Alignment Woes

[Dart Into Traffic]

Hello All. I'm looking for feedback on a recent alignment I had performed (yesterday actually). I'm pretty sure I'm not happy with it. I will provide the car details to hopefully head off some questions at the pass.

1) The car I'm working on is a 1974 Dodge Dart Swinger, Factory 318 car with factory AC
2) I just completed a complete front end rebuild using MOOG rubber bushings and MOOG ball joints. There is not one old bushing or ball joint, or idler arm or pitman arm on the car now. The power steering box is a new rebuild unit as well. Shocks are crappy, but new. Will upgrade later.
3) I installed the MOOG offset bushings on both upper control arms, and yes, I was very careful to watch that I installed them in the correct direction.
4) The car had the factory .87 "340" torsion bars because it's an AC car, but they were sagging so I replaced them with Firm Feel. .94 bars. This is the only aftermarket component on the car.
5) Wheels and tires are Mopar rallye 14 X ? Tire size 215/70R14.
6) I set the suspension height within the tolerances of the FSM using their method of measuring point A to point B and having a difference of 1-7/8." My point is, the car is not lowered or raised a weird amount.
7) I went to the alignment shop with half a tank of gas per the FSM, trunk equipped with spare tire equipment, basically in driving trim.
8) NO sway bar. The car didn't come with one. I may be adding one later, but it will be a minute.

Now, for the questions. **Note, I am NOT looking for performance going around turns. I'm looking for straight line, high speed stability.

1) Please tell me that the lobe on these cam bolts should NOT be facing up. It looks weird and they are unsupported up in the air like this. The bolt head position can be achieved by having the lobe face down. Am I just being nit-picky? (I am a Mopar guy, it's a given).
2) I've included a picture of my alignment specs. ***I went in there knowing they were way off. I deliberately set the front cam bolts all the way out, and the rears all the way to hopefully start with as much caster as possible and then subtract some as needed to get the camber correct.

3)*** I went in there asking for ask much caster as possible and got the middle of the FSM recommendation. I told them NOT to use 1974 specs because they were out of date. The tech swore this was the best setup as he had run it on Darts before. I swear it handled better before I took it in even though the toe was so off. Please provide your recommendation for this setup for HIGH SPEED STABILITY/Interstate Travel.
4) The tech told me if he set it up with my my way ( 3 degrees caster, -.25 camber,) "it would drift right." Well, after using his specs...it drifts left. I don't care much about "the crown in the road." I'm on long interstates out West. Is it wrong to have the specs for both sides be the same? Will that cause drift?

Thank you all for your input.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Actual specs look pretty good. If it drifts left with those specs, cross the two front tires.

 

[Inertia]

By the pix, it would appear that the cams are all pretty much "centered" in their adjustment.
I believe there should be ample movement to add additional Caster, to gain more directional stability.
We're it mine, with correctly installed offset bushings (K7103), I would expect to be able to achieve almost 3*+ caster with the cams cranked properly, frame straight.
This chart is what we now set the new radial tires.
The factory specs ( 0* to -1 1/4*) are for bias ply tires,.
Good luck
jmo

 

[413]

They screwed you, and they don't know what they are doing. The camber is silly and why so little caster? Who sends a car out with those specs? Only someone who knows little, and didn't test drive it. Or just thinks old cars all drive bad.

Do you have power steering?

That aside, did they flip the eccentrics or did you? They need to be flipped over. Get the camber closer on each side and add caster.

 

[replicaracer43]

That's a pis poor alignment job. I wouldn't even trust there specs, notice how the before and after shows different readings for rear toe and camber? Yeah right, that didn't change in real life pal.

 

[replicaracer43]

And you had near 6 degrees of positive caster with the camber close enough to tweak before he touched it, so the guy was completely clueless, and/or he WAS trying to set it to old specs.

 

[Dart Into Traffic]

Answers to replied questions:
1) I did NOT have the lobes of the bolts facing up. They were horizontal when I went in as I had the rear bolts as far in as possible and the fronts as far out as possible.
2) Yes, it is a power steering car.

Supplemental: Is it ok to have both sides set the the same spec? Or does that cause drifting?

