A998 & TF-1 - Harsh 2-3 shift

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olei

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Hi all,

I have done about 1800 miles on my rebuilt A998 transmission using the TF-1 shift kit.

1) The 2-3 shift is way to harsh (I would guess very close to overlap).
Included in the shift kit was the front clutch restrictor meant to be used on the 727. Can this one be used, or would it be too restrictive for my setup? I do have a lathe, so I can make my own restrictors any size I want.


2) Harsh engagement.
I believe this is due to my high idle, but I would like to have this confirmed. Right now I'm idling at 1000rpm, and in gear it drops to about 800rpm (if I remember correctly).
If I'm going from idle and into any of the forward gears, it will jerk into gear. Going into reverse is nice and smooth, in any case.
If I make a quick shift from reverse and into forward gear, it is mosly a smooth engagement. I would believe this is because of the already lower RPM from when being in gear.

Now don't forget I did a mistake while doing the shift kit (in case this might have caused some other issues);
Rebuilt A998 - No upshift/only 1st gear


Beside these two concerns, the transmission has been working great. The 1-2 shift is perfect! The ATF fluid is clear (actually hard to read the fluid level), and I'm using a ATF+4 fluid.

Clutch pack clearances (wet/soaked):
Front: .075" (5 disc)
Rear: .025"
 
I shouldn't experience harsh engangement running 1000rpm at idle?

I can't recall removing the accumulator spring. If a blocker rods needs to be in place when removing the accumulator spring, then no. Doesn't the accumulator affect 1-2 shift as well (1-2 shift is perfect)?

I forgot to mention I run a Hughes Perfromance XTM torque converter, which is pretty tight.
 
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I shouldn't experience harsh engangement running 1000rpm at idle?

I can't recall removing the accumulator spring. If a blocker rods needs to be in place when removing the accumulator spring, then no. Doesn't the accumulator affect 1-2 shift as well (1-2 shift is perfect)?

I forgot to mention I run a Hughes Perfromance XTM torque converter, which is pretty tight.

A 1k idle very well could cause harsh engagements, and the blocker rod doesn't have to be there if the spring is not for the trans to work.
It should if the spring is removed, but that doesn't mean it is or was put in.
It's possible there is no spring and also not have the blocker rod. (which you also wouldn't want)
 
If that is the case (missing spring), then It will show next time I drop the pan. But I would really like a plan B as well before doing so.

Clutch apply restrictor are never used on the A904's?
 
If that is the case (missing spring), then It will show next time I drop the pan. But I would really like a plan B as well before doing so.

Clutch apply restrictor are never used on the A904's?

The spring is between the valve body and case so VB has to at least get really loosened up to see it.
Restrictors are usually for a 2-3 bind up mostly on 727's , but I have been known to use things where I want them.:D
I say put the restrictor in and see what she does.
Or you might even consider a small cotter pin in the 3rd oil supply hole in the separator plate.
 
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If that is the case (missing spring), then It will show next time I drop the pan. But I would really like a plan B as well before doing so.

Clutch apply restrictor are never used on the A904's?
I've never had to use the restrictor on a 904 series but that doesn't mean your trans might not benefit from one. The number and rate of springs in the front servo also has an effect on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. The stiffer and more springs the softer the 1-2 shift and the quicker 2nd gear releases. If it only has 1 spring and it's not real stiff you'll get a good firm 2nd gear shift but it'll be slow coming off possibly creating overlap into 3rd
 
Did u use a wavy snap ring in the front drum. I like 100 thou with 5 clutches. Kim

Looking at pictures from the disassembly it appears to be a straight snap ring.

IMG_0334.JPG
 
Could I also use a restrictor on the rear clutch apply port to soften my engagement, or would this also cause other issues?
 
Ur tight converter and high idle combined are causing ur harsh engagement . U can u get it to idle slower? I wouldn't restrict the rear apply. How many springs in the front servo. Do they have 2 and u removed 1? Kim
 
I'm running a 107 LSA camshaft, so it doesn't idle very well.

Front servo has only one spring I believe.
 
It's not big, it's the Whiplash at 208°/214°. Idle is around 900-1000rpm in park. If I put in reverse first, than directly into drive, the harsh engagement is reduced a lot and sometimes not noticeable.
 
