You nailed it. Those are my thoughts and that is exactly what experts like Finkbeiner say.
500+ci Builder
- Thread starter IBSorgn
- Start date
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Average, medium, intermediate, normal, ordinary, modal. I really don't know what kind of answer you want.
Your apology is accepted. I didn't realize that BB strokers were classified as "Playing with the Big Boys" as "Big Boyz" meaning 500+ci, I get it now! I just figured a stroker is just another form of motor building. Look, all I'm looking for is a tire fryer for the car shows. I figure that I can do it three ways, 1)produce power with rpms which means higher quality parts which equals higher build costs, 2)build a big displacement low rpm motor and let the cubic inches create the power which does not require high quality components which translates to lower cost, or 3) cheat by ridging up some concealed nozzles and spray the tires with a liquid. I decided to choose option 2. If I was truly concerned about the cost I would have elected option 3 and not posted to this web forum.
younggun2.0
Well-Known Member
if you built a true 10:1 stock stroke 440 with mildly ported eddy heads and a rpm intake with a good set of headers you'd be knocking on 500hp really easily. that is more power then you could ever use on the street... anyone that has driven a TRUE 500+ hp car on the street will tell you that its a handful. my 383 is making around 400hp and its a death trap.
if your that worried about the cubes just tell everyone its 500" motor. they cant tell anyways.
if your that worried about the cubes just tell everyone its 500" motor. they cant tell anyways.
What I mean is, I can do this with factory iron heads, stock stamped steel rocker arms, and a link belt timing chain. You seem intelligent. I would like a list of manufactures and components with part numbers that you deem sufficient. I could design engines all day long that will fit the performance and dollar criterion but you may consider insufficient quality. I by choice would design something in the $10,000 range because I take pride in my work but I can make something for under $8,500 too.
I can slap a turd in a box and stamp guaranteed on it. But all you're going to have is a guaranteed POS.
moper
Well-Known Member
"I just figured a stroker is just another form of motor building. Look, all I'm looking for is a tire fryer for the car shows. I figure that I can do it three ways, 1)produce power with rpms which means higher quality parts which equals higher build costs, 2)build a big displacement low rpm motor and let the cubic inches create the power which does not require high quality components which translates to lower cost"
Ok - we're getting closer to reality by my definition anyway...lol. Many enthusiasts have read a lot, and are fixated on numbers without ever having the opportunity to really experience the ups and downs of those big numbers.
The Challenger with a 505 I built some years ago will break tires loose at 1/2 throttle in 3rd on street tires. If you go full throttle it goes right to the limiter in three gears (4sp). It can be disconcerting rolling on the throttle on an on ramp and having the rear try to pass you. In rain it's dangerous.
What you can do it with is a 440, with decent heads, good machining, and solid parts. Those are much more reasonable to do within restrictions. You might not have 600 pound feet - but from first hand experience a real 600 pound feet car is a challenge to drive safely and more than you might want.
Ok - we're getting closer to reality by my definition anyway...lol. Many enthusiasts have read a lot, and are fixated on numbers without ever having the opportunity to really experience the ups and downs of those big numbers.
The Challenger with a 505 I built some years ago will break tires loose at 1/2 throttle in 3rd on street tires. If you go full throttle it goes right to the limiter in three gears (4sp). It can be disconcerting rolling on the throttle on an on ramp and having the rear try to pass you. In rain it's dangerous.
What you can do it with is a 440, with decent heads, good machining, and solid parts. Those are much more reasonable to do within restrictions. You might not have 600 pound feet - but from first hand experience a real 600 pound feet car is a challenge to drive safely and more than you might want.
67 prostreet gt
Well-Known Member
The cost of building a stroker that can far exceed the stock blocks is easier and cheaper to do than it has been in years the guy that built my wedge is doing 440 to 512 cubic inch small blocks on alcohol making close to 1000 hp naturally aspirated but he also does the pump gas 400-440 small blocks that make 800 hp naturally aspirated its not a matter of buying the most expensive parts out there it's just a matter of sitting down and thinking wat u really want I just happened to not want enough and he easily delivered that and more
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I don't roll that way.
