Aluminum 833OD behind a 440...your thoughts

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TylerW

TylerW

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Hey guys:

I have a bud with a Dart Sport. It currently is running a "warm" 440 and 833(non-OD), 8-1/4 with 3.23 gears.

My bud's current endeavor is to build an aluminum 833OD for the weight savings, to get a lower first gear and a higher 4th gear. I can't say I disagree with that but he also is obsessed with finding and using an aluminum A/F tail housing, which is nearly impossible to find, other than buying a new one.

So, I personally feel that Mopar apparently never used an aluminum 833 behind a big block for good reason and especially never used aluminum tail housings in except in light cars * to the best of my limited knowledge*.

My bud is actually my older brother so please no caustic personal attacks. Otherwise, workable idea? Nonsense?
 
You know what man, I'm going play devil's advocate.


A supporting anecdotal example is the NV3500 that will physically fit behind a 360, but because of the torque rating, and undesirable gear spreads, people steer away from it, name call, etc...

But, those that do use it, and have experience with it offer simple advice that I'd think would apply here:

Keep fresh oil in it.
Don't neutral drop it.
Don't clutch dump it.
Don't powershift it.
Don't beat on it with drag slicks.
DON'T ABUSE IT, FIRMLY USE IT!

Coupled with the fact you don't have steep rear gears, and it resides in a fairly light car; I'm going to say hell yes!

Make sure the u-joints in good shape, greased, and are properly degreed, and the driveline is balanced well, this should help with any troublesome issues that may arise with an aluminum extension housing.

Let er' eat, and let the flame begin!

Here is an inspirational NV3500 in a fullsize ram with a 360:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqi1vuNbs-8"]Dodge Ram - YouTube[/ame]
 
with a 440 and only 3.23 gears I say tell bud forget it. a 440 does not need a lower 1st and with 3.23 who needs overdrive? I ran one for a while in my 340 duster, and 4th is 1:1, 3rd is overdrive, so in high gear the power goes thru the cluster gear=more noise and vibes. the aluminum overdrive was in 1975+ a+f bodies and was all aluminum except side cover. mine was in great condition when I bought it in 1991, and when I sold it recently for $300. also the output is 27 spline, standard a833 is 30
 

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There tougher than many make them out to be in the forum discussions.
No need to be worried. Just because they make the 833 in stronger versions
such as the iron case & 18 spline doesn't mean the lesser models are a bad risk.
Total myth from my experience.
I have ran the aluminum od transmissions behind some strong 440s
over the years and have never broke a single one. Believe me when I tell you I did not pamper them. Quite the opposite.
I always used big tires and even in vehicles such as pickups that you wouldn't consider light weight.
I would not recommend using one in a designated drag car but they will handle
what you can give them on the street. Slicks and a sticky starting line can break about anything.
Even a 18 spline or a dana eventually with enough hp. Go ahead and treat them mean.
 
I would not do so for an entirely different reason. I think, with 3.23 and the wide gearbox split "I" would be completely disappointed with performance.

"The formula" back then for the 69 383 RR, no options, jus' yer average RR was a 4 speed and 3.23. PERFECT gearing for general street use.
 
FUGITABOWDIT.

