500 vs 512 from 400ci

[PROSTOCKTOM]

Did you use 230 casting block? It’s not your typical 400 block, a lot more meat and thicker cylinder walls.

I am well aware of what a 230 block is and it's still an OEM block. You might as well start with a 4.5" bore aftermarket block if you have any HP goals of 1100HP . If you don't all the money you put in that 230 block will be lost when it blows up. Caps and a girdle are only band aides for a stock block that was designed and cast out of materials only intended for passenger cars. It's your money spend it as you wish, but remember that myself and others told you it won't work.

Tom

 

[Miszny]

I am well aware of what a 230 block is and it's still an OEM block. You might as well start with a 4.5" bore aftermarket block if you have any HP goals of 1100HP . If you don't all the money you put in that 230 block will be lost when it blows up. Caps and a girdle are only band aides for a stock block that was designed and cast out of materials only intended for passenger cars. It's your money spend it as you wish, but remember that myself and others told you it won't work.

Tom

Does anyone make low deck aftermarket block besides Indy? Is there an option of getting something like mega block but low deck? The 230 blocks are on the market for 1000$ these days, main caps are like 700, add studs, bolts another 150, full machine work as these blocks are all over the place puts me at 1200$ extra cost. So I am looking at 3000$ to make it happen. What would be close alternative?
I’m not stubborn to go this route, but I also know guys running low 9s in heavy cars with 440 factory blocks stokers for years. My goal is 850 NA with 250 shot on top.

 

[dodgedifferent2]

Currently in process of building a 400 stroker to 512. I went 512 because it was same price for all displacements and only live once.

I used the 440 source kit with dished Pistons and trickflow 240 heads which will make 10.5 compression. Using a bullet camshaft

I am mainly building for street usage with a tr6060 with .5 OD but swapped to a t56 magnum. Car currently has a high reving w5 headed 340 stroker.

I was not worried about what block I used because I don't plan to push it to its limit. Also the block I got had broken motor mount ears so I planned motorplate.

 

[Miszny]

This is 440 based 512 with BCR griddle, 1150 dominator, 9 years of racing and street driving, 850NA + 350 shot when racing. Do some people get lucky and others don’t?
What’s the trick here…

I’m trying to make the best of what I can afford. Unfortunately 6000$ block is out of my budget.

 

[Miszny]

Currently in process of building a 400 stroker to 512. I went 512 because it was same price for all displacements and only live once.

I used the 440 source kit with dished Pistons and trickflow 240 heads which will make 10.5 compression. Using a bullet camshaft

I am mainly building for street usage with a tr6060 with .5 OD but swapped to a t56 magnum. Car currently has a high reving w5 headed 340 stroker.

I was not worried about what block I used because I don't plan to push it to its limit. Also the block I got had broken motor mount ears so I planned motorplate.

Did you go with ultralight crank or standard?

 

[DC Dart]

Minimal experience here. Especially on high horsepower builds. But the 230 block does not guarantee thick cylinder walls.
I have one going into my car and one on the shelf. Kinda bummed at the cylinder thicknesses. Seems to average on the same minimal thicknesses as the later blocks. Maybe overall thickness may be greater?
So In my head the stroke combination which stresses the cylinder wall would get the vote.
I am surprised though how many thin spots are likely in a lot of high horse engines that are not known and never have issues.
My 230 block has 451 rotating assembly with Eddy heads so hope it is never an issue. Wish I went 470.
So stock block be sure to sonic check. Be prepared to add a couple sleeves. Could get closer to aftermarket block?
Getting hard to have several blocks to choose from and picking the best one. But my paranoia may be based on my lack of knowledge. I also have terrible luck. So it would take me a lot of blocks to have one that had nice cylinder walls.

 

[Miszny]

Minimal experience here. Especially on high horsepower builds. But the 230 block does not guarantee thick cylinder walls.
I have one going into my car and one on the shelf. Kinda bummed at the cylinder thicknesses. Seems to average on the same minimal thicknesses as the later blocks. Maybe overall thickness may be greater?
So In my head the stroke combination which stresses the cylinder wall would get the vote.
I am surprised though how many thin spots are likely in a lot of high horse engines that are not known and never have issues.
My 230 block has 451 rotating assembly with Eddy heads so hope it is never an issue. Wish I went 470.
So stock block be sure to sonic check. Be prepared to add a couple sleeves. Could get closer to aftermarket block?
Getting hard to have several blocks to choose from and picking the best one. But my paranoia may be based on my lack of knowledge. I also have terrible luck. So it would take me a lot of blocks to have one that had nice cylinder walls.