I have not tuned that roller, but you are right, 208/214/107 is not big.
And it's a roller, so the advertised would normally be about 246/252/107
But it's a Whiplash, so who really knows what the seat to seat is on it, Hughes doesn't publish it.
No matter, it can't be ridiculous.
But your idle is, and therein lies your problem. You need to get the idle down to a more sane 750 in Neutral, or less.Once your idle speed is down, the harshness will go away.
If you have to jam on the brakes when in gear, then the idle is too high or the stall is too low,or both.
If you cannot get the idle down,and the engine not stall when putting it into gear;something is wrong. The problem could be; in the carb,or in the compression,in the cam install,or the TC. It's usually a carb adjustment,but not always.
You need to;
Make sure the PCV is installed,correctly plumbed, and working
Set your T-port sync,Then set your idle speed with;timing and/or idle air bypass.
The other option is to install a TC with a higher stall.

That cam sounds great, when the tick-over is 650 in gear!
 
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It's not big, it's the Whiplash at 208°/214°. Idle is around 900-1000rpm in park. If I put in reverse first, than directly into drive, the harsh engagement is reduced a lot and sometimes not noticeable.

That is sorta odd, cuz when you put it into reverse, the VB selects the Hi-drum and the L/R band, and it sends full maximum pressure to the servo. In manual low, the VB disengages the hi-drum, and engages the forward clutch, and reduces the line pressure drastically. The L/R band is used in both cases. But two different clutches are used. And both of those usually have a cushion spring in them to soften the hit.
But when shifting from Reverse to Drive, the L/R band is also disengaged, so the VB is busy pushing the servo piston to "off",and the hit is usually softer.
When shifting from Park/Neutral, into Drive, that forward clutch is engaged, and if the cushion spring is not in there then the hit with a high idle can be pretty harsh.I'm guessing somebody took it out. This harsh engagement into Drive is pretty hard on the overrunning clutch.
No big deal, after the idle speed is reset, it should be much better,maybe just fine.
 
But your idle is, and therein lies your problem. You need to get the idle down to a more sane 750 in Neutral, or less.Once your idle speed is down, the harshness will go away.
I have no chance getting it that low. When I initially fired up the engine first time, the idle mixture was very rich (primaries set way open, exposing transfer slot). This made me able to idle at a lower RPM. Would low vacum engines take a richer idle mixture?

If you have to jam on the brakes when in gear, then the idle is too high or the stall is too low,or both.
I don't have to put much effort keeping it standing still. The converter has a advertised stall speed rating at 1800 RPM.

If you cannot get the idle down,and the engine not stall when putting it into gear;something is wrong. The problem could be; in the carb,or in the compression,in the cam install,or the TC. It's usually a carb adjustment,but not always.
You need to;
Make sure the PCV is installed,correctly plumbed, and working
Set your T-port sync,Then set your idle speed with;timing and/or idle air bypass.
The other option is to install a TC with a higher stall.
I degreed the camshaft when installing it.
I do have the T-port sync set.
I run the M/E Wagner dual flow adjustable PCV valve in fixed orifice mode (due to the rough idle/low vacuum). If I remember correctly I'm pulling roughly 12 inches of vacuum at idle.
Initial timing set at 24 degrees. Could it be that this engine would run with locked timing? I'm at the DCR limit for pump gas.

I just recently modified my carb for idle bypass through the center of the main body. I haven't done much testing after this, because I have to fix some clearance issues between water pump and radiator first.
 
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Comments in the quote
I have no chance getting it that low. When I initially fired up the engine first time, the idle mixture was very rich (primaries set way open, exposing transfer slot). This made me able to idle at a lower RPM. Would low vacum engines take a richer idle mixture?


I don't have to put much effort keeping it standing still. The converter has a advertised stall speed rating at 1800 RPM.


I degreed the camshaft when installing it.
I do have the T-port sync set.
I run the M/E Wagner dual flow adjustable PCV valve in fixed orifice mode (due to the rough idle/low vacuum). If I remember correctly I'm pulling roughly 12 inches of vacuum at idle.
Initial timing set at 24 degrees.
Could it be that this engine would run with locked timing? I'm at the DCR limit for pump gas.

