AFR Heads

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9secRR said:
Not a chance. Never in this born day is a Trick flow head going to flow 330.

You guys are so gullible.
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Quick story. A car I used to have ended up going 140 in the 1/4 at 3220 race weight. That’s making a little steam. W5 heads.
Those heads were on a bench that Best Machine used( high end excellent rep Mopar shop) they went 299 max. These are heads Ryan said went 330 ish.
Another set of W5 heads done by another well known Mopar head guy( even better known than Ryan) didn’t get over 300 on Vic Bloomers bench.
Moral of the story, flow numbers and benches vary, and aren’t much help in telling what a car will do at the track. Guys who do this stuff sometimes inflate numbers.
When I bought these Bloomer heads and Vic told me they were gonna work really good, I didn’t need to see any numbers, and still don’t.
 
Read through the last few pages... guys trying to climb the mountain to get the head that will make 600 hp and hold stock rockers.... well quit climbing and look down at your feet. You're tripping over them. I have them now on a 318 on the stand..... "302 heads"





:lol:
 
318willrun said:
Read through the last few pages... guys trying to climb the mountain to get the head that will make 600 hp and hold stock rockers.... well quit climbing and look down at your feet. You're tripping over them. I have them now on a 318 on the stand..... "302 heads"





:lol:
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There lucky to make 302 Hp :)
 
318willrun said:
Read through the last few pages... guys trying to climb the mountain to get the head that will make 600 hp and hold stock rockers.... well quit climbing and look down at your feet. You're tripping over them. I have them now on a 318 on the stand..... "302 heads"





:lol:
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Throw a solid roller and some compression at it and the TrickFlows will get close enough to scratch 600 lol. That kind of build is not at all what most people want though.
 
Are the cnc 205's the bloomer heads peeps are talking about.

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B3422w5 said:
I have a feeling the numbers wouldn’t blow anybody away.
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I’m sure you are correct. No matter how many times it’s said, comparing heads based on flow is a fools errand.

Even looking at flow numbers doesn’t tell you half the story.

If you’ve never used a flow bench those statements won’t make a lick of sense but it’s the truth.

There is a reason why the Bloomers don’t post flow numbers. They know the truth.
 
Cfm don't tell you everything but does give a ballpark potential.
 
Mean416 said:
There's a solid reason flow numbers sell heads, isn't there?
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Nope. You know, if you go to the Reher-Morrison website you’ll find a number of tech articles written by Reher. He covers this in one of those articles.

There may be more than one in which he covers flow numbers.

I’ll give you an example. You have two “identical” heads that both flow 300 CFM. One makes more power. Why is that?

Because there are things that bulk flow don’t tell you.

You can blindfold me and do a flow test and I’ll tell you the instant the port goes chaotic. You don’t see that on a piece of paper with flow numbers on it.

You can’t tell by flow numbers which port will deliver the best quality air flow.

Unless you are standing there, doing the test you have no idea what the port sounds like. Sound is critical. Darin Morgan has talked about this.

Never trust flow numbers when you do the math like PRH did and the flow numbers are impossible.

Same for dyno numbers. If you aren’t looking at fuel flow you have no idea if the numbers are correct or not.

When the rpm rule in Pro Stock came down and the Dodge couldn’t get out of it own way, Chris McGaha put a Dodge on his pump.

He knew by looking at the fuel flow numbers it wouldn’t make the power it needed to at the rpm NHRA mandated.

NHRA knew it when they made the rule and did it anyway.

I got kicked off yellowbullet for calling out a Pro Stock engine builder who couldn’t make a Dodge run with a gun to his head.

He said the rpm rule would save big money and save Pro Stock. I called him an idiot. He was wrong. It killed the Dodge and the Ford guys knew it did them in too. Once again, GM bought the rule book and pencil shipped the competition right out of the game.

And McGaha did an interview or maybe an op-ed and he said a year or so later what I knew when the rule came out.

It wasn’t rpm that was killing the class. It was the cost of crew travel and missed time back at the shop.

Sponsorship money was next to nothing. Payouts are a joke. Flying in a crew, housing and feeding them plus the lost time at the shop is the real killer.