Thank you for the warning, I know that 230 casting number guarantees nothing. Some of these blocks are just like 530 casting blocks.
Fortunately I have some good friends in USA that can check and make sure that I get good block before is spend crazy money for shipping overseas. I’m hoping all it needs is .030” over to be good to go also.
I found one block like this done by Herb McCandless, has all machining done also but it has aluminum main caps. So part of this work will go to waste as I’d go with BCR griddle. Price is also not the best ;-)

 

[DC Dart]

Would be nice to have a modern cast b engine option that was reasonably priced. possibly cast from CGI like new Cummins and power stroke blocks.
Something better than original but not really full race. Something that worked well with the trick flow builds. But ?

 

[dodgedifferent2]

Did you go with ultralight crank or standard?

Standard crank.
Also using 440 source girdle and stock main caps. Just a bit of insurance in my head.

 

[GTX JOHN]

The cold weather blocks that I have all have the 230 casting #
Twice as large as regular 230 Block. The have consistently Sonic trested
great. The other small letter 230 block = Not so much at all.

Brandon 440 Source Web Site explains the Main Web difference
very well.

 

[qkcuda]

Mine was a thick main web 230 block, but it was only running around 600 hp

 

[DC Dart]

My two 230 blocks are July of 71. I have the big main webbing on both. I think they have the large numbers also.
If you are paying a premium for the 230 block I would make sure it sonic tested well?

 

[Bewy]

Some pros & cons of both set ups:
- cubes are so close that that should not be the decider
- short rod gives a longer piston, but it is also heavier. With so much heavy hardware [ crank ] flying around, lighter might be a virtue.
- much is made of side loading with shorter rods [ & the consequent R/S ratio ] , engine life, hp etc. The 454 Chev has one of the shortest r/s ratios in the common engines [ only beaten by the 400 SB Chev ] & they seem to make prodigious amounts of HP......& do not wear out quickly.

 

[Icetech]

I kinda wish i had gone with the 400>500 kit that 440 source has with the super light bobweight.. but i ended up in a small block rabbit hole.. maybe next time but that's the way i would go.

 

[Miszny]

I kinda wish i had gone with the 400>500 kit that 440 source has with the super light bobweight.. but i ended up in a small block rabbit hole.. maybe next time but that's the way i would go.

Thing is that 440 source tells me that I should avoid this as a street build because pistons are very short and less stable which will cause premature cylinder wall wear. Thats why I was thinking about differet approach towards 500ci stroker.

 

[Icetech]

Thing is that 440 source tells me that I should avoid this as a street build because pistons are very short and less stable which will cause premature cylinder wall wear. Thats why I was thinking about differet approach towards 500ci stroker.

I was wondering about the stability of them myself.. but figured most of our "street" builds get very little miles, but i also make horrible decisions.. so that's probably a good call

 

[Miszny]

I was wondering about the stability of them myself.. but figured most of our "street" builds get very little miles, but i also make horrible decisions.. so that's probably a good call

You are right about the miles put, its not like a daily home work home deal in most cases, but I work from home and I drive my kids and even get groceries with my car when weather allows it. I like driving this car so much that I take every excouse to do it. That said if I can make it live a bit longer with right parts choice I will.
My max power goal here is also something that will happen not often. Advantage of nitrous build is that you tune NA and do most of the miles like that. Nitrous happen ocasionally.
I guess I probably do like 2500-3500 miles a season.

 

[qkcuda]

The difference in bobweight between the 400/512 and the 400/500 is 2140 to 2075 so only 65 grams.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Thing is that 440 source tells me that I should avoid this as a street build because pistons are very short and less stable which will cause premature cylinder wall wear. Thats why I was thinking about differet approach towards 500ci stroker.

If you are using a QUALITY engine oil that almost eliminates skirt wear. If you aren’t paying 20 plus bucks a quart (liter) you aren’t getting an oil that will do the job you want it to.

The other thing to do is run near .000 piston to wall clearance and increase the bearing area and oil retention of the piston skirt.

There is only one way to do that at this time and that’s with skirts coated by Line2Line.

The use an abradable coating that you can have applied to run near zero clearance (.0015ish) or they can apply it so you run at .0000-.0005 but you really need a dyno to do the latter and it helps to have a dyno either way.

Break in is kinda critical with the coating because you need to load the engine to get heat in the piston so it expands and wears the coating off (and in).