I just recently modified my carb for idle bypass through the center of the main body. I haven't done much testing after this, because I have to fix some clearance issues between water pump and radiator first.

something is not right.
Actually that is being kind.

Ok,This is what I would do;
I would;
Disable the vacuum advance system. Close your home made idle air bypass. Reset your fancy PCV system to what the factory system would pull,or I would Temporarily plumb in a Factory PCV.Make sure the bowl vent is open.
Then I would;remove the carb, back out the curb idle screw until the primaries are fully closed,keep it there with one hand and flip it over. Then I would screw the curb idle screw back in until the Transfer slot exposure is square to a little taller than wide. I would not touch this screw again, for the rest of this post. I would Close the mixture screws to 2 turns on any carb but a Holley. On a Holley close it up to 1 turn. I would make sure the secondaries are closed up tight,and that there are no holes drilled through any of the throttle blades.
I would disable the power brake booster and plug all non-essential vacuum taps.
If you have adjustable valves I would reset them all to 1/2 turn lifter preload with that hydraulic roller.

I would Put a vacuum gauge on it,Put it in neutral, and chock the wheels or set the park-brake, or both,lol.
I would check the oil and coolant levels.
I would make sure the choke works
I would hop in,recheck that the tranny is in neutral, and start it up.
Then I would let it warm up, on a fast idle of about 1400.
While that is going on I would prove that on a metering rod carb, as soon as the engine starts, those rods are sucked down and stay down.
After the engine is warmed up, I would kick off the fast-idle, then back off the idle-timing to 14/16 degrees. Then I would check the tach and the vacuum gauge.
Now, if the engine stalls; I would Jack up the rear end and get the tires off the ground,using jackstands, then start her up again, still in Neutral. If it stays running now and the wheels are going round and round, something is wrong in the tranny, or in the TC. I would Apply the brakes.If the engine stalls again, I would replace the TC.
>But if the above made no difference, and the engine won't stay running, Then I would look at the vacuum gauge again. The supplied carb and ignition settings should have gotten her a nice idle at 750ish, and I have no idea about how much idle vacuum that cam should pull, but I can guess around 10 or perhaps an inch either way. If it's not there, I would start her back up and set her on one of the fast idle cam steps; the lowest that keeps her running. then I would go hunting for a vacuum leak. The first place I would look is on the bottom of the intake. I would flip the PCV valve out of the valve cover, and seal all openings into the crankcase. I would re-plumb the Vacuum gauge to the dipstick tube. I would start her back up still on the fast-idle cam, and watch the gauge. If I see a vacuum develop on that gauge, I'll be pulling the intake off, to fix it. If I can't find a flange leak, I will be checking the intake for porosity.
But if no vacuum shows up on the gauge, and the CC is fully sealed, then I would be checking all the usual places for leaks.
> But if the vacuum in the manifold, as initially checked, WAS 9 inches or more;Then I would be looking for a rich condition. I would first look down the primaries and make sure there is no dripping going on in there. If I see it, that will be corrected now.
Then I would pinch the rubber fuel line, and wait, watching the tach. If the Rpm goes up, then the fuel level is too high. If the rpm immediately begins to fall, then it is too low. If it stays the same for about 30 seconds and then begins to drop, then it is just right.
So then I would fix the float level, if required.
Let's say the engine still will not stay running on the provided settings; Something is still wrong.
So next will be a compression test. If you really are at the limit for pump gas, then with iron heads your compression should be about 165psi, and if aluminum, it should be 185 to 200. Of course,ideally,every cylinder will be the same.
Lets say they are all the same but nowhere near those numbers. The next test will be a quick-test to see if you got the cam degreed close.
The quick test is just to see about where the centerline is, and if I need to dig deeper. So off comes the passenger side valve cover and all the rocker gear, leaving the pushrods alone.. I would put #1 on TDC compression. I would go to the #6 pushrods, and stick a piece of masking tape on one of them where it was easy to see from the manifold side. Then I would pull out those two #6 pushrods and keeping them properly oriented, I would wrap a strip of masking tape around each one, at that chosen position.Then I'd lay them side by side, make the bottom ends flush and draw a line across both strips at 90* to the tubes. Then I would drop them back into their respective lifters, and orient them so I could see the marks, and so that they are in their normal working positions. Now, I would eyeball those marks. They should be near to perfectly on the same line. If they are not, then I would reorient the crank up to 10 degrees either way until they are.If it takes more than 10 degrees, Then the install is probably wrong, and the next move is to pull the front off and I am looking at a do-over.
This is a 107 cam right? The install is plus 4* right? So the installed center should be 103* right. Which is 4 degrees advanced. Ideally with symmetrical lobes, I would be looking to see 4* advance on the damper. With Your cam the lobes are not symmetrical, so the lines might not line up at 4*, but certainly by 10* I would think. If the damper goes into retard then for sure the front is coming off.
But let's say the quick test is right on.
Then There is nothing left to check, your engine is possessed of the devil, and you will have to set it on fire,lol.
Ok wait.That's a joke
So let's revue.
So far we have proved the carb is not flooding, that the fuel level is correct,that the bowl vent is open, and that there are no vacuum leaks. We have returned the carb to stock settings. We have set the T-port sync, and established a reasonable base timing. We have proved that the engine is healthy, and the cam is in correctly. About the only thing we haven't checked is the ignition system.
So the next thing I would do is put the engine back together,then I would put the timing lite back on and start her up on the fast idle cam. Now I would shine the light on something shiney, and kick the fast idle off.I would be watching the strobe as the engine slows and stalls. It better be strobing all the way. If it does then That's good. Next is the plugs; are they the correct reach plugs?
If yes then I am stumped.I have done all that I know how to do.
One thing I am almost 100% sure about; if your car was in my shop, we would get to the bottom of it real quick. Certainly a lot quicker than it took to type this post out,150 minutes.
Another thing I know is that your cam cannot possibly have a seat to seat longer than the 292/292/108 cam, and I have had no trouble tuning for it, in a healthy 367.
You can jump into my program at any point, that you think applicable, skipping the parts that you are sure about. but if you get to the end and it still won't idle at 750, well, you might have to start over.

