64-66 vs 67-69 barracuda front suspension

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schmidt1873

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What all changed between a 66 barracuda’s suspension and front frame rail geometry and the 67?
I intend to put a control freak suspension system in my 66 but they only have a kit for the 67-69. I’m not opposed to modifying either the suspension or the frame to make it fit but knowing what needs to change before I put money down and have it taking up space in my shop would be a great help
 
If nothing else, I believe the track got wider. So the question is, was the width inserted in the K-frame, or in the LCAs/UCAs? That probably can be figured out by looking at which part numbers changed.
 
schmidt1873 said:
Thanks for the info, any tips or tricks that could help a young fool turn an old car into a road race machine are appreciated.
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The A actually has a pretty darn good suspension design, it's just pushing 60 years old.
All the normal stuff applies-
Subframe connectors.
Heavier torsion bars (over 1"- 1.08s are the popular go-to).
Fat anti-sway bar (Hellwig and others have good ones).
Box your lower control arms.
Clean and fully re-weld all the seams on your K frame. Weld reinforcements around the steering box mounts.
Consider welding in the chassis stiffening components from US Cartool.
Rebuild the front end with GOOD parts- poly if you don't mind the harshness.
Adjustable upper control arms and struts.
Then get a real front end alignment from a good shop- and throw out the factory specs. Use the SKOSH chart instead, here:
Following the SKOSH chart - your experiences?
Of course, bigger and better brakes. Lots of ways to go depending on what you want and how deep your pockets are.
And then there's tires, tires, tires.
And that's just touching on the front end, you've got the rear to think about too.
LOTS of good info on this forum about it all, use "search" in the suspension forums and you'll have enough reading to keep you busy for a week.
And it's not all a matter of throwing high-dollar stuff at it, you can build it into a slot car with wise part choices, some factory part swapping, and a clear goal.
 
Professor Fate said:
The A actually has a pretty darn good suspension design, it's just pushing 60 years old.
All the normal stuff applies-
Subframe connectors.
Heavier torsion bars (over 1"- 1.08s are the popular go-to).
Fat anti-sway bar (Hellwig and others have good ones).
Box your lower control arms.
Clean and fully re-weld all the seams on your K frame. Weld reinforcements around the steering box mounts.
Consider welding in the chassis stiffening components from US Cartool.
Rebuild the front end with GOOD parts- poly if you don't mind the harshness.
Adjustable upper control arms and struts.
Then get a real front end alignment from a good shop- and throw out the factory specs. Use the SKOSH chart instead, here:
Following the SKOSH chart - your experiences?
Of course, bigger and better brakes. Lots of ways to go depending on what you want and how deep your pockets are.
And then there's tires, tires, tires.
And that's just touching on the front end, you've got the rear to think about too.
LOTS of good info on this forum about it all, use "search" in the suspension forums and you'll have enough reading to keep you busy for a week.
And it's not all a matter of throwing high-dollar stuff at it, you can build it into a slot car with wise part choices, some factory part swapping, and a clear goal.
Click to expand...
The clear goal I’m going for is building a close competitor for a 2016 scat pack challenger for a similar price point mostly because someone told me I couldn’t do it. Having the car up to that standard would be nice on its own merits
 
schmidt1873 said:
The clear goal I’m going for is building a close competitor for a 2016 scat pack challenger for a similar price point mostly because someone told me I couldn’t do it. Having the car up to that standard would be nice on its own merits
Click to expand...
you can build out something fairly competitive with mostly stock style components. the platform responds very well to upping the spring rates and updating specific parts.

the one crippling aspect will be tires and wheels. you'll likely need to cut the body in order to get enough rubber under there. i mean, you can get some decent meat but if you're going for max it's time for some sheetmetal work.

just straight away, right out of the gate: adjustable upper control arms, heavier t-bars, upgraded shocks, chassis stiffening mods, upgraded rear springs, front and rear sway bars. there's tons of other details and massaging of parts but that's the basis to build from.

however, if you *were* going for a tubular coil over front and rear set up, my choice would be HemiDenny.

what's your budget like?
 
You can absolutely put a 64-66 Barracuda in the same handling ballpark as a 2016 Challenger, and you absolutely don't need a coil over conversion to do it. With the right parts the factory based torsion bar suspension has just as good, if not better, suspension geometry than any of the coil over kits available in their off the shelf form.