Just getting the engine up to temp won’t do it. So you need to get some load on it, then take the load off and repeat it.

 

[Miszny]

If you are using a QUALITY engine oil that almost eliminates skirt wear. If you aren’t paying 20 plus bucks a quart (liter) you aren’t getting an oil that will do the job you want it to.

The other thing to do is run near .000 piston to wall clearance and increase the bearing area and oil retention of the piston skirt.

There is only one way to do that at this time and that’s with skirts coated by Line2Line.

The use an abradable coating that you can have applied to run near zero clearance (.0015ish) or they can apply it so you run at .0000-.0005 but you really need a dyno to do the latter and it helps to have a dyno either way.

Break in is kinda critical with the coating because you need to load the engine to get heat in the piston so it expands and wears the coating off (and in).

Just getting the engine up to temp won’t do it. So you need to get some load on it, then take the load off and repeat it.

I have line2line in my current engine and plan to use it in this build also. This is amazing stuff. In case of 500 with shorter rod I would probably just go t Icon for custom puston, they offer line2line coating as an option with ceramic crown coat as well. Quality oil is no brainer, putting all that money and work into something and using crappy oil... Not going to happen in my case.

 

[ValiantS]

Hi

I am planning to build a new short block for my car. Idea is to use 400 heavy 230 casting block as I can't really afford buying aftermarket and I wanto to be able to use all my current top end and headers...
To make it live longer I was thnking about Milodon cross bolted mains or BCR gridle with aluminium main caps. I like the Milodon option better because it looks cleaner and I'm not really sure if I should install aluminium main caps on street driven car. It's not a gentle driven cruiser, but is sees a lot of street miles and a lot of hard miles.

Dillema between 500 and 512 is mostly based on compression height of the pistons used in these strokers. Usually 500 uilizes 6.760" rod but piston comp height is just 1.1" where 512 uses 6.535" rod with 1.3" comp height. I guess taller, more stable piston will live longer? I was thinking weather it would be good to build 500 using 6.535" rod and even custom made taller piston? Will this get me longer life out of that short block?
Last factor would be crank stroke: 4.15" for 500 vs 4.25 for 512... Is this enough of a difference to take into account as side wear factor?

Not long ago I was building a 512 with eagle light crank and it turned out very impressive. This thing revs up great, overall it made an impression and I started looking into this direction also after that.
Opinions based on experience would be great.
Any downside of these lightened 4.250 eagle cranks?

This engine with port injected nitrous will be in 1100hp range when I'm done.

Its a long therm plan, I'd probably start building after this season so there is plenty of time to work out a good combo and approach with block.

Thanks!

Respectfully, you cannot use long-term and stock block 1100HP in the same context. I like a longer rod because it stresses the bore walls less. If you gusset-up and make the main area better, may as well reinforce the cylinder walls AT THE SAME TIME. Sonic check and either filling or sleeving anything questionable. Set the bore to where you can get GOOD THIN rings.

 

[ValiantS]

I remember talking to someone at Koffels 3 or 4 years ago. They advised me to get the 230 heavy casting block and claimed they made 900hp engines using those.
I wanted to either use cross bolted main caps or BCR griddle with aluminum caps.
I will probably also half fill it as I did my current 530 casting block.

I've never seen a 900HP engine come off that dyno that backed the number up. Things may have changed recently however.

 

[ValiantS]

''Did you use 230 casting block? It’s not your typical 400 block, a lot more meat and thicker cylinder walls.''
The walls are NO THICKER. You'll see that after you sonic check a few.

 

[Miszny]

Respectfully, you cannot use long-term and stock block 1100HP in the same context. I like a longer rod because it stresses the bore walls less. If you gusset-up and make the main area better, may as well reinforce the cylinder walls AT THE SAME TIME. Sonic check and either filling or sleeving anything questionable. Set the bore to where you can get GOOD THIN rings.

I was thinking about half fill with hardblock. Works well with my current 470. No cooling problems at all.
I actually have 6.760 set of Molnar rods with l19 bolts sitting in chevy sizes so using longer rod actually saves me few hundred $.
Perhaps I can get custom piston that will make things more stable.
I also am using vacuum pump now so wanted to get low tension rings in this build.

 

[Miszny]

''Did you use 230 casting block? It’s not your typical 400 block, a lot more meat and thicker cylinder walls.''
The walls are NO THICKER. You'll see that after you sonic check a few.

I heard about core shift problems of these blocks. This could be a potential deal breaker for me.