I'm not a newbie. Have owned many cars and have been in and out of drag racing for more years than I care to remember. I don't consider myself a gearhead just appreciate old muscle. I would like to stay focused on my subject of my post and not discuss driving abilities or what you think is in my head.
Glad to heard that you can build to my requirements. Why don't you submit a proposal. Why do you want me to submit a list - sounds like you want to sit in some position of judgement. Not going there.
I have been considering this motor for many months. I feel comfortable that I have researched performance levels and inventoried costs to believe that what I outlined in the original post is doable within the cost limits I set. If not I would have not placed that constraint. As I said in my original post, some of the problems I'm experiencing is over building and the usage of premium parts. Of course that's not a fault but it won't make budget. The only real concern that most builders have expressed is the hyd cam and vacuum requirements, most want to use rollers and I can't blame them. Maybe I need to lighten up on the vacuum, idle, and stall. But we will see. I know these guys can do it but they just want a little more elbow room. Check out the $5500 Amsoil challenge a year to two back.
67 prostreet gt
Well-Known Member
True true but doesn't using more stock parts mean that there is a bigger chance of it going poof? The 526 make tourque down low with it making 711 tq at 4700 rpm and max power at 5300 rpm so I don't shift it past 5700 rpm so I'm not pushing these parts all that hard
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Hey, I participated in that challenge and I know how phony that $5500 limit was. Many of the engine parts were not covered and no machining or labor.
From what I understand I'm well inside what this motor can handle. Good golly we are only talking about 500-550hp. I've not mention what parts will be used only the builders have stated that and I'm satisfied with the quality. Nearly everything they have listed was middle of the road quality popular brand components.
Really want to stay focused on my original post issues as we are kinda straying a bit. No disrespect intended just want to get feed back on those questions posed and statements raised.
I assumed that labor and machining was not included however the results were far in excess of what I'm asking for. My budget reflects for labor and machining, may not be as much as a builder would like to have but they are free to say "No Thank You" and look for a more lucrative job. Did you cheat?
Did I cheat? Now we're having some fun. Nope! But I did get penalized, as per the rules, for spending too much money. Had I not spent the extra money, the engine would have been completely destroyed when Comp Cams forgot to turn on the water to the engine for the dyno runs. As it was we had to rebuild the heads and run with collapsed rings and bent valves the next day. Still she made 730 HP in that condition.
If I remember correctly, if you went over the $5.5k you was penalized X amount of HP per $100 or something like that. Being penalized still defined you as playing inside the rules. Had a tough brake. I thought you were referring to folks using bogus parts invoices etc.
moper
Well-Known Member
What are the harder points for me are the 600 pound feet at 3200 and the hydraulic cam requirements.
It should be noted that the definition of "complete engine" can vary even shop to shop. Am I correct in thinking you want to go to the dyno test, when it's done, load it up with everything on it, and go drop it in the car - right? So complete means an engine, carb to pan, pulleys to crank hub and running condition to me.
I just put a proposal together for the heck of it. I do not plan to submit anything - this is for my own peace of mind and discussion's sake. Including every nut, bolt, oil and filters, me supplying a block, RB based 505 CID, would be $12,300 give or take sales tax and shipping. That's E street heads, 4.25 stroke crank, hydraulic roller cam, all new tin, new balancer, new ignition/distributor/wires, new carb, fuel pump, water pump, everything soup to nuts, name brand, new except for the block.
Now - if you are talking about a dyno'd engine - minus the ignition, fuel pump, carb, pulleys, etc. you could lose $1300 or so. If you lose the hydraulic cam requirement it would save another $500 and lower the price to around $10,500.
