A-body vs fmj spindle for handling?

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Well i don't believe that.
That "editor" doesn't know what he talks about in lots of instances.
Weigh them yourself and see, if you have both styles, in your inventory of parts.

I have both kinds, I'll see if I can free up some time to weigh them.

I don't know about 3 pounds, but I do recall the FMJ spindles being lighter to the point that it's noticeable if you pick one up.

Given the choice, I'd take the 3 pounds if it makes them stronger.
That's my 2 cents.
How much does two pennies weigh?

It doesn't necessarily make them stronger though. The A-body spindles carry a thicker casting in areas that wouldn't improve the strength, just weight along for the ride.

I’m not sure if a camber change chart from 20 yrs ago qualifies as extensive analysis, but if memory serves, the camber curve and the roll center height are both worse than the A spindle.

First off- a camber, roll center, caster, and toe change chart from 20 years ago would be no different than one today if done at the same alignment and ride height. Assuming it was done properly. Nothing changed, the geometry of the spindles is same, the frame is the same, the suspension points are the same, etc. All of the parts in question have the same geometry as 20 years ago, so, all things being equal the chart would be too. If you have a suspension program you could make a fancier chart and plot, but beyond that the analysis was as extensive as it needs to be.

The camber curve was better on the FMJ spindles, by almost 1/2 a degree. The roll center was better with the A-body spindles, so was the toe change. But the SAI was better on the FMJ spindles. It's all in the Hot Rod article linked above, no need to guess.

The whole argument for the FMJ spindles was that if you're running wide, sticky tires the improvement in the camber gain would outweigh the increase in bump steer. Wide tires resist toe changes, and magnify the effect of camber gain. So on a handling car, the FMJ's advantages might outweigh the drawbacks. All the changes are pretty minor for a street car. On a track car they're not insignificant, but you'd have to be pretty dialed in to notice IMHO.

What "qualities"? Seems to me the A body spindles were pretty darn good enough to win the first seven places in the NASCAR compact car series in 1960. I think it's splittin hairs at best. Spreading incorrect info at worst. Without plotted graphs of camber, caster, SAI and included angles, there's no way I would advise one against the other.

Again, the charts are published in the Hot Rod article linked above. So is the SAI and everything else. You don't have to guess, it's all there in black and white. The changes are relatively minor. It's not something you notice driving around town or by the "seat of your pants". It might show up on a stopwatch, but I would wager that there aren't very many drivers here consistent enough to prove it even against a stopwatch.

I posted this question on moparts as well but I’m curious to hear what the a-body folks think on the subject. Just curious what everyone’s take is on the a-body vs Fmj spindle in a handling application? It seems as though the fmj spindle is not only lighter but has better “numbers” than the a-body counterpart with the exception of have a higher roll center and slightly worse toe change on extreme extension. I’m personally building an a-body and an e-body with handling in mind and have both sets of knuckles to chose from. Which should I use?

You seem familiar with the article, it lays it out pretty well. If you truly wanted to know how it would effect your car specifically you'd have to repeat that comparison yourself using your car with the ride height you intend to run and the alignment you want. All of those things would have an effect. The car in the article was lowered 1", so the numbers would change some if you ran lower or higher than that.

I've run both A and FMJ spindles on my Duster. It has FMJ spindles on it currently, I run 275/35/18's up front so if anyone would see a benefit from improved camber gain it would be me. I've only driven my car on the street, and in daily driving and even spirited mountain driving I can't tell the difference between the two spindles. Not saying that there isn't a difference, the numbers don't lie. But as I said it's not really a "seat of your pants" difference. I didn't notice any additional bump steer, so, that may be the most important distinction. I run my car lowered a good 2" from stock so my roll center is low to begin with. My car also sits slightly higher in the back too, so if anything my roll centers are probably closer front to back with the FMJ spindles. And that's an important distinction, you get a better balanced car if the front and rear roll centers are equal.