Look at the Hotchkis Taxi. They did a tire comparison on the TireRack track, using the TireRack test driver. He put down faster lap times with that 4-door B body than he puts down with a modern 3-series BMW that he drives for a living testing tires. Same track, same driver, same tires, 4 door B-body vs modern 3 series BMW, with a driver that has way more hours in that BMW and has by his own admission not driven older pro-touring style cars. I think that says a lot about what these cars can do with their torsion bars.

Here's the video, it's little long. You can pretty much just start at the 3minute mark. At 4:30 you can watch the Hotchkis Taxi kicking butt. And at 6:00 min TireRack's professional driver goes into how the Hotckis Taxi is a full second a lap faster than the BMW 3 series, even though Woody (tirerack's driver) had never driven a "protouring set up car" before the test and has probably turned thousands of laps with that 3 series.



There was also a direct head to head with the '70 Hotchkis Challenger vs a 2010 SRT8 Challenger. The SRT8 lost on the skid pad to the Hotchkis Challenger, yup, torsion bar E-body. At the time the comparison was made (like over 10 years ago?) the Hotchkis Challengers suspension set up was pretty novel. By today's standards, with the parts that are now available that weren't when the Hotchkis Challenger was built, well, that build isn't radical at all- heck my Duster has a more aggressive set up now than the Hotchkis Challenger did then. This is the article, it's pretty wonky at this point as Edmunds must have changed their website several times since then. But the info is all there.

2010 Dodge Challenger SRT-8 vs. 1970 Dodge Challenger

You can also look at Andrew Chenoweth's Challenger, who pretty routinely puts down faster autoX laps than modern challengers

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/_7...SdnXIKkHHVmZQbLuFwM_4oizKMZlHfHy5yHHASYmkNR_o

Now, that said, yes it can be done, but it won't be cheap to upgrade all the suspension, the chassis (with either suspension type), AND have the horsepower to make it close. And it won't be cheap regardless of which suspension you choose, there's a ton of work to be done either way.
 
And the mods you do make may not need to be overly extreme- remember, you're starting out with a car that's probably about 1500 pounds lighter than that Challenger...
 
The specific car I’m competing with cost $50,000 Canadian and I’m figuring on spending that much over five years on my car. Shipping is going to be a killer but that’s a given in the great white North.
 
schmidt1873 said:
The specific car I’m competing with cost $50,000 Canadian and I’m figuring on spending that much over five years on my car. Shipping is going to be a killer but that’s a given in the great white North.
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i think you can get there for that. you'll need to get creative and do a lot of your own work but i think it's doable.

figure on spending a solid 20% of that on the suspension alone.

first priority, after deciding a direction to take is to stiffen up the chassis.
 
schmidt1873 said:
I’m relatively new to unibody cars, what’s the best way to stiffen the chassis without adding 1000 pounds of steel?
Click to expand...
See my post above.
Frame connectors, K frame welding and reinforcement, USCT's frame stiffening kit(s).
I have also seen people go to the extreme of fully welding the subframe/unibody structure. Not a lot of weight added, but you'll be investing in a bunch of welding rod/wire.
 
I have a 2014 srt8 Challenger 6 speed and a 1966 Barracuda with a 500+Hp small block and a 5 speed. It is street legal, has been lightened extensively to 3040 Lbs. It has 1.14 torsion bars, Hotchkis 1 1/4 front bar and Firm feel rear bar, frame connectors, adjustable upper control arms, boxed lower control arms, Hotchkis/fox adjustable front shocks, double adjustable Viking Rear shocks and composite 200Lb rear leaf springs. It also has four wheel disc brakes, 17" wheels and tires and a Borgeson box. The list goes on and on but you get the idea. TRhe 66 is very limited on tire width. I have had both cars on road courses and short course autocrosses, they are totally different cars to drive. The Cuda you really have be up on the wheel and slowly get into the throttle coming off the corners and its braking is not near as good as the Challenger, its more fun to drive but you have to be aware of the limited traction and braking. The Challenger is at 4300 lbs, it is lowered with updated springs and sway bars and wider than stock tires, headers and after market exhaust and a tune. The brakes are far superior and are of coarse anti lock it also obviously has traction control as well. The thing is quick but its a tank. It will have a bit of understeer if you push it but it gets off the corners way better. The Cuda has a better power to weight ratio but you cant get the power down. So in my experience with both cars as mentioned above you can make an early A body run with an Str8 Challenger with a torsion bar suspension. If I was to build an other a body I would do it torsion bar but work on things like moving the engine back for a better weight balance and getting wider tires in it and huge brakes, if you had that and the power you could very easily put a new Challenger on the trailer in my opinion.
 
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