727 Shudder in Reverse, then rattle on 1-2 shift

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JWB

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Hello again,
I'm looking for some advice. I have a 1975 International Scout, which has a 727 as the automatic. I rebuilt the transmission about 10,000 miles ago with a kit from SMR up in Canada. It has worked perfectly since the rebuild. However, on the way home from work last week, I put it in reverse to back into the garage and it shuddered. It was not just slipping. It would grab, release, grab, release, etc. I drove it around the block to test it, and it was a consistent shudder in reverse only. Not knowing what to think of this, I parked it and went on the internet. Based upon what I read, I thought it might be that the low/reverse band was a little loose. I pulled the pan and adjusted the low/reverse band. I torqued it to 72 inch pounds and then backed it off two turns. Before I did this, I marked the head of the adjustment screw with a sharpie, and I noticed it took about 2.75, or maybe 3, turns to hit 72 inch pounds, so I figured it was loose. So I torqued it to 72 and then backed it off two. I drove it, and the shudder was gone, but now there was a rattle on the 1-2 shift. It backed up fine and also drove fine in manual low. I did some more research and I figured maybe I was a bit off with my 2 turns, so I took the pan back off and simply backed off the adjustment screw 1/4 turn. It sounded like perhaps the low/reverse band was just a touch too tight and it was holding low when I went into second, thereby causing the rattle. I did not re-torque it to 72. I figured that when I adjusted it the first time, while I was on my back, I simply thought I backed it off 2 turns, and I was off by just a 1/4 turn. After backing it off by 1/4 turn, I just put it all back together and the shudder is still gone, but the rattle on the 1-2 is still there. I am beginning to wonder if it is something other than the band? Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
 
Hello again,
I'm looking for some advice. I have a 1975 International Scout, which has a 727 as the automatic. I rebuilt the transmission about 10,000 miles ago with a kit from SMR up in Canada. It has worked perfectly since the rebuild. However, on the way home from work last week, I put it in reverse to back into the garage and it shuddered. It was not just slipping. It would grab, release, grab, release, etc. I drove it around the block to test it, and it was a consistent shudder in reverse only. Not knowing what to think of this, I parked it and went on the internet. Based upon what I read, I thought it might be that the low/reverse band was a little loose. I pulled the pan and adjusted the low/reverse band. I torqued it to 72 inch pounds and then backed it off two turns. Before I did this, I marked the head of the adjustment screw with a sharpie, and I noticed it took about 2.75, or maybe 3, turns to hit 72 inch pounds, so I figured it was loose. So I torqued it to 72 and then backed it off two. I drove it, and the shudder was gone, but now there was a rattle on the 1-2 shift. It backed up fine and also drove fine in manual low. I did some more research and I figured maybe I was a bit off with my 2 turns, so I took the pan back off and simply backed off the adjustment screw 1/4 turn. It sounded like perhaps the low/reverse band was just a touch too tight and it was holding low when I went into second, thereby causing the rattle. I did not re-torque it to 72. I figured that when I adjusted it the first time, while I was on my back, I simply thought I backed it off 2 turns, and I was off by just a 1/4 turn. After backing it off by 1/4 turn, I just put it all back together and the shudder is still gone, but the rattle on the 1-2 is still there. I am beginning to wonder if it is something other than the band? Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.

When you say rattle, can you explain more please? Or take in car video and post it.
 
When you say rattle, can you explain more please? Or take in car video and post it.
At the moment it shifts from 1 to 2 there is a slight rattle that comes from the tranny. It does not make the noise on light acceleration. It does it only when it is moderate (or more) acceleration. It is only there for about 1/2 second, but it is there and unmistakable. It kind of sounds like when you are trying to open a childproof bottle of something without pressing down on the lid hard enough. You know that click-click-click sound (but faster)? I doubt I could capture it on a recording.
 
At the moment it shifts from 1 to 2 there is a slight rattle that comes from the tranny. It does not make the noise on light acceleration. It does it only when it is moderate (or more) acceleration. It is only there for about 1/2 second, but it is there and unmistakable. It kind of sounds like when you are trying to open a childproof bottle of something without pressing down on the lid hard enough. You know that click-click-click sound (but faster)? I doubt I could capture it on a recording.

I assume automatic shift valve body with a shift kit?
Is this when you manually shift 1-2 or when it is in Drive?
 
I assume automatic shift valve body with a shift kit?
Is this when you manually shift 1-2 or when it is in Drive?
Correct. Automatic shift valve body with a shift kit.

I have not tried manually shifting it from 1-2. The noise, so far, only appears when in Drive and it shifts automatically from 1 to 2.
 
Correct. Automatic shift valve body with a shift kit.

I have not tried manually shifting it from 1-2. The noise, so far, only appears when in Drive and it shifts automatically from 1 to 2.

