A Body upper controll arm problem/question

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George R

George R

Mopar Nutcase
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I work with a guy who drives a 71 Ply Duster daily. Its pretty beat up, but he has a short commute to work, and it runs good. Slant 6 automatic.

Problem is, a few years ago it was hit on the right front fender by a lady who backed out of her driveway just as this guy was driving by. The woman's car hit his Duster directly on the R/F tire, and pushed the frame rail in a bit where the upper controll arm adjusting bolts are. He replaced the sheetmetal, and installed a set of big bolt pattern disc brakes at the same time from a junkyard parts car.

The problem he has now is that because the frame is slightly tweeked inward, he can't get enough camber/caster to the front end on that side in order to align it properly. I suggested he install those offset upper control arm bushings from Moog. He bought them, and we installed them. It helped some, but the car still needs more positive camber and caster on the R/F, and we have both adjusters all the way out already. When he turns the steering wheel it looks like the tire is going to fall off because of negative caster, and camber.

He is now thinking about buying a set of tube upper controll arms with those adjustable rod ends thinking he will have more adjustment with those compared to the stock Mopar upper arms and hopefully get the alignment close to spec.

My question is, should he buy those (expensive) tube upper controll arms, or is there a longer Mopar upper arm we can use....like say from a B or C body car? He needs (judging by eye) to bring the upper ball joint OUT by about 1/2" or so.. at least.

I hate to see him spend over $250 on those upper arms if it can be repaired more inexpensively using stock parts. He's an older guy who doesn't have much spare coin, but he really likes this old Duster and wants to keep driving it. I know he cannot afford to buy, insure and pay taxes on a more modern car anyway.

He comes to me for help, and I don't know how to help him fix this problem.

Any help or suggestions will be passed on. Thanks in advance, guys!

George
 
If it were me, I'd get in there with a hydraulic jack and push the frame back out.
 
X2, get FSM and get the front end measurements and see just how far out everything is. Then figure out a way to pull it all back into alignment. Jack, come along Etc.
 
It needs to go to a frame shop, but adjustable tubular arms may do the trick cheaper. I did rebuild the front end on a beat early a-body that had a tweaked driver side upper control arm mount. After carefully looking at the situation I cut the welds and used a porta-power to push it back into alignment (the mount), but all I had was one outside ear (the front one) that wasn't straight with the other ear for that bushing.
 
Thanks for the responses.
I don't know what it would cost to have the car put on a frame machine (or where a frame machine is located) but I doubt he would be able to afford it. Besides, it's his only car and without it he won't be able to get to work without depending on someone else to pick him up and take him home everyday.

Does anyone have an adjustable upper arm that they could take a measurement for me? I would need to know the length from the center of the mounting bolt holes to the center of the ball joint stud, with the rod ends adjusted out as far as would be safe.

Thanks again for the responses.

George
 
I've been looking on the net, but didn't find anything......does anyone make an offset upper ball joint? That would probably do it too.

George
 
any good body shop can fix it. "A shop with a shark or Genesis measuring system" Most shops charge 4 hrs setup and measure add usually 2 hr min to fix frame time usually @ 70 hr add alingment put you at 500 bucks. It really should be fixed right. Moving the pivot location can make some funky angles in the front geometry. Changing the arm length may help but just masks an underlying issue......
 
Can you decrease the camber/caster setting on the left front to better match the right side. (bandaid fix :pirate:)

How bad are the specs on the right side?
 
Id be willing to sell him one adjustable arm if that's the route he wants to take. I can get you that dimension later today if it's still needed.
 
Kyle, that would be tremendously appreciated!
Please let me know that dimension when you get time.

Ya know what, if the cost is affordable, I'll buy him the one for the other side. He's done a lot for me in the past as well.

George
 
To stay on the safe side, it looks like you can push the centerline of the balljoint out about .300". If this is not going to be enough to get the caster back in line of where it should be...I could probably get another .060 or so when I weld in the tube adapters. Let me know...
 
curleysracecars said:
To stay on the safe side, it looks like you can push the centerline of the balljoint out about .300". If this is not going to be enough to get the caster back in line of where it should be...I could probably get another .060 or so when I weld in the tube adapters. Let me know...
Click to expand...
Kyle,
Thanks for that information.
We probably won't be able to measure his car until Friday after work, or Saturday morning, but from what I remember, that might just do the trick.
I'll definately let you know by Saturday afternoon.

Will we be able to use his existing ball joints in these arms?

Send me a PM when you get time with the cost for a set of these arms.

Thanks a LOT for the help.

George
 
I'd take a close look at the upper control arm could be bent.The ones I have seen wrecked usually bend the control arm as the frame mount is much stronger.
And the parts he took off the other disc brake car could be bent too,could be another reason the car was in the junk yard
 
GEO said:
I'd take a close look at the upper control arm could be bent.The ones I have seen wrecked usually bend the control arm as the frame mount is much stronger.
And the parts he took off the other disc brake car could be bent too,could be another reason the car was in the junk yard
Click to expand...
I thought about that myself, Geo. I looked at the new A arm (it's still in the car so it's hard to tell) but it looked OK to me.
The front end on this thing is so full of grease I had to use a wire brush to get it to where I wouldn't be totally black from crud after working on it! LOL

I'm going to see what Curley's Racecars needs for a set of those arms. I'll probably split the cost with the guy. He's done a lot for me, not only at work but outside work as well. He's a really good dude, just doesn't have any spare coin. Doesn't drink or smoke, not a gambler or anything, just an older dude with big bills so I want to fix this thing as best I can for him. It doesn't have to be perfect, but just good enough to be safe. Right now there is NEG caster on the right side, and POS caster on the left side so the car pulls hard to the right when he drives it. He can live with the pull, but with the camber and caster off on that side, the tire goes to a wierd angle when turned in either direction, and I know it's going to go through tires if I don't fix it.