Special notes;
I would not exceed 18* of idle timing.
The more timing you give it, the higher will be the idle, and vise-versa.
When you get stumped, pinch the correctly plumbed PCV line , and remove the valve. Slowly allow the carb to draw air there. The idle-speed should immediately begin to rise as you introduce the air.It should reach a maximum, then the engine will run ugly and finally at full opening it should slow-down and stall. That is what it should do. Now put the valve back in. It is your job to give the engine the idle air it wants. If the idle gets too high now, then reduce the idle-timing. If the idle timing gets lower than 14*,stop. Take away air instead to get the idle down. When you finally get back to 750ish, Revisit the mixture screws; making sure they fall into the correct range of about 3/4 or a bit more for a Holley, and 1.5 to 2.5 on almost any metering rod carb..At this point,You can change the curb idle setting 1/4 to 1/2 turn in either direction to correct the idle mixture screws.
And finally, check the Neutral to Drive, and Neutral to Manual-Low engagement, with the brakes applied.
 
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Are you saying tight LSA shouldn't affect my idle speed?
 
Ohhhhhh; I gotta think on that.

Ok I think I mighta stumbled on your problem.
Near as I can figure out is that the Whiplash cam was designed to be run in conjunction with long-tubes.But it's really hard to figure out with not knowing the seat to seat duration.
The thing I see is that by tightening up the LSA to 107, they have increased the overlap period drastically, from their typical fast rate cams.This period really only works with long-tubes. The long-tube headers put a "suction" on the back of the exhaust valve,into the chamber,and onto the front of the intake valve, that helps to get the AF charge get moving from the carb towards or into the chamber,before the piston starts moving down on the intake stroke.
With shorties this does not happen at the usual time, and the effect is much reduced.
The result of that is EGR; lots of exhaust remaining in the chamber at low rpm.
Your chamber is not being properly evacuated by the header at low speed, and the intake-charge is not being jerked into the chamber, so the piston has to do all the work. The result is that at low idle, the engine is barely making enough torque to keep itself running, never mind fighting the tranny.And I think that maybe why 24* of idle-timing is required. I'm starting to think you may actually have as good a tune on that engine as can be expected with the parts you are using.

The best advice I can offer is to call Hughes, and see if they can verify my theory. And until then, put post *20 on hold. You may need to either swap the cam out or get some long-tubes. And if you can get them to release the seat to seat specs on that cam,boy!, that would sure help me out.