With the E-body, remember that the E-body spindles are in the same category as the B/R and FMJ spindles. They're already taller. Running FMJ spindles on the E doesn't change the spindle geometry any that I'm aware of if you're talking about 73+ E body spindles. The '70-72 spindles would be the same except for the smaller inner wheel bearings. The casting is different, so there is probably a weight difference between the FMJ and the E-body spindles. But as far as I know the geometry is the same. I ran FMJ's on my '72 Challenger as well, cheaper to get ahold of than anything else as they used to show up in the local wrecking yards.
 
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I have both kinds, I'll see if I can free up some time to weigh them.

I don't know about 3 pounds, but I do recall the FMJ spindles being lighter to the point that it's noticeable if you pick one up.



It doesn't necessarily make them stronger though. The A-body spindles carry a thicker casting in areas that wouldn't improve the strength, just weight along for the ride.



First off- a camber, roll center, caster, and toe change chart from 20 years ago would be no different than one today if done at the same alignment and ride height. Assuming it was done properly. Nothing changed, the geometry of the spindles is same, the frame is the same, the suspension points are the same, etc. All of the parts in question have the same geometry as 20 years ago, so, all things being equal the chart would be too. If you have a suspension program you could make a fancier chart and plot, but beyond that they analysis was as extensive as it needs to be.

The camber curve was better on the FMJ spindles, by almost 1/2 a degree. The roll center was better with the A-body spindles, so was the toe change. But the SAI was better on the FMJ spindles. It's all in the Hot Rod article linked above, no need to guess.

The whole argument for the FMJ spindles was that if you're running wide, sticky tires the improvement in the camber gain would outweigh the increase in bump steer. Wide tires resist toe changes, and magnify the effect of camber gain. So on a handling car, the FMJ's advantages might outweigh the drawbacks. All the changes are pretty minor for a street car. On a track car they're not insignificant, but you'd have to be pretty dialed in to notice IMHO.



Again, the charts are published in the Hot Rod article linked above. So is the SAI and everything else. You don't have to guess, it's all there in black and white. The changes are relatively minor. It's not something you notice driving around town or by the "seat of your pants". It might show up on a stopwatch, but I would wager that there aren't very many drivers here consistent enough to prove it even against a stopwatch.



You seem familiar with the article, it lays it out pretty well. If you truly wanted to know how it would effect your car specifically you'd have to repeat that comparison yourself using your car with the ride height you intend to run and the alignment you want. All of those things would have an effect. The car in the article was lowered 1", so the numbers would change some if you ran lower or higher than that.

I've run both A and FMJ spindles on my Duster. It has FMJ spindles on it currently, I run 275/35/18's up front so if anyone would see a benefit from improved camber gain it would be me. I've only driven my car on the street, and in daily driving and even spirited mountain driving I can't tell the difference between the two spindles. Not saying that there isn't a difference, the numbers don't lie. But as I said it's not really a "seat of your pants" difference. I didn't notice any additional bump steer, so, that may be the most important distinction. I run my car lowered a good 2" from stock so my roll center is low to begin with. My car also sits slightly higher in the back too, so if anything my roll centers are probably closer front to back with the FMJ spindles. And that's an important distinction, you get a better balanced car if the front and rear roll centers are equal.

With the E-body, remember that the E-body spindles are in the same category as the B/R and FMJ spindles. They're already taller. Running FMJ spindles on the E doesn't change the spindle geometry any that I'm aware of if you're talking about 73+ E body spindles. The '70-72 spindles would be the same except for the smaller inner wheel bearings. The casting is different, so there is probably a weight difference between the FMJ and the E-body spindles. But as far as I know the geometry is the same. I ran FMJ's on my '72 Challenger as well, cheaper to get ahold of than anything else as they used to show up in the local wrecking yards.

I understand. All I'm saying is this. It's totally splittin hairs to remove your A body spindles, throw them in the ditch and get the FMJ stuff. Splittin hairs. I'm stickin to it.
 
I don't know about 3 pounds, but I do recall the FMJ spindles being lighter to the point that it's noticeable if you pick one up.

Is this 3 pounds for EACH spindle, or for the pair of them, for total weight?
Is 3 pounds really gonna make, any kind of difference, in the real world of things?
After all, your not designing brakes for the next generation Martian land rover.
 
