440 Source Balance Job

[Bobzilla]

Has anyone checked one of 440 source's balance jobs lately? Are they truly ready to install out of the box? Or is something that needs to be checked by a competent machine shop?

440 Source has a fairly new high quality crank balancer…….and I’m sure they balance more BBM cranks than anyone else.
I’d run it.

Balancing at 440 Source

I agree with PRH on the fact that 440source balances a lot of assemblies they sell. I have never heard anyone say they had a problem with them yet. They are not just selling standard bobweight components and sending them out the door. They are actually balancing the components in house. I would trust it.

 

[1WildRT]

If you have it checked by a race engine builder he will will charge you for a balance job. Engine builders are rarely happy with someone else's balance job.

Or bore job, or valve job....

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Or bore job, or valve job....

That's because once the next guy touches it, he OWNS it.

Only a fool doesn't correct things to how he does them. I'm betting AndyF is at least checking any cranks that are balanced by someone else.

 

[fishmens67]

Engine builders are rarely happy with someone else's balance job.

sounds like your guy wouldn't be happy with my guy and vise versa.
I'd be betting Brandon's balancing is up to par..

 

[Newbomb Turk]

sounds like your guy wouldn't be happy with my guy and vise versa.
I'd be betting Brandon's balancing is up to par..

There's a whole lot of wiggle room in par.

 

[1WildRT]

There's a whole lot of wiggle room in par.

And as I posted in post 10

As soon as the crank gets up to speed oil begins to get caught in the spinning vortex... How many grams of oil do you suppose & how evenly is it distributed?

So, your gonna chase a half a gram that means absolutely nothing when the engine is running...

 

[Newbomb Turk]

And as I posted in post 10

As soon as the crank gets up to speed oil begins to get caught in the spinning vortex... How many grams of oil do you suppose & how evenly is it distributed?

So, your gonna chase a half a gram that means absolutely nothing when the engine is running...

Who said anything about a half gram? Have you ever balanced a crank?

Do you send other guys work out without at least checking it?

 

[fishmens67]

There's a whole lot of wiggle room in par.

Let's just say up to SPEC.
good enough to spin reliably beyond what a camshaft and cylinder head is capable of, including a 440-1 cylinder head.
I'd say it's up to par with a standard block.
Anything more I'm going with an aluminum Indy block, Callies crank and Carrillo rods, my guy will balance it

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Let's just say up to SPEC.
good enough to spin reliably beyond what a camshaft and cylinder head is capable of, including a 440-1 cylinder head.
I'd say it's up to par with a standard block.
Anything more I'm going with an aluminum Indy block, Callies crank and Carrillo rods, my guy will balance it

Like I said, I don’t put my name on someone else’s work.

That’s asking for trouble.

I did a BBC last year.

It came in with **** I refused to do. Even though it came out of a shop I trust and respect.

I changed every single thing on it didn’t like.

The dyno said I made more power everywhere.

It went out with my name on it.

It’s now to my specs, not anyone else’s specs.

 

[1WildRT]

Who said anything about a half gram? Have you ever balanced a crank?

Do you send other guys work out without at least checking it?

I've seen posts claiming stuff was balanced to within a half gram... I've matched weights on pistons & rods... I've never balanced a crank.... I've bored & honed, decked & line honed... Doesn't change the fact I build cars that get driven a lot & get used hard... I don't see the point of chasing every last fraction of a horsepower... If I were building to that level I probably wouldn't be using 440 Source Crank kits.... For what the OP is building I'm confident 440 Sources balance job is fine & I would bolt it together & run it.. I would check bearing clearances, I would check ring gaps, I would clean & lube everything like I always do... I wouldn't get concerned about the balance... Sorry, it just isn't that critical for a street engine....

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I've seen posts claiming stuff was balanced to within a half gram... I've matched weights on pistons & rods... I've never balanced a crank.... I've bored & honed, decked & line honed... Doesn't change the fact I build cars that get driven a lot & get used hard... I don't see the point of chasing every last fraction of a horsepower... If I were building to that level I probably wouldn't be using 440 Source Crank kits.... For what the OP is building I'm confident 440 Sources balance job is fine & I would bolt it together & run it.. I would check bearing clearances, I would check ring gaps, I would clean & lube everything like I always do... I wouldn't get concerned about the balance... Sorry, it just isn't that critical for a street engine....

You keep talking about half a gram.

I’ve seen balanced cranks come in that are 30 grams out in both ends.

You’d put your name on that?

If you don’t check you don’t know.

Trust in this business and you get fucked real quick.

Verify and then trust.

 

[AndyF]

sounds like your guy wouldn't be happy with my guy and vise versa.
I'd be betting Brandon's balancing is up to par..

The shop I work with has rebalanced a number of 440Source "balanced" rotating assemblies. It all has to do with what the engine builder is comfortable with. The engine builder I work with wants unbalanced kits. The "balanced" kits are never perfect and he wants perfect. Just the way it is.

In theory the kits shouldn't need to be balanced. Everyone in the supply chain knows the weights of the components so in theory the cranks should be made to the correct bobweight. They have to be machined anyway so why not just go ahead and machine them to the finished bobweight when they are made. That is how the OEMs do it, and it would save everyone a bunch of time. But nobody does it that way.

 

[Spooky426]

Mopowers, I’m not a machinist, but I do run a 440 Source 512 in a OE 440 block.
I had the balance checked before assembly. It was 4 grams out.
I say, have it checked just so you have that piece of mind in knowing for sure.
Tons of torque.

 

[1WildRT]

Mopowers, I’m not a machinist, but I do run a 440 Source 512 in a OE 440 block.
I had the balance checked before assembly. It was 4 grams out.
I say, have it checked just so you have that piece of mind in knowing for sure.
Tons of torque.