I share IQs concerns about having suppliers that you approve or don't. You are chosing not to name stuff, which I can totally understand but are there some that you would simply say no to? I looked at all name brand stuff - no ebay vendor, lower end stuff. That's because I've been doing this long enough to know that having less expensive parts available may not mean it's cheaper overall given the labor required to make it all actually work - assuming there is a value placed on your labor.
desmo900
Well-Known Member
I think what many people overlook (possibly the OP) is the labor component of the equation. We can all search online shops and craigslist and ebay for great deals on the various components required to build a big motor but those parts need to be checked, machined and put together in the proper manner. 40 hours of my time building you a motor should cost you about $200 ($5/hour) because I have no idea what I am doing and I have no business building an engine for myself or anyone else.
Jim or Mike's (or any of the other competent builders on this site) time is easily worth north of $100/hour(for reference the labor rate at your typical crappy automotive dealership is usually $95/hour). Factor in the time to build a motor to the standard a professional adheres to, added to the dyno rental time and additional labor of tuning and you have used up a nice chunk of your $8,500.
I would recommend you scour moparts and this site's classifieds and look for someone who is selling a motor built to roughly the specs you are looking for. You will eventually find one in your price range. Those deals pop up from time to time.
Of course you won't know exactly what you are getting. Therein lies the rub...
The thing about the free market system is that things cost what they cost. If you can't readily find someone to build you a motor to the specification and budget that you desire it likely because you are not willing to spend enough money. In the event that you do find someone substantially cheaper than the prevailing rate there is a risk that you might not be getting the quality you had hoped for.
Jim or Mike's (or any of the other competent builders on this site) time is easily worth north of $100/hour(for reference the labor rate at your typical crappy automotive dealership is usually $95/hour). Factor in the time to build a motor to the standard a professional adheres to, added to the dyno rental time and additional labor of tuning and you have used up a nice chunk of your $8,500.
I would recommend you scour moparts and this site's classifieds and look for someone who is selling a motor built to roughly the specs you are looking for. You will eventually find one in your price range. Those deals pop up from time to time.
Of course you won't know exactly what you are getting. Therein lies the rub...
The thing about the free market system is that things cost what they cost. If you can't readily find someone to build you a motor to the specification and budget that you desire it likely because you are not willing to spend enough money. In the event that you do find someone substantially cheaper than the prevailing rate there is a risk that you might not be getting the quality you had hoped for.
desmo900
Well-Known Member
moper, I was busy typing my above above post when you posted. You said it more eloquently than I could.
moper
Well-Known Member
The feeling I'm getting is the OP is not "do or die" at $8500 but doesn't want to spend needlessly on race quality parts that are way beyond what he needs. That makes sense to me.
Yes carb, dist, wp, etc -just as it comes off the dyno. Labor and machine rates are a lot more expensive in New England than in the South or Midwest and that's why bids from up your way tend to be higher. If my performance can't be met, then a builder has a choice to say "Can't do it" or "Here is what I can do". I'm not putting a gun to anyone's head. We either do business or don't . If you have read this threat completely I stated, concerning approving components, I wanted to insure that no oddball, never heard of brand was used. However I would consider if they could vouch for the integrity. You know we are just rehashing old ground here.
So you got to start somewhere don't you? For what it is worth, and I have already mentioned this in an earlier post, have two builders that stated they can build within a few hundred of my budget and they are also people that have been recommended in this forum. I will not mention names and they may not wish to come forward but that's their choice. Would like to get 1 or 2 more names so I can do a proper comparison.
B I N G O you nailed it.
When I supercharged my 3000GT all the forums were booing me for not going the conventional twin turbo route like all the other zombies were doing. I stated I wanted to be different and travel a less worn path. I did it, I had fun, met my engine power, maintenance and behavior goals, and for the large part was successful. BTW, was not nearly as successful on my budget but just couldn't stop from adding just 1........... more thing. But instead of being 1 of 1000's of TT conversions, I'm now 1 of 10's of SC conversions.
Now putting in a 500+ci stroker is not ground breaking it will set my 72 apart from the majority of the herd and I will enjoy display 5XX on my hood. Who knows maybe, at a later date and looking back, it might have been wiser to do like one of your forum members suggested, "just lie about your displacement".
moper
Well-Known Member
Good luck with your plans. I look forward to following the progress.
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