I understand. All I'm saying is this. It's totally splittin hairs to remove your A body spindles, throw them in the ditch and get the FMJ stuff. Splittin hairs. I'm stickin to it.

Oh I totally agree, it is splitting hairs. Like I said, on the street I don't think the difference is noticeable at all. I certainly didn't notice it. For a full on autoX or track car maybe. If I had 73-76 A-body spindles on the car already I wouldn't go looking for FMJ spindles to swap them out. Now, if you're doing a disk conversion using the 73+ disks then I could see looking for FMJ spindles instead because they're usually cheaper and easier to get ahold of. I wouldn't turn down either kind if I was looking for a set of 73+ spindles though.

I think the most important thing is that Ehrenberger's "disk-o-tech" article that talks about "ball joint overangling" and catastrophic geometry issues with the FMJ's is total BS. I wonder how many people missed an opportunity for a cheap 73+ disk upgrade because of that piss poor speculation on his part.

Is this 3 pounds for EACH spindle, or for the pair of them, for total weight?
Is 3 pounds really gonna make, any kind of difference, in the real world of things?
After all, your not designing brakes for the next generation Martian land rover.

The article isn't clear. I suspect it's total weight for the pair, they're not really that different side by side. I haven't weighed a set before to compare, the FMJ's feel lighter to me but it's not a night and day kinda difference.

It is unsprung weight, so a couple pounds here and there can make a difference. On a street car it doesn't really matter. For a competition car, every little advantage adds up.

To me the FMJ spindles look better. It's just an aesthetic thing. The 73-76 A-body spindles look a little clunkier, like the production guys ran with the first casting mold they came up with cause it "worked the way it was" and it was cheaper than taking the time to clean it up- "just a spindle, who cares". The FMJ's look like someone took the extra time to make sure casting form really matched the nice sexy design drawing- smoothed out the corners, filleted out the excess metal, put a little effort into the details. Both work just fine.
 
Oh I totally agree, it is splitting hairs. Like I said, on the street I don't think the difference is noticeable at all. I certainly didn't notice it. For a full on autoX or track car maybe. If I had 73-76 A-body spindles on the car already I wouldn't go looking for FMJ spindles to swap them out. Now, if you're doing a disk conversion using the 73+ disks then I could see looking for FMJ spindles instead because they're usually cheaper and easier to get ahold of. I wouldn't turn down either kind if I was looking for a set of 73+ spindles though.

I think the most important thing is that Ehrenberger's "disk-o-tech" article that talks about "ball joint overangling" and catastrophic geometry issues with the FMJ's is total BS. I wonder how many people missed an opportunity for a cheap 73+ disk upgrade because of that piss poor speculation on his part.



The article isn't clear. I suspect it's total weight for the pair, they're not really that different side by side. I haven't weighed a set before to compare, the FMJ's feel lighter to me but it's not a night and day kinda difference.

It is unsprung weight, so a couple pounds here and there can make a difference. On a street car it doesn't really matter. For a competition car, every little advantage adds up.

To me the FMJ spindles look better. It's just an aesthetic thing. The 73-76 A-body spindles look a little clunkier, like the production guys ran with the first casting mold they came up with cause it "worked the way it was" and it was cheaper than taking the time to clean it up- "just a spindle, who cares". The FMJ's look like someone took the extra time to make sure casting form really matched the nice sexy design drawing- smoothed out the corners, filleted out the excess metal, put a little effort into the details. Both work just fine.

I'm all for it for instance, since the SBP Kelsey Hayes stuff is drying up. Hell yeah. If I was going to go BBP I'd seek some out myself. I think the safest answer is "yeah, they'll WORK" and leave it right there. lol
 
I wonder if the engineers saw a way to save a little weight without compromising strength and just went with it.
Weight is the enemy of all aspects of performance.
In the late 70s, GM lightened the cylinder heads on their small block engines and durability didn't seem to suffer. To me, that is just good sense. Why make something heavy if the weight serves no function?
 
I believe E body spindles are the same as 73 and up A, are they not?

