is drilled out on dowel hole to adjust either way. Stick the appropriate offset that’s needed, might have to do again (they’re color coded for degree. You doing great, confidence is your friend!
 
PRH said:
In your mind, have you skipped ahead to what you’ll check next…….if the cam timing isn’t way off?

While the loose chain isn’t at all optimal…….that by itself isn’t the cause of the missing 1+ second ET.

The solid lifter……:thumbsup:
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if the timing chain/cam isn't way out of degree i'm next to assume the cam/lifters ate eachother so i'll inspect every cam lobe and lifter face. if everything is good there im not sure what i could check. i'll probably buy a fuel pressure gauge to install and watch and check running temps of the trans to see if ive got converter/transmission issues.
 
Remember IF you find rhe timing is off, you can play the game of using offset bushings or keys or whatever or even in combo with a tooth off to get the cam where it belongs. I've done that before as it really doesn't matter "how you got there" so long as the cam ends up where it's supposed to be.
 
Demonx2 said:
Remember IF you find rhe timing is off, you can play the game of using offset bushings or keys or whatever or even in combo with a tooth off to get the cam where it belongs. I've done that before as it really doesn't matter "how you got there" so long as the cam ends up where it's supposed to be.
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I hate those bushings. I use the gears with multiple keyways or offset keys to dial mine in 4 degrees advanced. I work on 60 foot and the rest is easy.
 
Demonx2 said:
Remember IF you find rhe timing is off, you can play the game of using offset bushings or keys or whatever or even in combo with a tooth off to get the cam where it belongs. I've done that before as it really doesn't matter "how you got there" so long as the cam ends up where it's supposed to be.
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i got the single bolt billet 9 way timing set off 440 source. hoping it's not completely garbage for 130 bucks. saw good things about it online though. if i can't get it in spec with the 9 adjustments ive probably got bigger problems ha. i probably could've gotten by with the comp cams timing set but id like to get away from comp stuff after my break in fail and my buddies cam lobes going flat. i cant say for him but mine was treated well and broke in everything by spec and after only 15 minutes of break in it wore 3/16 inch grooves in my comp lifters with a comp cam. did a complete rebuild after that and used isky cam and crower lifters and it broke in good. we will see how the lifters look with around 500 miles on them when i pull the intake tomorrow. thinking about my cam being smoked again gives me the same feeling i got on christmas eve as a kid.. just hoping i dont get any charcoal this time around lol.
 
Demonx2 said:
Remember IF you find rhe timing is off, you can play the game of using offset bushings or keys or whatever or even in combo with a tooth off to get the cam where it belongs. I've done that before as it really doesn't matter "how you got there" so long as the cam ends up where it's supposed to be.
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took my intake off and inspected cam lobes and lifters from what i can see before taking it apart. it looks good even wear patterns on every lobe and they're offset good and all lifters rotate and they all are the same length from the eye. there's no rings on the cam lobes ha. so far so good. i got my cam degree kit this night, so i will start on it tomorrow and see how it plays out. also got the timing kit in the mail too.
 
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