-Firstly, what 67Dart said.The rpm drops are ridiculous for long-winded engines.The ratios are 3.09-1.67-1.00-.71/.73......The %drops are; 54%-60%-71/73%. That means if you typically outshift 1st in city traffic at 2800/22mph(with 3.23s), your rpm will drop to .54 x 2800=1540. Do you see a problem with that? Ok so now you accelerate to 45mph in 2nd. Thats 3000rpm, and shift into direct 3rd. Rpm is1800. Now you're gonna pull that direct gear to 60/2400 or 70/2800.And finally into O/D @1700 to 2000rpm. Now imagine your warmed over BB idling down the road at 1700 to 2000.Depending on how warm your cam is, at this rpm there is still not enough airflow through the intake system to completely prevent reversion. So you will have a tough time getting the a/f cleaned up enough to take advantage of the reason for the o/d in the first place.
But it gets worse. Say you're out playing around, banging through the gears. If you forget about how weak the o/d gear is and bang it in there;POOF its gone. Even at 1/2 throttle, that warmed over BB will dynomite that gear. And when it spews its shrapnel throughout the box, who can say what you will have left,by the time you come to a stop?
But it gets worser.Back to banging gears. Say you wind it out in first to 6000/48mph, and hit 2nd. You will come in at 6000 x .54= 3240. Your BB better be making some pretty good torque to get out of that hole.So anyway, about a minute and a half later you've pulled 2nd to 6000, and shift into 3rd/Direct. You're doing 89mph@3600rpm; another deep,deep, hole.So you're gonna want to pull those 3.23s to 115/4600.
This is all messed up.It will be terrible in town, terrible at the track, and not get any decent gas-mileage. But it will be 35 pounds lighter.It sucks to be lighter and slower.
-Secondly, the o/d gear will not tolerate the tiniest mistake. I blew up 2 of them, to learn that.
-Thirdly, I stripped the cluster drive out of a third one, with a mild 360 (230*/549 cam and Eddy heads ).
-Put 3.55s in it, and call it done.At least for a while;until the 8.25 signs off. That BB wont notice 35 pounds
Your results may vary.
 
Ironically enough, Ike debating on pulling the OD out of my Dart for a close ratio unit myself! Now I'm not worried about it breaking behind my 170ci slant six, but the gear spacing is simply miserable and makes accelerating frustrating as hell!

My little 170 is stock, and very slow, even with 3.55fd gears. However when I turn it to 4000rpm in second, which is when it stops pulling, 3rd gear drops down to 2400rpm roughly. So far out of the power band that it feels like you hit the brakes! This probably would be much less noticeable with a torquey big block, but the problem is still there. I vote close ratio for fun, and OD only if you can't afford the fuel.
 
Wouldn't be the first 833OD behind a 440, probably won't be the last. It's been done successfully plenty of times. People sell the 833OD's short over and over again.

I've heard of a few that were run on the strip behind 440's in E bodies without issues. If the 833OD is in good condition, it will do just fine, especially on the street. The aluminum tail housings weren't just a "light car" thing, it was also a year of manufacture thing. The 1/2 ton trucks that got 833OD's had both iron and aluminum tail shafts, the early ones were typically iron, the later ones were all aluminum. I have truck 833OD's in both varieties, although they have the longer B/E style tailshaft. The early A/F body style 833OD tails were also iron, they went to aluminum later in production, so the iron A/F body tails were out of A-body's.

If your buddy is concerned about strength, and it sounds like he's putting the transmission together anyway, one thing that will dramatically improve the life of the 833OD behind that 440 is using steel bushings in the case on the ends of the counter shaft. That's typically what wears out on the 833OD, as the countershaft rides right in the aluminum case. Not an issue in low mile transmissions, but as time goes on the countershaft can wear the case, which definitely causes problems. The countershaft had looser tolerances in the 833OD than on the regular 833 to begin with, which didn't help their cause. But if the transmission is coming apart, have the case machined and install steel bushings. There's a magazine article on having this done somewhere. I'll see if I can find it because I know I've referenced it before.

Your buddy could also buy one of Passon's "Hemi OD" kits or transmissions. It has a better gear ratio spread, better mainshaft, 18 spline input, etc. It can also be installed into a cast iron case, eliminating the countershaft case wear issue. [ame="http://www.passonperformance.com/images/stories/passon_documents/Passon_Overdrive_Flyer_20091109.pdf"]http://www.passonperformance.com/images/stories/passon_documents/Passon_Overdrive_Flyer_20091109.pdf[/ame]

What I wouldn't do is run it with 3.23's. The OD gear is .71 or .73 depending on which 833OD it is. 3.73's would be a better choice, even for a 440. A lot of the /6 folks like to run them with 3.91's, but that makes 1st gear pretty darn short.
 