Ok so when in Drive, the low/reverse band is not applied in first gear. The only time that l/r band is applied is in reverse or manually put in first gear. I had to ask that question being that it’s shuttering in drive when going to second gear, there is no band overlap that you could have been experiencing. Next thing I would do is adjust the kickdown band (second gear band). Torque to 72 inch pounds, and then how many turns to back it off depends on what ratio apply lever you are using. You said you rebuilt it yourself so I’m sure you know what ratio apply lever is in the trans. Also, is the kickdown band a flex band, or solid band? Also is there a heavy duty/reinforced band strut in the trans or is it stock?
 
Ok so when in Drive, the low/reverse band is not applied in first gear. The only time that l/r band is applied is in reverse or manually put in first gear. I had to ask that question being that it’s shuttering in drive when going to second gear, there is no band overlap that you could have been experiencing. Next thing I would do is adjust the kickdown band (second gear band). Torque to 72 inch pounds, and then how many turns to back it off depends on what ratio apply lever you are using. You said you rebuilt it yourself so I’m sure you know what ratio apply lever is in the trans. Also, is the kickdown band a flex band, or solid band? Also is there a heavy duty/reinforced band strut in the trans or is it stock?
Okay, that makes sense (the low/reverse not applied in first gear when in Drive). I will adjust the kickdown and then post up results. Just for grins and giggles, before I adjust the kickdown, I will drive it in manual low and then shift to second to see if the noise is still there.

Unfortunately, I am out of town for the next week, so I won't be able to crawl under there for a couple weeks. At least this truck is not my daily driver. Yes, I will check and determine the apply lever ratio. I am sure I have it written down. I will also determine what type of kickdown band I have as well as the band strut. Thank you very much for your help.
 
Okay, that makes sense (the low/reverse not applied in first gear when in Drive). I will adjust the kickdown and then post up results. Just for grins and giggles, before I adjust the kickdown, I will drive it in manual low and then shift to second to see if the noise is still there.

Unfortunately, I am out of town for the next week, so I won't be able to crawl under there for a couple weeks. At least this truck is not my daily driver. Yes, I will check and determine the apply lever ratio. I am sure I have it written down. I will also determine what type of kickdown band I have as well as the band strut. Thank you very much for your help.

Anytime. I hope the band adjustment t helps. But more than anything it should point us in the right direction. The list of possibilities for this issue are very long. So gotta knock things out one at a time.
 
Anytime. I hope the band adjustment t helps. But more than anything it should point us in the right direction. The list of possibilities for this issue are very long. So gotta knock things out one at a time.
I'm back! I crawled underneath and adjusted the kickdown. It is a 4.2 lever, so I used 72 inch pounds and backed it off two and one quarter turns. No change. The awful sound on a firm 1-2 shift is still there. There is no sound on the 2-3 shift, even on hard acceleration. I also tried a manual 1-2 shift (held it in low then manually upshifted to second) and the rattle/clunk is still there. It is an awful sound. At this point, I am beginning to wonder if the rear planetary is giving up on me? Based on an operation manual on this transmission, it seems to be the most likely culprit since it is not engaged at all in 2 or 3. I still have reverse, but it does still shudder/shake ever so slightly in reverse. Thoughts?
 
I'm back! I crawled underneath and adjusted the kickdown. It is a 4.2 lever, so I used 72 inch pounds and backed it off two and one quarter turns. No change. The awful sound on a firm 1-2 shift is still there. There is no sound on the 2-3 shift, even on hard acceleration. I also tried a manual 1-2 shift (held it in low then manually upshifted to second) and the rattle/clunk is still there. It is an awful sound. At this point, I am beginning to wonder if the rear planetary is giving up on me? Based on an operation manual on this transmission, it seems to be the most likely culprit since it is not engaged at all in 2 or 3. I still have reverse, but it does still shudder/shake ever so slightly in reverse. Thoughts?

Anything is possible. The front planetary takes more of the abuse than the rear planetary but doesn’t mean the rear can’t fail. Why it shudders in reverse? Hard to say, possibly a sealing ring on the front pump stator or lip seal in the front clutch piston. But if that were the case, similar issue in 3rd would occur. So I’m not entirely sure, just going through stuff to try and help it make sense.

With an automatic shift valve body, lots of things can get happen. I would triple check your kickdown linkage and throttle valve adjustment. If they are spot on, it may be time to pull this trans out and go through it. Especially with the possibility of a hard part starting to fail. If it were mine, I’d be pulling it out.

RJ
 
Anything is possible. The front planetary takes more of the abuse than the rear planetary but doesn’t mean the rear can’t fail. Why it shudders in reverse? Hard to say, possibly a sealing ring on the front pump stator or lip seal in the front clutch piston. But if that were the case, similar issue in 3rd would occur. So I’m not entirely sure, just going through stuff to try and help it make sense.

With an automatic shift valve body, lots of things can get happen. I would triple check your kickdown linkage and throttle valve adjustment. If they are spot on, it may be time to pull this trans out and go through it. Especially with the possibility of a hard part starting to fail. If it were mine, I’d be pulling it out.

RJ
Thank you, and I agree. The sound is so bad at the shift I am confident that if I give it full pedal at the shift, the thing will grenade. I'll post up what I find after I pull it out.
 
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