Now also,about that cam; it probably has a very early closing intake angle, and that will trap a strong mixture, to the point that even with about 9.3 Scr, the Dcr will be quite high, perhaps too high. Have you been having trouble with detonation? or do you burn top grade fuel?
I spent some time playing with fictional numbers as to the Whiplash specs, but I don't think it would help you much, cuz I just am having a hard time imagining the seat to seat specs of that cam.
I see you are in Norway, so a phone call might get expensive, but you have other options. I feel very strongly, that you should get the info you need straight from the guy that knows.
I am very eager to see how this plays out, cuz until now I was kindof stumped.I have never tuned a combo like yours, so I'll be learning alongside you, and learning is always exciting for me.
Until then, all the best to you.
 
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Wow, thanks for your detailed reply, again!

Ohhhhhh; I gotta think on that.

Ok I think I mighta stumbled on your problem.
Near as I can figure out is that the Whiplash cam was designed to be run in conjunction with long-tubes.But it's really hard to figure out with not knowing the seat to seat duration.
The thing I see is that by tightening up the LSA to 107, they have increased the overlap period drastically, from their typical fast rate cams.This period really only works with long-tubes. The long-tube headers put a "suction" on the back of the exhaust valve,into the chamber,and onto the front of the intake valve, that helps to get the AF charge get moving from the carb towards or into the chamber,before the piston starts moving down on the intake stroke.
With shorties this does not happen at the usual time, and the effect is much reduced.
The result of that is EGR; lots of exhaust remaining in the chamber at low rpm.
Your chamber is not being properly evacuated by the header at low speed, and the intake-charge is not being jerked into the chamber, so the piston has to do all the work. The result is that at low idle, the engine is barely making enough torque to keep itself running, never mind fighting the tranny.And I think that maybe why 24* of idle-timing is required. I'm starting to think you may actually have as good a tune on that engine as can be expected with the parts you are using.
I haven't heard about shorty headers might being a issue with tight LSA before, thanks for bringing it up. It has always been to my impression that tight LSA cams make low vacuum, and need more RPM to stay alive at idle.
Hughes doesn't mention anything about header changes on their website.

This is the camshaft I run;
Hughes Engines
On the flat tapet Whiplash cam though, they do mention vacuum to be in the 9"-11" range;
Hughes Engines


The best advice I can offer is to call Hughes, and see if they can verify my theory. And until then, put post *20 on hold. You may need to either swap the cam out or get some long-tubes. And if you can get them to release the seat to seat specs on that cam,boy!, that would sure help me out.
I emailed Hughes yesterday asking about what idle quality/speed I should be able to get. I will see what they have to say about this first.


Now also,about that cam; it probably has a very early closing intake angle, and that will trap a strong mixture, to the point that even with about 9.3 Scr, the Dcr will be quite high, perhaps too high. Have you been having trouble with detonation? or do you burn top grade fuel?
I spent some time playing with fictional numbers as to the Whiplash specs, but I don't think it would help you much, cuz I just am having a hard time imagining the seat to seat specs of that cam.
I see you are in Norway, so a phone call might get expensive, but you have other options. I feel very strongly, that you should get the info you need straight from the guy that knows.
I am very eager to see how this plays out, cuz until now I was kindof stumped.I have never tuned a combo like yours, so I'll be learning alongside you, and learning is always exciting for me.
Until then, all the best to you.
My calculations gave me 9.64 SCR.
I have not been having issues with detonation, as far as I know (but we haven't been using equipment for listening to knock). I run a fuel that equals your 91 Octane.

I posted my dyno results here;
My 318 dyno results
Based on these results I feel the engine looks healthy, even though Hughes meant I should have made even more power. Being the short duration cam it is, I believe it seems about right from my power figures?

I'm very happy with how the camshaft drives, with the exeption of the idle quality. I wouldn't mind high idle RPM, but I hate that harsh engagement.
The only thing that I believe was out of spec doing the engine build, is that I run quite some lifter preload, about .110"-.120". Hughes recommends .090"-.095" using their 5006 lifters with aluminum heads, so I'm not that far off either. They told me I should be fine running the higher preload.
 
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