View attachment 1716382563

Four grams... So, a seventh of an ounce..... How much does that oil spinning in the crank weight?

Add to that was it the balance done by 440 Source that was 4 grams off? Or was it the local shop that was 4 grams off....

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Four grams... So, a seventh of an ounce..... How much does that oil spinning in the crank weight?

Add to that was it the balance done by 440 Source that was 4 grams off? Or was it the local shop that was 4 grams off....

So what is your “standard” for balance? It appears you neglect to account for oil clinging to the piston and rod as well.

Good enough for you is what? And BTW, have you ever balanced a crank?

 

[Spooky426]

It’s still 4 grams off. 11:70’s w/a .509 in a 3600lb ‘Cuda…
Runs perfectly smooth.
I would buy from 440 Source with confidence all day long.
I wasn’t complaining, just saying if he’s asking the question, pay the money and check it. He will sleep better just knowing.
The machinist was Rick Santos. 5 times Federal Mogal Dragster Champion.
He knows his stuff and is a perfectionist.

 

[mopowers]

Mopowers, I’m not a machinist, but I do run a 440 Source 512 in a OE 440 block.
I had the balance checked before assembly. It was 4 grams out.
I say, have it checked just so you have that piece of mind in knowing for sure.
Tons of torque.

View attachment 1716382563

Thank you for the firsthand experience. I appreciate it. 4 grams is well within my acceptable tolerance. You're right though. It's nice knowing for certain.

 

[1WildRT]

So what is your “standard” for balance? It appears you neglect to account for oil clinging to the piston and rod as well.

Good enough for you is what? And BTW, have you ever balanced a crank?

We've already covered that... I've done the weighing of components, never spun the crank...
Doesn't mean my opinion is wrong..
Yes, oil clings to everything & it effects balance...
The standard of acceptable balance needs to look at the application...
If you use aerospace tolerances to machine a bench vise your gonna spent a lot of $$$ for no reason & never gonna get anything done...
An engine that sees 6500 doesn't require the level of scrutiny that an engine that spins 9-10K does... But then again an engine that rarely sees 4K needs even less...

 

[1WildRT]

It’s still 4 grams off. 11:70’s w/a .509 in a 3600lb ‘Cuda…
Runs perfectly smooth.
I would buy from 440 Source with confidence all day long.
I wasn’t complaining, just saying if he’s asking the question, pay the money and check it. He will sleep better just knowing.
The machinist was Rick Santos. 5 times Federal Mogal Dragster Champion.
He knows his stuff and is a perfectionist.

I know Rick, but at the end of the day his equipment could be slightly out of calibration as easily as Brandon's.. Glad you left it as is... Some folks need to realize what we are working on....

 

[Newbomb Turk]

We've already covered that... I've done the weighing of components, never spun the crank...
Doesn't mean my opinion is wrong..
Yes, oil clings to everything & it effects balance...
The standard of acceptable balance needs to look at the application...
If you use aerospace tolerances to machine a bench vise your gonna spent a lot of $$$ for no reason & never gonna get anything done...
An engine that sees 6500 doesn't require the level of scrutiny that an engine that spins 9-10K does... But then again an engine that rarely sees 4K needs even less...

Got it. The standard is what you feel. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[9secRR]

So what is your “standard” for balance? It appears you neglect to account for oil clinging to the piston and rod as well.

how do you account for the oil clinging to the crank and rods?

 

[Newbomb Turk]

how do you account for the oil clinging to the crank and rods?

You don’t. No one does. It’s a bullshit claim so guys can produce **** and get paid for it.

I had a standard. 15 grams for a street car. 10 grams for a street/strip car and 5 grams for a race engine under 7500.

Over that it was 2 grams. I never did over or under balancing because unless you knew what RPM range the engine would be in for most of its life, it isn’t worth the risk.

There are multiple reasons why race cars get towed back. One is valve spring life.

Another is the crank is over balanced and prolonged low RPM can put the crank in a range where it will kill itself if you keep doing it.

That’s why I asked what his standard is.

If a crank came in and I didn’t balance it, it went on the balancer and at least got checked. Far too many didn’t meet MY standard, and I’m not putting my name on something that doesn’t meet my standard.

 

[9secRR]

You don’t. No one does. It’s a bullshit claim so guys can produce **** and get paid for it.

I had a standard. 15 grams for a street car. 10 grams for a street/strip car and 5 grams for a race engine under 7500.

that's what i thought, just a marketing stunt to charge more $

 

[Newbomb Turk]

that's what i thought, just a marketing stunt to charge more $

Really? My pricing was very competitive. You can pay less for **** but thats on you.

 

[Desoto291hemi]

You don’t. No one does. It’s a bullshit claim so guys can produce **** and get paid for it.

I had a standard. 15 grams for a street car. 10 grams for a street/strip car and 5 grams for a race engine under 7500.

Over that it was 2 grams. I never did over or under balancing because unless you knew what RPM range the engine would be in for most of its life, it isn’t worth the risk.

There are multiple reasons why race cars get towed back. One is valve spring life.

Another is the crank is over balanced and prolonged low RPM can put the crank in a range where it will kill itself if you keep doing it.

That’s why I asked what his standard is.

If a crank came in and I didn’t balance it, it went on the balancer and at least got checked. Far too many didn’t meet MY standard, and I’m not putting my name on something that doesn’t meet my standard.

This is the best post you have made,,,it completely explained your point .
I like your standard,,,it makes perfect sense as well .
There is nothing that works better than clear communication ,,,I totally agree with all points now .

And I mean no disrespect ,,,,sometimes people come across as Wile E Coyote .
Sometimes ,,,I know I do !
But after more insight,,,and explanation,,,it becomes clear,,at least to others around me .
I understand the points you were making,,,I didn’t before.

Tommy