FMJ is the same as 73 and up B, again IIRC.

The whole point on the FMJ to me was-

I've seen exactly two 73 and up A body cars at the U pull yards since the late 1990's.
(I go to six yards in three counties every year if not more frequently)

I've seen more than two dozen F and M body cars in that same time frame (and two J's).
With a few late 75 and up B cars showing up as well.

If the handling differences are negligible, then the supply difference becomes a non-issue.

E-berg ragged the FMJ part pretty hard in his article.

BigBlockDart refuted it with tangible evidence, and I believe them.

Case closed for me.
 
I believe E body spindles are the same as 73 and up A, are they not?

FMJ is the same as 73 and up B, again IIRC.

The whole point on the FMJ to me was-

I've seen exactly two 73 and up A body cars at the U pull yards since the late 1990's.
(I go to six yards in three counties every year if not more frequently)

I've seen more than two dozen F and M body cars in that same time frame (and two J's).
With a few late 75 and up B cars showing up as well.

If the handling differences are negligible, then the supply difference becomes a non-issue.

E-berg ragged the FMJ part pretty hard in his article.

BigBlockDart refuted it with tangible evidence, and I believe them.

Case closed for me.

B and E body spindles are the same 70-72 and 73-74. So E and FMJ spindles are the same height, or about 3/8” taller than A-body spindles. I didn’t check the SAI to know if that changes with the later B and FMJ spindles compared to the E’s, but the height is the same.

The A-body spindles were the unique ones, just like they were the only line to get the 5x4” bolt pattern, the small ball joints, etc.

The big block dart article is a re-print of the one that was written by Bill Reilly and originally appeared in Mopar Muscle and is now hosted by Hot Rod and linked above. E-berg ragged on the FMJ spindles but he never did any actual testing or analysis. He was completely wrong, and he’s never admitted as much despite having multiple opportunities to do so. When he wrote up “part 2” recently that covered that god-awful Liberty rear brake conversion he even threw in a little side note patting himself on the back for the original article, with no mention that his speculation on the FMJ spindles was incorrect.
 
I believe E body spindles are the same as 73 and up A, are they not?

FMJ is the same as 73 and up B, again IIRC.

The whole point on the FMJ to me was-

I've seen exactly two 73 and up A body cars at the U pull yards since the late 1990's.
(I go to six yards in three counties every year if not more frequently)

I've seen more than two dozen F and M body cars in that same time frame (and two J's).
With a few late 75 and up B cars showing up as well.

If the handling differences are negligible, then the supply difference becomes a non-issue.

E-berg ragged the FMJ part pretty hard in his article.

BigBlockDart refuted it with tangible evidence, and I believe them.

Case closed for me.

Yes exactly. It's a case of finding something that will work VS not finding it at all. I've stood eye to eye with E-Berg and was not impressed. I'm sure he felt the same.
 
F M J's were produced in the radial era.
Required a little different suspension geometry, yes?

I run em, work fantastic, plenty of woah w manual pedal.
Sold a couple dozen sets for A conversions.
 
I posted this question on moparts as well but I’m curious to hear what the a-body folks think on the subject. Just curious what everyone’s take is on the a-body vs Fmj spindle in a handling application? It seems as though the fmj spindle is not only lighter but has better “numbers” than the a-body counterpart with the exception of have a higher roll center and slightly worse toe change on extreme extension. I’m personally building an a-body and an e-body with handling in mind and have both sets of knuckles to chose from. Which should I use?

Use the FMJ knuckles if you have them. They are taller and lighter and have more room for a large brake caliper. I use the FMJ knuckles when I build a car with serious brakes. For a regular street car it doesn't matter but if you're building for performance then every little bit helps.
DSC_3609 (Large).JPG
 
IIRC, you can use the largest disc, 11.95, correct. With the proper caliper bracket of course...

Use the FMJ knuckles if you have them. They are taller and lighter and have more room for a large brake caliper. I use the FMJ knuckles when I build a car with serious brakes. For a regular street car it doesn't matter but if you're building for performance then every little bit helps.
View attachment 1715390817
 
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