another project- another wiring problem!

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barbee6043

barbee6043

barbee 6043
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I took a break from the 65 dart yesterday that was my attention last week. will go out this a m and check volt meter readings on it and see whats what??? and let it be known.....
I drug home a 62 lancer this fall. looks like orig. 170, 3 speed....under hood wiring appears totally stock. engine turns over freely. I rebuilt a carb for it, New: VR, ballast, battery, coil. I havn't yet pulled the dist.
I turned switch to "on", ( ign 1). readings: battery: 12.5 ( fully charged other day,might have used it start something ??)) 12.3 in and out of firewall. VR: 11.4 BOTH sides of it!!....... coil: pos and neg shows 11.6 , yes both sides...... (still has points dist.)...... ballast: 11.6 both sides of it.....like is say, key on ..... NOT in start mode(ign)
I can see some one has added a toggle that has current to it .... in key on position. looks like its been there many years. I will pull out front seat so I can get to see in dash hopefully this afternoon.
diagnosis???? thanks for any help..
 
The VR is doing what it should with the key in RUN but the engine not running; it is seeing too low a voltage at its supply terminal and is putting out as much as it can to the single field wire to try to command the alternator to put out more voltage.... which it can't do since it is not turning. So the VR just sits there pumping out all the current that it can to the field, in essence telling the alternator "HEY, put out some juice, stupid! Yeah, I'm talkin' to you!"

Coil + and - and baallst voltages being the same would be OK IF the points happen to be sitting with their contacts OPEN; with the points open, there is no current flow; the normal voltage drops occur only when there is some current flow. Bump the engine 'til the points are closed (or ground the coil - with a jumper to simulate closed points) and then you will see voltage drops across the coil and ballast.
 
nm9stheham said:
The VR is doing what it should with the key in RUN but the engine not running; it is seeing too low a voltage at its supply terminal and is putting out as much as it can to the single field wire to try to command the alternator to put out more voltage.... which it can't do since it is not turning. So the VR just sits there pumping out all the current that it can to the field, in essence telling the alternator "HEY, put out some juice, stupid! Yeah, I'm talkin' to you!"

Coil + and - and baallst voltages being the same would be OK IF the points happen to be sitting with their contacts OPEN; with the points open, there is no current flow; the normal voltage drops occur only when there is some current flow. Bump the engine 'til the points are closed (or ground the coil - with a jumper to simulate closed points) and then you will see voltage drops across the coil and ballast.
Click to expand...

And at that point with the key in the on position you can open your points with your finger, and should have spark out of the coil every time you do open them.
(Just an FYI) :)
 
definitely spark at the points. I will pull t he dist , and replace points and condenser. blind as i'm getting, I can see the point contacts looks pretty thin, even down in that " slantsix" leaning side HOLE that a monkey can hardly get to!!??
my old remote starter switch is bout shot, the little woman left for her little job, ( she hates to help me with a car anyway) ( why is that??????). all I can do is check things with key "on".
 
key on ( ing 1), if at the coil there is 5-6 volts at plus side and current out the neg side to points and current at the points, why would there not be spark out the center coil wire when cranking? used a known good center coil wire..
 
While you got the distributor out check that both the mechanical and vac advances work.(Dumb *** me never checked and the mechanical was froze up) !!
 
good idea! I hate buying projects when ya don't have a clue last time it ran. engine turns over all I know> LOL
the worse thing I hate about foolin with slants is t rying to do anything on the slanted side! LOL
 
When you post you need to get to the point so we can help you otherwise you have TMI to weed through.
 
I should have initially stated: can't find any spark our of the coil's center wire. inline spark tester. 6-7 v at coil plus, little out coil neg, spark at the points, perhaps ouside in light hard to see any spark. question is: it HAS to have spark at coil output doesn't it?
the other info was for diagnosis info.
sorry for the rambling.
 
Readinbg through this, it looks like the coil is not working.

Do this to isolate and test the coil by itself and eliminate everythin but the coil and its spark wire:
1. With the key off, jumper the ballast resistor and remove the points wire from the coil -.
2. Set up a jumper from ground that you can touch momentarily to the coil -. Place the coil spark wire so that the end that normally goes to the distributor is setting about 1/4" from the valve cover.
3. Turn on the ignition to RUN and touch the jumper to the coil - and then remove it; BE SURE TO NOT BE TOUCHING THE JUMPER'S WIRE WHEN YOU ROMOVE IT OR YOU'LL GET A NASTY SHOCK. You should see a good spark at the end of the coil's spark wire each time you touch and then remove the jumper to the coil -. If not, then it is either the coil or the coil's spark wire.

You can test the wire with the resistance function on your meter. Set the meter to the 20k ohm range and measure the wire's resistance end to end while completely out of the car; you should read resistance under 5k and probably lower. It might be OK a shade higher but not much higher. (Plug wire resitance is highly variable for a new wire from brand to brand, so these numbers are necessarily 'typical ballpark' resistances.)

And BTW, when measuring resistance, always set your scale, touch the leads together and confirm that you read very close to 0 ohms, and then untouch them and verify that you see the 'open circuit' reading; this pre-measurement procedure is smart to do every time you make resistance measurements, to verify the meter and your measurement techniques.
 
when you say " jumper the ballast" are you saying jump the two wires on each together I guess. that's what I did.
I tested the coil spark wire for resistance , reads 12.5, wire, coil wires out of running cars read like 5.5 for each....
I took coil spark wire off the running dart in our last episode, and a new coil that was the one on that same running dart, I get spark when I hit the coil --, but no spark at the valve cover. and that's with the coil spark wire off the 65dart that reads like 5 ohm......
I await your verdict!!!
 