I'm with you replicaracer43, I think this is a "piss poor alignment."

 

[WV64Signet]

This might be helpful

‘68 Polara Alignment by the book

Last year when I finished putting my car together I got a Quick Trick Alignment system. I figured that two trips to an alignment shop would pay for it. Plus most don’t know how to do it anyway. I did the first alignment last year. Now that I have a couple of thousand miles on it I figured my new...

www.forcbodiesonly.com

 

[72bluNblu]

The alignment shop used the factory specs, 100%.

Most shops will, and most techs don’t know enough to understand that the factory specs are for bias ply tires and are incorrect for radials. Although even if they do understand that most shops will not set a custom spec for liability reasons. And you can explain until you’re blue in the face, but they won’t understand that they have a higher liability with the factory specs.

Other than the toe settings your initial alignment was better than what you left the shop with. A little evening out of the camber and caster would have sufficed, and the toe adjustment.

As for setting the caster and camber evenly, it can cause the car to pull to the right a little if there’s a heavy crown on the road. But I’d rather have that than the alternative, which is your car pulling you toward the opposite lane if there’s no crown. Most shops will set a little cross caster, but I set my car equally side to side. On a smaller crowned road you’re doing more steering anyway, and it’s easier on the freeway if it just goes straight.

The vast majority of alignment “techs” are complete morons. They have zero understanding of suspension geometry and handling, they’re just making the red turn green on the computer.

 

[replicaracer43]

I could have made one adjustment on the pass rear cambolt, and set the toe with a set of toe plates and it would be 100% better

 

[72bluNblu]

I could have made one adjustment on the pass rear cambolt, and set the toe with a set of toe plates and it would be 100% better

I was thinking the same thing, that car was really close to being done except for the toe. A tweak or two on the cam bolts depending on what you wanted and it would have been done.

 

[Dart Into Traffic]

Dang it. Thank you for your feedback 72bluNblu and replicaracer43. I DID....specifically......tell them not to use factory specs for the reason you guys listed above. I must have told them 4 or 5 times that the original specs were out of date. I did not forget to tell them that. They said if I didn't like it, to bring it back. I don't, so I will, and go back to my before caster numbers. I really appreciate all this detailed feedback.

 

[MV8]

I suggest asking for 1 deg neg cam, 6 deg caster, 0.277 deg total toe, both sides reasonably close to equal. Which way the cams face is not critical. Those specs may show red on the chart. If they say they don't want to be sued for deviating, just say you want to see the screen when done and not necessarily take it with you. Yes, annoying.

 

[Dart Into Traffic]

I suggest asking for 1 deg neg cam, 6 deg caster, 0.277 deg total toe, both sides reasonably close to equal. Which way the cams face is not critical. Those specs may show red on the chart. If they say they don't want to be sued for deviating, just say you want to see the screen when done and not necessarily take it with you. Yes, annoying.

Good tip MV8. I'll remember that.

 

[72bluNblu]

Unfortunately I seriously doubt that shop will use the SKOSH chart.

There is another trick, just tell them it’s a 2013 Dart 2.4L. Tell them to squint really hard or something, but it’s a 2013 Dart. If that’s what they enter into the computer, you’ll leave with a pretty darn good alignment for your set up.

These are those specs-

And if they make it green with these specs, you’ll have a good alignment. A little extra caster would be nice especially if you had wider front wheels, but with your 215/70/14’s this will work pretty darn well. It should also leave them some wiggle room to get the sides equal, so it shouldn’t be all that hard to get these specs.

 

[Dart Into Traffic]

72bluNblu..... that's BRILLIANT!! I like those numbers. I can just say I'm getting senile in my older years and completely mistook my 2013 Dart <wink-wink> for a '74. I thought they asked was year I was.

Very helpful. You guys are awesome.

 

[413]

You can almost align it yourself with That printout and knowing the eccentric positions. Tweak it a bit and it's done.

 

[RustyRatRod]

That's a pis poor alignment job. I wouldn't even trust there specs, notice how the before and after shows different readings for rear toe and camber? Yeah right, that didn't change in real life pal.

Yeah I think they manipulated somethin.