The idiot engine builder should have known that since he had a front row seat to the whole **** show.

TLDR; flow numbers will lie to you. Don’t buy a head based on flow numbers.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Nope. You know, if you go to the Reher-Morrison website you’ll find a number of tech articles written by Reher. He covers this in one of those articles.

There may be more than one in which he covers flow numbers.

I’ll give you an example. You have two “identical” heads that both flow 300 CFM. One makes more power. Why is that?

Because there are things that bulk flow don’t tell you.

You can blindfold me and do a flow test and I’ll tell you the instant the port goes chaotic. You don’t see that on a piece of paper with flow numbers on it.

You can’t tell by flow numbers which port will deliver the best quality air flow.

Unless you are standing there, doing the test you have no idea what the port sounds like. Sound is critical. Darin Morgan has talked about this.

Never trust flow numbers when you do the math like PRH did and the flow numbers are impossible.

Same for dyno numbers. If you aren’t looking at fuel flow you have no idea if the numbers are correct or not.

When the rpm rule in Pro Stock came down and the Dodge couldn’t get out of it own way, Chris McGaha put a Dodge on his pump.

He knew by looking at the fuel flow numbers it wouldn’t make the power it needed to at the rpm NHRA mandated.

NHRA knew it when they made the rule and did it anyway.

I got kicked off yellowbullet for calling out a Pro Stock engine builder who couldn’t make a Dodge run with a gun to his head.

He said the rpm rule would save big money and save Pro Stock. I called him an idiot. He was wrong. It killed the Dodge and the Ford guys knew it did them in too. Once again, GM bought the rule book and pencil shipped the competition right out of the game.

And McGaha did an interview or maybe an op-ed and he said a year or so later what I knew when the rule came out.

It wasn’t rpm that was killing the class. It was the cost of crew travel and missed time back at the shop.

Sponsorship money was next to nothing. Payouts are a joke. Flying in a crew, housing and feeding them plus the lost time at the shop is the real killer.

The idiot engine builder should have known that since he had a front row seat to the whole **** show.

TLDR; flow numbers will lie to you. Don’t buy a head based on flow numbers.
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I get what your saying and agree with the premise but when you look at builds of certain levels cam, cr, etc.. and look at the hp and head flow the hp per cfm is generally in close range of one another somethimes you'll see one that surprises you. When you hear Darin Morgan talk about hp per cfm I hear him generally give is 2.4-2.5 hp per cfm causes that's the world he lives in. Most street/strip engines don't seem to make even 2 hp per cfm from what I've notice they seem to fall in the 1.7-1.9 hp per cfm, does that mean your guaranteed to make that no but generally you should be able with the right build some may need a little more help then others. And yes an engine that makes 1.7 vs 1.9 or more can be a huge power difference I'm just saying there is a general correlation between cfm and hp or we wouldn't use it at all.
 
273 said:
I get what your saying and agree with the premise but when you look at builds of certain levels cam, cr, etc.. and look at the hp and head flow the hp per cfm is generally in close range of one another somethimes you'll see one that surprises you. When you hear Darin Morgan talk about hp per cfm I hear him generally give is 2.4-2.5 hp per cfm causes that's the world he lives in. Most street/strip engines don't seem to make even 2 hp per cfm from what I've notice they seem to fall in the 1.7-1.9 hp per cfm, does that mean your guaranteed to make that no but generally you should be able with the right build some may need a little more help then others. And yes an engine that makes 1.7 vs 1.9 or more can be a huge power difference I'm just saying there is a general correlation between cfm and hp or we wouldn't use it at all.
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Ok. Then buy your **** off flow numbers. Because that’s easy and takes zero thinking.
 
273 said:
Did I say that?
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Thats exactly what you are saying. You are saying I have zero flow bench experience and I want to buy heads so I’ll use flow numbers.

And as a safety net I’ll use port volume as my back up.

Again, why do YOU think Bloomer isn’t publishing his flow numbers? Could it be they might be considered “low”? And if they are “low” compared to say the TF head, which head would you buy.

You’d buy the head with the most “flow”.

The Bloomers are not stupid. They get it. That’s why their stuff makes power. They didn’t port for flow numbers to sell heads. They developed their heads for horse power.

Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. Tom Alston

The Bloomers don’t have the advertising budget of TF or the corner on cheap heads like SM.

Again, you are saying you buy heads off flow numbers, which obviously you have no way to test and verify.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Thats exactly what you are saying. You are saying I have zero flow bench experience
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Yes I have zero, but I am able to read others flow and dyno charts and see correlations trends etc..
Newbomb Turk said:
and I want to buy heads so I’ll use flow numbers.

And as a safety net I’ll use port volume as my back up.
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Never said that. Strawman argument.
Newbomb Turk said:
Again, why do YOU think Bloomer isn’t publishing his flus numbers? Could it be they might be considered “low”? And if they are “low” compared to say the TF head, which head would you buy.
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Agree
Newbomb Turk said:
You’d buy the head with the most “flow”.
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Not necessarily, I buy the one that makes most power for a given build.
Newbomb Turk said:
The Bloomers are not stupid. They get it. That’s why their stuff makes power. They didn’t port for flow numbers to sell heads. They developed their heads for horse power.

Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. Tom Alston

The Bloomers don’t have the advertising budget of TF or the corner on cheap heads like SM.
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Wasn't even talking about Bloomer
Newbomb Turk said:
Again, you are saying you buy heads off flow numbers, which obviously you have no way to test and verify.
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No, I'm just saying cfm does have a place, cfm is just not gibberish, a 200 cfm head generally ain't gonna make more power than a 300 cfm one built to the same level, but yes a 280 cfm could make more power than a 300 cfm so yes cfm alone don't tell you everything but doesn't tell you nothing either was my point. There is a correlation between hp and cfm obviously there's other factors too.
 
From what I understand (not saying I'm right) eg. two heads with same flow curve, the better the port design/shape the higher the velocity you can successfully use (smaller csa and volume) before port chokes, higher velocity = better cylinder filling = more power.

So obviously port flow is just one part but is a part.
 
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273 said:
From what I understand (not saying I'm right) eg. two heads with same flow curve, the better the port design/shape the higher the velocity you can successfully use (smaller csa and volume) before port chokes, higher velocity = better cylinder filling = more power.

So obviously port flow is just one part but is a part.
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When I get back to the shop I’ll take a picture of a decades old Superflow statement.

It’s still true today.
 
Read the paragraph below 6.0 Valve Sizes.

Then think it through. If we installed a 2.125 valve in a 273 head, how good would that be?

Valve size is as much related to port size as it is bore size.
 
I believe MOST of you guys are right about the fact that all benches may be different and Horsepower is the true defining factor of a head. I've posted this dyno sheet before and I'm posting it again.
This pull was made after my Eddy's were hand ported by the dyno owner, Doug Domhoff. He was the guy who stood with me through the whole missed on this combo thread. His dyno is not friendly. He does mostly certified circle track stuff and some NHRA classes.

Those numbers are BEFORE the Mopar guy worked the head over and BEFORE there was a drastic performance improvement. So to that end, whatever the hell those flow numbers I posted should be or can't be, they upped the game dramatically.

Wonder what that dyno number would be now? Oh yeah. Don't forget my Super Victor is worked over now also.

dyno.jpg
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Read the paragraph below 6.0 Valve Sizes.

Then think it through. If we installed a 2.125 valve in a 273 head, how good would that be?

Valve size is as much related to port size as it is bore size.
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It will be awesome and flow like it told me it would on the flow bench.........

Please don't bring piston displacement, stroke and bore size not to mention piston speed into a discussion about head flow.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Read the paragraph below 6.0 Valve Sizes.

Then think it through. If we installed a 2.125 valve in a 273 head, how good would that be?

Valve size is as much related to port size as it is bore size.
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What does that got to do with if cfm has much merit when it comes to performance, I started off saying I basically agree with but cfm has more merit then you seem to give it credit for.

CFM, velocity, port size are interrelated, if you know two of them you basically can figure out the third, you can't change one without at least effecting another. CFM obviously matters and for those that are not racing especially in a highly competitive race classes that has especially vague performance goals could do worse than shop by what a head flows.
 
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