Here's the article on doing the 833OD rebuild and having the aluminum case machined for steel countershaft inserts.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/mopp-0110-a-833-aluminum-case-buildup/

The article is a bit overly dramatic about the issue, but hey, it's a magazine. The case wear problem, while it does occur and can be an issue, is usually a long term, wear out over a 100k miles type issue, not an acute problem. Although it can cause a pretty dramatic failure once it's worn out.

As for the strength, I can give the contact info of a gentleman on another board that ran an 833OD in his Duster behind a 440 for 8 seasons on the track as well as on the street and ran 60' times of 1.48 with it. He also broke a yoke on his 8 3/4 rear running the 833OD behind that 440, replaced the 8 3/4 and continued racing with the undamaged 833OD. Good enough for me. Yes, they can break, no, they aren't as strong as a regular 833. But they're more than strong enough to do the job if they're in good condition.
 
TylerW said:
Hey guys:

I have a bud with a Dart Sport. It currently is running a "warm" 440 and 833(non-OD), 8-1/4 with 3.23 gears.

My bud's current endeavor is to build an aluminum 833OD for the weight savings, to get a lower first gear and a higher 4th gear. I can't say I disagree with that but he also is obsessed with finding and using an aluminum A/F tail housing, which is nearly impossible to find, other than buying a new one.

So, I personally feel that Mopar apparently never used an aluminum 833 behind a big block for good reason and especially never used aluminum tail housings in except in light cars * to the best of my limited knowledge*.

My bud is actually my older brother so please no caustic personal attacks. Otherwise, workable idea? Nonsense?
Click to expand...

Original Aluminum main cases typically use the large 308 bearing so check the pilot diameter on the bellhousing. There were aluminum tailshaft housings for small or large spline mainshafts, try Passon Performance or Brewers Performance. Direct Connection / Mopar Performance used to sell both, the main case and tailshaft housing, in aluminum. Passon sells everything your friend wants new and upgraded. I would have the steel inserts installed in an original main case to restore and beef it for intended usage. Passon can also do this. Others have given their experience on the 440 / OD combination, I have none. Big blocks were only installed in "A" bodies for 67-69. That was before generally available aluminum 4 speed components. I agree that 3.23's are a great everyday gear and we used 2.76 "pumpkins" for long road trips. With the overdrive 3.91's comes close: 3.91 x .71 = 2.78 or x .73 = 2.85.
 
I have one.

It's in a d150 step side, none the less.

I don't drive it a whole lot, but I have driven it plenty and driven it hard.

No issues.

Truck was born with a 225 and the 833 O/D.

Someone swapped in a 1969 10:1 440 that sounds like it's got a small to medium cam.

It's got headers, a performer intake and now has an Eddy 750.

I can only assume the factory gears are 2.76 in the 9 1/4.

I do spend a LOT of time in second gear, and can't imagine first would be very useful with any more than a 2.94 or 3.23 rear.

I do shift aggressively into 2nd and 3rd, and it will spin the tires into both.

Power shifting into O/D is not the best idea regardless of what trans you are operating.
 
The OD trans are strong from my experience. Put one from a feather duster behind my mild 318. I had no idea what the condition of the transmission was but i put it in anyway. It had loads of miles on it, all sorts of bearing noises and 4th gear sounds terrible but, I just don't use it since I have 3.23 gears and 275/60/15 tires.

Anyway I have beat on it for a good year and a half and it doesn't sound any worse than it did when I put it in. I have done many 6,000 rpm clutch dumps and it just keeps going! Id put one behind a stock or mild bigblock with no worries.

Gear spread tire size and rear end ratio will let you know if the trans is usable. Plug them into some calculators and see if it works on paper.
 
The standard overdrive gear for the Mopar was 3.55. I have found it rare that anything else was used.....although I am sure it was. That's what my rat truck has in the Dana 70.....well, ok, it's a 3.54. Even though it's a dually, I am not worried in the least about it having trouble pulling the gear ratio differences. With a warmed over 331 Hemi, and the truck not even weighing 3K pounds, I ain't sweatin it.
 
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