Post #12 sentences aren't complete or clear, so hard to follow what you did. "hit coil --" means what? Anyway, if you spark to something, but not to the valve cover, perhaps your engine block isn't connected to BATT-. But, if that was true, the starter wouldn't work. Perhaps your distributor body is not electrically connected to the block.

To test the coil, forget about the distributor & points. Connect a jumper wire to coil-, w/ no other wires connected there,. w/ 12 V still on coil+ (via key switch/ballast or just jumper straight from BATT+). Touch it to the block, then remove. Each time you remove it, you should get a spark on the wire from the top of the coil to the block (over a small gap). Best to use an in-line spark tester ($4 HF). Use a short plug wire you trust, or just clip a test lead w/ alligator clips. Be careful what you touch or the spark may go thru you (at least the sunlight won't matter then to verify spark).

I am guessing you can find many youtube videos showing this. It is basic high school physics.
 
BillGrissom said:
Post #12 sentences aren't complete or clear, so hard to follow what you did. "hit coil --" means what? Anyway, if you spark to something, but not to the valve cover, perhaps your engine block isn't connected to BATT-. But, if that was true, the starter wouldn't work. Perhaps your distributor body is not electrically connected to the block.

To test the coil, forget about the distributor & points. Connect a jumper wire to coil-, w/ no other wires connected there,. w/ 12 V still on coil+ (via key switch/ballast or just jumper straight from BATT+). Touch it to the block, then remove. Each time you remove it, you should get a spark on the wire from the top of the coil to the block (over a small gap). Best to use an in-line spark tester ($4 HF). Use a short plug wire you trust, or just clip a test lead w/ alligator clips. Be careful what you touch or the spark may go thru you (at least the sunlight won't matter then to verify spark).

I am guessing you can find many youtube videos showing this. It is basic high school physics.
Click to expand...

when I said " hit coil --", I was referring to touching that point as my instructions from previous post. I admit not clear. I was simply trying to relate what I found.
you know, I appreciate any and all help people take the time to offer me. I admit I lack in basic electrical knowledge.
it was 50 years ago since I was in " basic high school physics". I don't claim to be the " sharpest tack in the box", but I am proud I worked 4 years to obtain a B.S. in Ag from U. of Ga. ( maybe that's makes me a somewhat educated idiot!?), not the hardest nor easiest major.
however, as I do appreciate all help from here, BUT I must say, I don't appreciate being talked down to. havn't took much crap off anyone and don't intend to start now. thank you.
 
barbee6043 said:
when you say " jumper the ballast" are you saying jump the two wires on each together I guess. that's what I did.
I tested the coil spark wire for resistance , reads 12.5, wire, coil wires out of running cars read like 5.5 for each....
I took coil spark wire off the running dart in our last episode, and a new coil that was the one on that same running dart, I get spark when I hit the coil --, but no spark at the valve cover. and that's with the coil spark wire off the 65dart that reads like 5 ohm......
I await your verdict!!!
Click to expand...

'Jumper the ballast' means connect the 2 ends of the ballast together, which can be done by jumpering the 2 wires together; the idea is to get 12V direct to the coil for the test and bypass the ballast to test just the coil.

If you got spark at the coil - when you 'hit it' (which I assume means you connected and then disconnected it from ground) it means that the coil primary is good, but no spark at the end of the coil's spark wire means that the coil secondary is open or it is internally shorting. So try a new or another known good coil.

And when you read the resistance of the oil wire as 12.5, I assume you were on the 20k scale on you meter? That coil spark wire resistance is on the high side. (As you foudn by comparison to another coil spark wire..... it is not a long wire, right?) I would replace that.
 
yes, spark at coil -- connected and then off, and a gain on, THIS coil ( on this lancer) was starting and running on the 65 dart we worked on other day. I did remove it for another "new" one on hand ( both same brand new) , so is that an indication that particular coil is O K?
new oem type plug wires for slants aren't expensive, I will pick up a set anyway.. I usually like to try to get the project running, before I buy much new parts for them. sometimes I find myself looking for another engine!
yes that was the coil spark wire that is about 10-12 inches.
I did test one plug wire for the heck of it, read like 20-25 ohms, but that wire is maybe 18 inches. thanks again for the help..
the PO( a flipper ) had lived in central mo. last 30 years or more. he thinks this car was used at a local dirt track as pace car. I removed the front seat, for pan work and to get into the dash. plaque glued to dash read: road race participant, Wentzville track, 1976. looks like it had some sort of 2 way radio hooked up,p lace for flag on front fender etc. will look for any ( non factory wiring work)?
thanks again for the input.
 
Just for future reference to limit confusion, if the meter scale is 20k, and the meter reads 12.5, for example, then the actual resistance is 12.5k ohms, or 12,500 ohms. So please report it as 12.5k, not 12.5.

Getting a spark at coil - when you remove a grounding wire is an indication that PART of the coil is OK. But the only indication that a coil is completely OK is that it produces a good strong spark out of the coil spark wire. (Assuming the wire is good.) I am not sure I am fully understanding the question.
 
my question is if the coil is working properly on that 65 dart I was having t rouble with other day, and I take it off and put it on this lancer, AND its coil spark wire is GOOD, should I not get a good spark on this lancer??? any reason not to, especially if I jump from batt + to the coil + ????
 
barbee6043 said:
... however, as I do appreciate all help from here, BUT I must say, I don't appreciate being talked down to. havn't took much crap off anyone and don't intend to start now. thank you.
Click to expand...
Try not to be self-centered. People answer not just for you, but for other readers. I wasn't referring to understanding the entire ignition system in your car, just how a coil works. It only takes a few wires to demonstrate that. Search "Faraday's Law of Induction" for more info. That is from the early 1800's. Once you prove the coil sparks, work your way up from there. The points replace your hand pulling the wire away. Not much more than that, other than how your wires route.
 
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