Hopefully that 3/8" or so Kyle spoke about will be enough to get us in the ballpark.

I told the old man this morning that I might be getting a replacement part for his car, but I didn't tell him what it was. He was pretty happy when I told him about it, and that I thought it would help his problem.

George
 
Has anyone checked the toe setting on this car since the accident? If the toe is off far enough, it will make the tire look really weird when turning.
 
6pk2goDemon said:
Can you decrease the camber/caster setting on the left front to better match the right side. (bandaid fix :pirate:)

How bad are the specs on the right side?
Click to expand...

You cannot compensate caster & camber on the opposite side to correct a problem on the damaged side. You wil most likely cause a tire wear problem(camber only). With the ecentric adjustment bolts it's unlikely you could change caster that much without adversely affecting the camber.
The car really needs to be pulled. Any "problem solver" is not intended to correct such issues as a bent frame. I'd hate to spend the money on adjustable arms etc. & then find out I still fell short of the intended corrected angle & have to pull it anyway. If the car is worth anything $500 is not much to spend to have it right.
How about tracking the woman down who hit him & getting her to pay toward it?
 
The owner of the car is "daily driving a beat up 71 Duster" and needs some assistance. I don't believe taking THIS car to a frame shop is in the cards.

And YES, you can compensate caster/camber on the opposite side to help correct a drivability problem on a damaged vehicle. (Band-Aid)

Since no alignment specs have been posted in this thread, how do we know it couldn't be compensated for with caster/camber on the opposite side?
 
oldkimmer said:
...........U could also put on 68-70 B body lower control arm.......there 1/2 in shorter.........kim..
Click to expand...
I never knew that. Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
Lonewolf3165 said:
You cannot compensate caster & camber on the opposite side to correct a problem on the damaged side. You wil most likely cause a tire wear problem(camber only). With the ecentric adjustment bolts it's unlikely you could change caster that much without adversely affecting the camber.
The car really needs to be pulled. Any "problem solver" is not intended to correct such issues as a bent frame. I'd hate to spend the money on adjustable arms etc. & then find out I still fell short of the intended corrected angle & have to pull it anyway. If the car is worth anything $500 is not much to spend to have it right.
How about tracking the woman down who hit him & getting her to pay toward it?
Click to expand...

6pk2goDemon said:
The owner of the car is "daily driving a beat up 71 Duster" and needs some assistance. I don't believe taking THIS car to a frame shop is in the cards.

And YES, you can compensate caster/camber on the opposite side to help correct a drivability problem on a damaged vehicle. (Band-Aid)

Since no alignment specs have been posted in this thread, how do we know it couldn't be compensated for with caster/camber on the opposite side?
Click to expand...
Well, changing the caster/camber on the opposite side would, to some degree at least, eliminate the pull, but the problem would still remain that the tires would wear out pretty quickly. Right now I can see the inside edge of the R/S tire starting to "feather".

I don't think the car has been to an alignment shop the whole time he's owned it, so I have no idea where the toe setting is, but with the steering wheel straight, the tires are pointing straight ahead. If the toe setting is off, it isn't off by much. Only time you an SEE a problem is when the wheels are turned. Like I said, he doesn't have too much money to spend on this "repair", so as long as the caster/camber is close to spec so it doesn't go through tires he'll be OK with it, even if it does pull to the right while he drives it.

I agree with all of you guys that say this is a band-aid fix, but he doesn't have too much money, and the car is pretty beat already. Spending $500 on a frame pull (if thats what it would cost?) will most likely over-ride the value of the car. LOL
If I could buy a set of adjustable A arms for a couple of hundred dollars, and we split the cost, he can afford that (and so can I) and it will keep this old bomb on the road.
If using a B body lower arm will work, that'll be even better.

Anyone have a Right Side, B Body lower control arm they wanna sell cheap?? LOL

George
 
$500 on a frame pull is not that much money if it fixes a good reliable car as opposed to buying a $500 car that would likely also need work.

If the car has been hit hard enough to drastically affect camber and caster then toe has been affecting also. You cannot adjust camber/caster without it affecting toe. Camber will affect tire wear, but generally won't eat tires fast. Caster has no affect on tire wear. Toe will cause all kinds of steering effort and drivability issues. Before buying any parts you should get the car on an alignment rack and found out what is going on.

You should see what the wheels on my valiant look like when they turn caster +5 camber-1. It goes down the road straight and easy.
 
Contrary to popular belief, it is virtually impossible to SEE the accuracy of the toe setting by eye :rolleyes: At least check it the best you can w/ a tape measure before spending any of your $$

Like McN mentions above, out of spec camber will wear tires much slower than an incorrect toe setting.
 
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